Sufism is the modern version of Islam.

Braznor

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Oct 9, 2005
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Indian sufism and Indian muslims are very much tolerant people regardless of the fact that India is a third world country with the SECOND BIGGEST In terms of gross muslim population in the world, Muslim population in India is 10% of the total Islamic population on Earth and Indonesia has 12%, compared to this, the muslim people in Afghanistan is just about 2% of the total. The fact is that though India has terrorist attacks by Islamists from Pakistan, the bulk of Indian Muslims have forever been nationalists towards India as a country and symbolic, opposing Pakistan themselves.

The fact I wish to stress is that even Islam as theological concept is on its way towards becoming a universal humanistic ideology as the other religions today. The tragedy is just that the west is looking in the wrong place expecting this to happen. I will admit I was immature about this in my younger days, but surely when the entire west is wrong today, my own sins will be forgiven. By population, the bulk of Islam is not in the Middle East, but instead in the more eastern Asian territories. Islam in Eastern Asian terms is already much tolerant, but the middle eastern variety gets all the media coverage. Yes, I'm also a Hindu Terrorist because I make drunk posts. :p
 

Braznor

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Oct 9, 2005
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By the way, thanks for everyone to make Discussion forums a mature outlet for beliefs. I hope no trolling occurs in this thread and if anyone wants to attack me, then take it to PMs.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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The rain that waters the garden on life falls everywhere on the earth from the same source. The raindrop, after a long journey, returns again to the sea.
 

Cerb

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Aug 26, 2000
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What needs to happen, every time some radical Muslim does something that gets on the news, is for a bunch of those non-radical Muslims act like our Marathon Bomber's uncle, through enough mouths and keyboards that it can't be ignored by the MSM.

If that can't be done, regardless of reason, expect more and more guilt by association. Popular perception trumps statistics.
 

lagokc

Senior member
Mar 27, 2013
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Saying the Eastern version of Islam is more tolerant than the Arab version is like standing next to Edward James Olmos in order to look more handsome. It's certainly less disgustingly barbaric but it isn't anywhere close to being tolerant by Western standards. The only way to make Islam tolerant is to change the Quran and you can't do that and still be a Muslim.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Persecution_of_Non-Muslims#India

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Persecution_of_Non-Muslims#Indonesia

Even in Istanbul, Turkey, the most tolerant and Westernized city of the most tolerant and Westernized Islamic nation, this sort of thing happened just last month:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/16/w...t-sentenced-for-twitter-postings.html?hp&_r=0

And do you think that unto such as you;
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew:
God gave the secret, and denied it me?--
Well, well, what matters it! Believe that, too.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
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Even in Istanbul, Turkey, the most tolerant and Westernized city of the most tolerant and Westernized Islamic nation, this sort of thing happened just last month:

Even leaving aside this being a case of generalizing from a hand-picked incident, most Turks are Sunnis, and most of the rest are Shiites, so I am not sure what that has to do with Sufism.
 

sad_guy

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May 1, 2013
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lol muslims and peaceful? Forget it mmkay?
not trolling, i'm from India, okay, so i see stuff that you guys probably do not.
 
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lagokc

Senior member
Mar 27, 2013
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Even leaving aside this being a case of generalizing from a hand-picked incident, most Turks are Sunnis, and most of the rest are Shiites, so I am not sure what that has to do with Sufism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam#Sunni

"The largest denomination in Islam is Sunni Islam, which makes up 75%–90% of all Muslims"

"The Shi'a constitute 10–20% of Islam and are its second-largest branch.[8]"

You'll mostly find Shiites in Iran. Sunnis make up the majority in Turkey, Arabia, Africa, as well as India and Indonesia.
 
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sad_guy

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May 1, 2013
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You may not be trolling, but you're also not really adding anything of substance to the discussion.


what i am trying to say is that there really aren't any peaceful muslims. Its like saying that something like a meat-eating vegetarian exists.

