suicide

[tatteredpotato]

sorry i dont get it ( i use osx)

You can reformat OSX. I'm getting ready to actually (that time of the year to start fresh).

 

[surfsatwerk]

Honestly, people not helping or getting help for someone they know has some issue share in the blame in instances like this. Often times there are signs but people choose to ignore them. Let alone if they actually outright antagonize them like the mother did here.

Sounds like a wonderful plan for creating a world full of helpless victims, unable to ever change their lives. There are many resources available to people who suffer from thoughts of suicide. If you do not choose to make use of them, then nobody else is responsible for that choice.

Mothers and daughters fight. Families sometimes have very toxic relationships. None of these things are reasons for suicide.

 

[GrumpyMan]

Hmmm...yes, my ex wife's twin sister killed herself when she was only 18, such a waste, she was so beautiful. Not only do you kill yourself, but you also kill the spirit of your whole family. This one was boyfriend related I was told. Not a good thing. And she was supposedly the kindest and the most considerate of all the sisters and brothers. Go figure....sad.

 

[highland145]

Sounds like a wonderful plan for creating a world full of helpless victims, unable to ever change their lives. There are many resources available to people who suffer from thoughts of suicide. If you do not choose to make use of them, then nobody else is responsible for that choice.

Well, surfs has spoken.

 

[mvbighead]

Honestly, people not helping or getting help for someone they know has some issue share in the blame in instances like this. Often times there are signs but people choose to ignore them. Let alone if they actually outright antagonize them like the mother did here.

This is absolute and utter BS. I have a brother, and despite countless efforts by my parents, he continues to drink in excess and use drugs. One recent family trip and he was FUBAR one night, and sent my mom to tears. They have tried, and tried, and tried. It all boils down to the individual taking everything that comes at them, and never being responsible with their coping mechanism. There is ALWAYS an excuse for them to go to back to whatever it is they are doing.

In the OP's case, the mom may've sped up the process, but chances are, it would've happened one day or another.

 

[PricklyPete]

Sorry to hear man...that's gotta be tough...especially with the issues you're going through these days. Stick in there.

 

[wheresmybacon]

Im seeing a new psychologist twice a week till i get back on my game.

That's great to hear. As someone who suffered from undiagnosed and untreated depression as well as panic disorder, I can tell you my life is 1000% better since I sought professional help...and got sober.

This stuff is no different than being diabetic or any other condition that manifests itself physically. It needs to be treated if you want to have any sort of quality of life, or even life at all.

Best of luck in your journey.

 

[Modelworks]

I hate to hear when that happens. I volunteer with suicidal hotlines and almost every person I talked to they all want the same thing, just somebody who will listen to them without being judgmental. There is such a stigma attached to psychological problems and there shouldn't be. The public needs to learn that people having problems can be helped if someone takes the time . It is when you treat them as outcast and belittle them when problems start.


There was a guy in high school that would bully me all the time. The following year in 11th grade he took a gun and killed himself. I didn't know what to feel then because I hated the guy and was relieved he wouldn't be bothering me anymore but at the same time I started feeling that maybe he was just acting out at school because something else was bothering him.

 

[Blackjack200]

Sounds like a wonderful plan for creating a world full of helpless victims, unable to ever change their lives. There are many resources available to people who suffer from thoughts of suicide. If you do not choose to make use of them, then nobody else is responsible for that choice.

Mothers and daughters fight. Families sometimes have very toxic relationships. None of these things are reasons for suicide.

Yeah. You understand that many people who do this have a serious chemical imbalance in their brain, right?

 

[Modelworks]

In the OP's case, the mom may've sped up the process, but chances are, it would've happened one day or another.