Converting people of other faiths to Islam is an integral part of their religion. By force, fear, humiliation, any means necessary. Over here in my country these days there are a lot of Hindus coming from Pakistan. They come on Visas, and once they cross the border, they refuse to go back. Why, you ask? Here's why-

Article 1
Article 2


Yesterday i was watching a news item on the television. They interviewed these Hindus refugees.. and they narrated their plight.. how they continuously had to live in a state of fear.. how the girls were carried away and raped.. then forcefully converted to islam. How the pakistani authorities demolished Hindu temples and homes of Hindu folk in the name of development. How their homes were showered with stones, and yet when they complained to the police, they were shoo'ed away.

Over here in India, Muslims enjoy every right, in someplaces even more than the native Hindus. Now, now, i am not promoting discrimination on the basis of religion, but a kid whose parents earn 5 lakh rupees (100k USD approx) can claim reservation in the countries engineering colleges, whereas another kid whose parents struggle to earn bread cannot. Why, because the first kid is a muslim. These people have reservations in govt. jobs, colleges, even while promotion. Yet they demand more. They start rioting at the slightest whim. They want sharia laws to be applied in India, a land that isn't theirs' to begin with.

Also, remember that beheading of that british soldier. If you're waiving it off as a crime of passion, don't make that mistake. The quran specifically orders its followers to behead nonbelievers.

etnic cleansing for muslims is like going to church for a christian.

See links in posts above.
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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what i am trying to say is that there really aren't any peaceful muslims. Its like saying that something like a meat-eating vegetarian exists.

Millions of Muslims in the US (and over a billion around the world) prove you wrong.

It's the sort of bigotry you're posting that's the fuel for a lot of violence.

Converting people of other faiths to Islam is an integral part of their religion. By force, fear, humiliation, any means necessary.

You appear not to be familiar with world history - Islam is not the only religion that description fits.

Again, very large numbers of Muslims do not fit your description.

I think that there are a number of Muslim societies that are intolerant of others, and too much in favor of theocracies and not in favor of religion. There are also Muslim countries where other religions have more freedom, and countries with many Muslims, including the US, where there is no problem with this issue. Again Islam isn't the only religion with some issues around this in some places.


Over here in my country these days there are a lot of Hindus coming from Pakistan. They come on Visas, and once they cross the border, they refuse to go back. Why, you ask? Here's why-

Pakistan is not the same as all Muslims. And again, it's not the only religion or society with issues.

Perhaps you would like to try to go live in one of the Israeli settlements as a Muslim?

Yesterday i was watching a news item on the television. They interviewed these Hindus refugees.. and they narrated their plight.. how they continuously had to live in a state of fear.. how the girls were carried away and raped.. then forcefully converted to islam. How the pakistani authorities demolished Hindu temples and homes of Hindu folk in the name of development. How their homes were showered with stones, and yet when they complained to the police, they were shoo'ed away.

And in Vietnam, under the Catholic leader Diem, backed by the US, the government mistreated Buddhists so badly some burned themselves in protest - with the President's wife responding with a laugh that she liked a good barbecue. There are horrors. You're right to point the horrors out, not to say all members are doing them.


Over here in India, Muslims enjoy every right, in someplaces even more than the native Hindus.

That sounds suspiciously like some Americans who complain that 'criminals get more rights than citizens' or 'gays get special rights' or 'blacks get special rights' and so on.

Now, now, i am not promoting discrimination on the basis of religion, but a kid whose parents earn 5 lakh rupees (100k USD approx) can claim reservation in the countries engineering colleges, whereas another kid whose parents struggle to earn bread cannot. Why, because the first kid is a muslim. These people have reservations in govt. jobs, colleges, even while promotion. Yet they demand more. They start rioting at the slightest whim. They want sharia laws to be applied in India, a land that isn't theirs' to begin with.

Are they overrepresented in those areas? If so, then I might share your concern if they're somehow corruptly taking 'more than their share'. Somehow I doubt they are overrepresented. On the one hand, every citizen of a place has a right to advocate what they believe in. If 90% of Americans wanted Sharia law, democracy says we'd pass it. From what I understand of it, I'm quite against it and support you in opposing it - but people advoating it, while we disagree with them, do have a right to their opinions.


Also, remember that beheading of that british soldier. If you're waiving it off as a crime of passion, don't make that mistake. The quran specifically orders its followers to behead nonbelievers.

That explains the millions of Muslims in the US and UK who are behading non-Muslims.

Oh, wait.

Not every passage in the Koran or Chritianity is followed today, you can find all kinds of things that seem barbaric now. It's not fair to just cherry pick one and ignore how it actually is or isn't followed. You don't need the Koran to explain why members of a group would seek revenge for violence to their group. Some of our group would almost certainly be looking for revenge is the same were done to us.


etnic cleansing for muslims is like going to church for a christian.

That's false extremie hate speech. It reminds me more than anything of the Nazis preaching about how Jews were out to destroy them and had to be destroyed first.

Your hate is the cause of increasing hate that creates problems and violence in a cycle.

We can point at some Muslims preaching hate, and they can point at you preaching hate.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Saying the Eastern version of Islam is more tolerant than the Arab version is like standing next to Edward James Olmos in order to look more handsome. It's certainly less disgustingly barbaric but it isn't anywhere close to being tolerant by Western standards. The only way to make Islam tolerant is to change the Quran and you can't do that and still be a Muslim.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Persecution_of_Non-Muslims#India

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Persecution_of_Non-Muslims#Indonesia

Even in Istanbul, Turkey, the most tolerant and Westernized city of the most tolerant and Westernized Islamic nation, this sort of thing happened just last month:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/16/w...t-sentenced-for-twitter-postings.html?hp&_r=0

And do you think that unto such as you;
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew:
God gave the secret, and denied it me?--
Well, well, what matters it! Believe that, too.

Somehow millions of Muslims in the US have found a way not to do things you say they have to do, without changing the Quran.

How many passages from the bible would you like me to cite that are barbaric and most Christians generally do not follow today?

You're spreading hate. There are huge problems with some Muslims' behaviors. I have no issue with discussing that - I encourage that responsible discussion.

That's very different from the sort of hate speech against all Muslims misrepresenting others and the situation to create more hate.
 

sad_guy

Member
May 1, 2013
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craig234.. did you even read those 2 articles?

As for over representation, what i was trying to say was that these muslims, although they've given their fair share, they keep demanding more and more. They want preferential treatment, just because of their religion. I think this is wrong. I am not saying that muslims should be kept down and not allowed to rise, all i am saying is that no-one should be allowed use their "minority-status" as a cover for justifying demands that are wrong to begin with.

I have faced the brunt of reservation in colleges and i know. I'm a hindu and although i'm not from a poor family, i could not get admission into the college of my choice even after having equal marks to that of muslim candidate.

They say- "We should be given special rights just because we're muslims"
I say-"Don't give privileges to people based on their religion, but their economic status"

is that wrong?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,575
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The story of Majnun and Layla:

Qays ibn al-Mulawwah was just a boy when he fell deeply in love with Layla Al-Aamiriya. He was sure of this love on the very first day he laid his eyes upon her at maktab (traditional school). He soon began to write beautiful love poems about Layla and he would read them out loud on street corners to anybody who would care to listen. Such passionate displays of love and devotion caused many to refer to the boy as Majnun, meaning madman.

One day, Majnun found the courage to ask Layla’s father for his daughter’s hand in marriage, but her father refused the request. Such a marriage, the father reasoned, would only cause a scandal. It would not be proper for his daughter to marry a person whom everybody called a madman. Instead, Layla was promised to another – an older man from a neighbouring village.

Majnun was overcome with grief and abandoned his home and family and disappeared into the wilderness where he lived a miserable life of solitude among the wild animals. It was in this wilderness that Majnun spent his days composing poems to his beloved.

Layla was forced to marry this other man, although she did not love him because her heart still belonged to Majnun. But even though Layla did not love her husband, she was a loyal daughter and so remained a faithful wife.

The news of this marriage was devastating to Majnun who continued to live a life of solitude, refusing to return home to his mother and father in the city.

Majnun’s mother and father missed their son terribly and longed everyday for his safe return. They would leave food for him at the bottom of the garden in the hopes that one day he would come back to them out of the desert. But Majnun remained in the wilderness, writing his poetry in solitude, never speaking to a single soul.