Nope. I have never heard of any case of suicide where the person was supported by others and committed suicide. Often the person has no one to go to. People that commit suicide do not do it because it is an easy way out, that is one of the biggest misconceptions ever spoken. If you talk to people that have attempted suicide ask them how easy it was for them to try it ? I know for me when I tried it was the hardest thing I ever did. You realize that what you are about to do is the end, there is no help, no last minute change of mind, that it is final , and you are so scared that you feel like you could die from the fear alone. Now imagine feeling so bad , so horrible that you can overcome fear that is more than anything you ever experienced because the alternative of living the way you currently are is that unbearable.

Think about sticking your hand in a blazing fire. You know it will hurt, you know it will burn, and most people could not be paid to do it. That is the kind of fear that people who commit suicide face when they decide to proceed with it.

 

[pcslookout]

I hate to hear when that happens. I volunteer with suicidal hotlines and almost every person I talked to they all want the same thing, just somebody who will listen to them without being judgmental. There is such a stigma attached to psychological problems and there shouldn't be. The public needs to learn that people having problems can be helped if someone takes the time . It is when you treat them as outcast and belittle them when problems start.


There was a guy in high school that would bully me all the time. The following year in 11th grade he took a gun and killed himself. I didn't know what to feel then because I hated the guy and was relieved he wouldn't be bothering me anymore but at the same time I started feeling that maybe he was just acting out at school because something else was bothering him.

Wow I don't think I could do that. How many people a day do you listen to ? Have any idea what they do for a living ? Curious. Always loved to be able to understand the human mind but you really can't.

 

[Juddog]

I hate to put it like this, but a lot of psychological issues relate to how you control your own thoughts.

Think of most people's minds as untrained dogs. The mind just does whatever, acts on any impulsive thought, etc.. You have to train your mind via positive reinforcement to think of other things when you lean towards depression. That's really all there is to it, no matter what drugs you take or psychologists you visit they won't be able to truly change your ability to do this. The same way as when a dog is about to piss on the carpet and you stop it from doing so, after enough times it usually stops peeing on the carpet.

I used to struggle with depression constantly myself, and I've had a lot of bad stuff happen to me over the course of my lifetime but this is the personal way I learned to deal with it.

Just as an example: say you keep thinking about how depressed you are. Each time you think about it will essentially "reinforce" the circuit in your brain which leads you to thinking about it. In other words the more you dwell on it the more intense it becomes. What you have to do is view it essentially like a computer program. When you find your mind wandering down that same path that it has always wandered down, halt-command it and choose a different path.

In this way I have essentially reprogrammed my mind over the years to think in a thought pattern which I find more beneficial. Anybody can do it, just like anybody can lead their mind to depression no matter how good their personal life may be. It just takes a lot of mental "work" to reprogram things, and to do so requires you to step back outside of your normal mind state and examine what's going on inside your brain.

 

[surfsatwerk]

Yeah. You understand that many people who do this have a serious chemical imbalance in their brain, right?

Great so wtf has that got to do with them recognizing they have a problem and getting help? If they don't want or seek help then nobody else can fix their problem for them.

 

[Modelworks]

Sounds like a wonderful plan for creating a world full of helpless victims, unable to ever change their lives. There are many resources available to people who suffer from thoughts of suicide. If you do not choose to make use of them, then nobody else is responsible for that choice.
.

You need to understand something about mental illness and suicide. People that are suicidal have often reached the point that they have tunnel vision. They cannot see other options. While you may say they can go for help, in their mind there is no help. That belief is as real to them as the world is to anyone else. That is why it is important to reach people before they get to that stage. Before they make the decision you can reason with them and provide other options. But if you wait till they are willing to commit the act there is no talking. Everything you say will be replied with, it will never work type responses. They need someone who is still anchored in the real world to show them the errors in their thinking.

As for resources , where ? Other than the few surviving hotlines, ours lost funding, there isn't many resources. There is also a whole bunch of stigma and fear attached with it. People are afraid to go for help for being called crazy. Look at the military. Every command has counselors and psychologist. Nobody wants to go because it reflects on them badly from others. It shouldn't be that way but it is.

 

[Modelworks]

Wow I don't think I could do that. How many people a day do you listen to ? Have any idea what they do for a living ? Curious. Always loved to be able to understand the human mind but you really can't.

I don't do it now . The hotline lost funding like many of them . When I was doing it, I could talk to 5 or 6 people a night. It was everything from 12 year olds to 80 year old grandfathers. What jobs the people had didn't seem to factor into it. There were people earning tons of money and people nearly broke.

All it really takes to help people like that is listening. You don't have to figure them out or try to diagnose them . Just listen to them talk about what is on their mind and offer suggestions to the problems they are having. If they start talking like they are going to do something to themselves or someone else you try to re-assure them that they do not need to do that. Sometimes you get people that think you really don't care. That you are just saying things and not meaning it. Others that worked their handled it differently than me . I broke the rules a couple times by giving people my cell phone number to call me anytime they wanted to show that I did want to help them .

Some people want to get help but don't know how or are afraid of what happens when they do get help. So just talking them through the process of calling someone for emergency help or calming them down is needed.

It really is just about listening and trying to be understanding.

 

[Daedalus685]

Great so wtf has that got to do with them recognizing they have a problem and getting help? If they don't want or seek help then nobody else can fix their problem for them.

People don't kill themselves because they choose to (in most cases). They do it because they are vastly sick.

There are certainly examples of people refusing help intentionally. Not everyone is capable of getting help and that is a person failing of many. But no insignificant number are quite disturbed and may not realize they are in trouble. Mental illness is not simple and one can not use rationality externally to say "they should do this, it makes sense" as the individual may not be capable of thinking rationally in the least.

One of the most complicated problems in dealing with a loved one with a severe mental illness is that it is almost impossible to put yourself in their shoes. Everyone knows what it is liek to have a flu and can extrapolate to empathize with something like cancer.. But severe hallucinations, depression, mania, etc. are not easily addressed by untrained outsiders as much as they may want to help.

One cannot simply say that they are choosing not to get help any more than one can say a cancer patient is choosing to allow the cancer to spread. In some situations it may be a conscious choice.. some folks are not as strong as others.. In many getting help might be terrifying and without the ability to rationally consider it they may not be as at fault as one thinks.. Ask someone who suffered from schizophrenia or severe bipolar disorder why they let themselves go mad and you won't often be told "because I wanted to". It is a lot like being intoxicated, you are still you, you may remember bits here and there, but to expect a well thought out plan when drunk is no more reasonable than to expect it when mentally ill.

EDIT: I'm not trying to say that outsiders are to blame.. not at all. But neither is the person ill necessarily at fault.. nor can we simply say they should have gone to get help. Also that someone who is not trained to deal with issues and tries to confront the individual from a rational point of view can often make it worse. To respond with malice is even farther to the extreme. Mental abuse in these cases may not be directly responsible for the death but it doesn't help. Frankly in some cases I don't see the difference between this kind of harm and taking meds from someone with cancer. The cancer is still responsible for the death but it certainly doesn't help..

 

[Wheezer]

I know this sounds cold, but at least she did it right....so many put the gun to the side of their head pull the trigger and end up a vegetable because they miss their brain or they hesitate at the last minute which is worse than death for the family IMO.

Sorry for their loss...tragedy for the kids.

 

[surfsatwerk]

As for resources , where ? Other than the few surviving hotlines, ours lost funding, there isn't many resources. There is also a whole bunch of stigma and fear attached with it. People are afraid to go for help for being called crazy. Look at the military. Every command has counselors and psychologist. Nobody wants to go because it reflects on them badly from others. It shouldn't be that way but it is.

I understand your point. I've had people reach out to me for help and I was completely unequipped to deal with the situation. But I was able to put them into contact with people could help them.

I've had "notes" left for me on other occasions. They were failed attempts and after the fact the person admitted they intentionally misled me about how they were feeling so I wouldn't try to stop them.

I ain't no doctor and claim no knowledge beyond personal experience, but I've seen some amazing things happen to some really hopeless people once they started to willing want help with their problem. I know one guy who dumped 5 or 6 doctors before he finally got one who found the right combination of drugs for his particular disorder.

 

[wheresmybacon]

I hate to put it like this, but a lot of psychological issues relate to how you control your own thoughts.

Think of most people's minds as untrained dogs. The mind just does whatever, acts on any impulsive thought, etc.. You have to train your mind via positive reinforcement to think of other things when you lean towards depression. That's really all there is to it, no matter what drugs you take or psychologists you visit they won't be able to truly change your ability to do this. The same way as when a dog is about to piss on the carpet and you stop it from doing so, after enough times it usually stops peeing on the carpet.

I used to struggle with depression constantly myself, and I've had a lot of bad stuff happen to me over the course of my lifetime but this is the personal way I learned to deal with it.

Just as an example: say you keep thinking about how depressed you are. Each time you think about it will essentially "reinforce" the circuit in your brain which leads you to thinking about it. In other words the more you dwell on it the more intense it becomes. What you have to do is view it essentially like a computer program. When you find your mind wandering down that same path that it has always wandered down, halt-command it and choose a different path.

In this way I have essentially reprogrammed my mind over the years to think in a thought pattern which I find more beneficial. Anybody can do it, just like anybody can lead their mind to depression no matter how good their personal life may be. It just takes a lot of mental "work" to reprogram things, and to do so requires you to step back outside of your normal mind state and examine what's going on inside your brain.

This is all fine and good for normal people, but for those of us who’ve altered our brain chemistry from years of alcohol and drug abuse, or who were just unfortunate enough to receive a totally out of whack set of neurotransmitters from birth, it isn’t quite so simple. In short, there’s a difference between being a Debbie Downer and being clinically depressed.

My hat’s off to those who can simply retrain their brains in the manner you’ve detailed here, but the fact is that most people who’re truly depressed it isn’t as simple as just taking a step back and snapping yourself out of it.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Sounds like a wonderful plan for creating a world full of helpless victims, unable to ever change their lives. There are many resources available to people who suffer from thoughts of suicide. If you do not choose to make use of them, then nobody else is responsible for that choice.

Mothers and daughters fight. Families sometimes have very toxic relationships. None of these things are reasons for suicide.

Have you ever actually been around people that are depressed or tried to kill themselves intentionally?

When they're that depressed many can't seek help properly and need someone to get them started on getting help.

I've seen plenty of people that felt the "tough love/big fucking deal/etc" type of thinking, and the ones that I've known that have either personally gone through this or known someone that has changes their tune afterwards.

This is absolute and utter BS. I have a brother, and despite countless efforts by my parents, he continues to drink in excess and use drugs. One recent family trip and he was FUBAR one night, and sent my mom to tears. They have tried, and tried, and tried. It all boils down to the individual taking everything that comes at them, and never being responsible with their coping mechanism. There is ALWAYS an excuse for them to go to back to whatever it is they are doing.

In the OP's case, the mom may've sped up the process, but chances are, it would've happened one day or another.

Granted I don't know the details, but that sounds like a completely different situation than what we're talking about. The fact that your brother hasn't OD'ed to the point of death despite that tells me he isn't out to intentionally kill himself. I've known people into alcohol and drugs (and yes, them killing themselves is a very real possibility but rarely is it really intentional) and it is way different than someone who's really given up or is depressed to the point of killing themselves. I'm not saying its not terrible as well, but unless you've dealt with people like we're talking about you really should not be calling BS.

We're not even saying that is true of all cases, but I don't even know how you could possibly think ignoring someone who needs help wouldn't be a problem. Most people are so self absorbed that they won't consciously notice.

I'm not blaming, its not about blaming, but fact is, people do greatly influence each other, and you could be someone's lifeline or the final bit to push them over the edge and you might not even know it.

 

[Daedalus685]

This is all fine and good for normal people, but for those of us who’ve altered our brain chemistry from years and alcohol and drug abuse, or who were just unfortunate enough to receive a totally out of whack set of neurotransmitters from birth, it isn’t quite so simple. In short, there’s a difference between being a Debbie Downer and being clinically depressed.

My hat’s off to those who can simply retrain their brains in the manner you’ve detailed here, but the fact is that most people who’re truly depressed it isn’t as simple as just taking a step back and snapping yourself out of it.

Though really that is often what it takes.. I was on meds for a long time.. not to cure me.. but to allow me to be sane enough to actually receive cognitive therapy. One is unable to accept rational reason when they are ill (even if it comes and goes) yet rational thought and self modification to thought patterns is really the only way I know of that actually helps long term.

It is woefully incomplete to say that just step back... but in the end stepping back and thinking are what it takes.. just that it is impossible until a doctor can control the illness enough. That is one of teh reasons it is so hard to get people to take teh meds.. tehy still feel like crap, the side effects are brutal, and now they rationally realize the problems and it becomes overwhelming. One ends up feeling far worse than they did when they had no real understanding of the insanity.

 

[Juddog]

This is all fine and good for normal people, but for those of us who’ve altered our brain chemistry from years of alcohol and drug abuse, or who were just unfortunate enough to receive a totally out of whack set of neurotransmitters from birth, it isn’t quite so simple. In short, there’s a difference between being a Debbie Downer and being clinically depressed.

My hat’s off to those who can simply retrain their brains in the manner you’ve detailed here, but the fact is that most people who’re truly depressed it isn’t as simple as just taking a step back and snapping yourself out of it.

The problem is that once the brain falls into a pattern it tends to stay in that pattern. That's what I'm getting at, and I've seen so many people make the same mistakes I thought I would put in my input. Like it was said earlier in the thread, once people get into the tunnel vision mode, it's often too late at that point. I posted what I posted as a means for those who haven't yet reached tunnel vision mode but find themselves on the downward spiral.

Essentially it's learning to "nip it in the bud" before it gets worse. One of the problems with the current education system is that it doesn't teach children ways to deal with their own brains, so people who have learned the trick of what I detailed above generally aren't able to learn something like that until later on in life.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

I don't get why he's depressed either? It sucks when someone does kill themselves but usually it doesn't affect me unless I knew them. For him to be upset about someone he didn't know confuses me. Kinda like when people cry when a celebrity they never knew or even came within a mile of them dies.

 

[error162]

I am sorry to hear that about your friend/aquaintance , Secondly Numenorean ,YOU are a real dick in the mouth !!!! Suicide is a terrible thing and who really knows how you reason with that , We will never know !!

 

[skyking]

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkswordsman17
Honestly, people not helping or getting help for someone they know has some issue share in the blame in instances like this. Often times there are signs but people choose to ignore them. Let alone if they actually outright antagonize them like the mother did here.
Originally Posted by mvbighead
This is absolute and utter BS. I have a brother, and despite countless efforts by my parents, he continues to drink in excess and use drugs. One recent family trip and he was FUBAR one night, and sent my mom to tears. They have tried, and tried, and tried. It all boils down to the individual taking everything that comes at them, and never being responsible with their coping mechanism. There is ALWAYS an excuse for them to go to back to whatever it is they are doing.

In the OP's case, the mom may've sped up the process, but chances are, it would've happened one day or another.

That's a classic example of co-dependency. It is hard to shake it.
What my friend's folks did was IMO the best thing they could do. They told him they loved him unconditionally, and they would always be there. The implication was go do what you have to do, we love you. Come back when you are through with this self abuse.
It is damn hard but the only way to keep your own sanity.

what really is shaking me up is apparently the convo the mother had with the daughter the night before, "your dead to me / youll never see your kids again" are somethings that the mother said to the daughter, i guess it just pushed her over the edge.

It reminds me to watch what I say. The daughter is gone, but the mother has to live with those words forever. No taking them back.