Majnun spent all of his time alone, surrounded only by the animals of the wilderness that would gather around him and protect him during the long desert nights. He was often seen by travellers who would pass him on their way towards the city. The travellers said that Majnun spent his days reciting poetry to himself and writing in the sand with a long stick; they said that he truly was driven to madness by a broken heart.

Many years later, Majnun’s father and mother both passed away. Knowing of his devotion to his parents, Layla was determined to send Majnun word of their passing. Eventually she found an old man who claimed to have seen Majnun in the desert. After much begging and pleading the old man agreed to pass on a message to Majnun the next time he set off on his travels.

One day, the old man did indeed cross paths with Majnun in the desert; there he solemnly delivered the news concerning the death of Majnun’s parents and was forced to witness what a terrible blow this was to the young poet.

Overcome with regret and loss, Majnun retreated inside of himself entirely and vowed to live in the desert until his own death.

Some years later, Layla’s husband died. The young woman hoped that finally she would be with her one true love; that finally she and Majnun would be together forever. But sadly this was not to be. Tradition demanded that Layla remain in her home alone to grieve for her dead husband for two whole years without seeing another soul. The thought of not being with Majnun for two more years was more than Layla could bear. They had been separated for a lifetime and two more years of solitude, two more years without seeing her beloved, was enough to cause the young woman to give up on life. Layla died of a broken heart, alone in her home without ever seeing Majnun again.

News of Layla’s death reached Majnun in the wilderness. He immediately travelled to the place where Layla had been buried and there he wept and wept until he too surrendered to the impossible grief and died at the graveside of his one true love.

-----------------

‘I pass by these walls, the walls of Layla
And kiss this wall and that wall.
It’s not love of the houses that has taken my heart
but of the One who dwells in those houses.’

Qays ibn al-Mulawwah

---------------

Who could have imagined how deeply the soul can suffer. Who could have imagined that soil and water and light could have created empathy. Who could have imagined that the peace of Union could have been shattered by thought and time. When I was a child I had no idea such pain could come to me. And, Oh my God, you ask me to forgive. And of all the worthless things you ask me to forgive you picked the one that is me. So many tears, Layla, so many tears and all I do is forget. How much I want to reach for you my Beloved and how much I am afraid. One brief kiss from you Layla is all I will ever have.
 

sad_guy

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May 1, 2013
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If 90% of Americans wanted Sharia law, democracy says we'd pass it.

okay.. but what if these "Americans" are in fact Muslims who-
>immigrated from middle-east and Pakistan.
>Married, had lots of kids.
>When couldn't find wives, married and had sex with their own siblings, just to increase their population.
>Once their population is large enough, claimed benefits and welfare from the government, saying that they were Americans who were entitled to these things.
>the government doesn't dare to say no since they have such a huge population that they can significantly affect election results.
>in the end, they live comfortably on welfare money(or should i say, taxpayers' money?), do no work and claim special benefits because they are minorities.
> Whenever their beliefs are offended(happens very frequently, don't you think), they organize violent protests, causing damage to public property and demand the government to amend the US constitution in accordance with the sharia laws.

All the things that i have listed above, you may call them products of my fevered imagination. But these are guidlines laid down by eminent muslim leaders and public speakers while they address Muslim crowds. this is happening here and could happen in USA, mark my words.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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What needs to happen, every time some radical Muslim does something that gets on the news, is for a bunch of those non-radical Muslims act like our Marathon Bomber's uncle, through enough mouths and keyboards that it can't be ignored by the MSM.

If that can't be done, regardless of reason, expect more and more guilt by association. Popular perception trumps statistics.
Sad to say -- that can`t be done....but perhaps as you stated our marathon Bomber`s uncle might be a start...

I have always said -- where are those who will stand up and denounce these needless acts of terrorism....
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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offtopic much?

My point was merely that in order to understand what Sufism is you would need to be a Sufi, just as to see the topic I see you would need my eyes. So I guess that just shows that even though you can caution folk about looking at things from personal opinion, so many will go ahead and do it anyway and never even note the irony. So what you may not have known when you claimed 'off topic, is that the story of Majnun and Layla is a Sufi teaching story, part of the lesson of which is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You may call this a lesson in subjectivity, but I prefer to see that it is only the eye of beauty that perceives the beauty of things. Blessed then is he who sees beauty for that beauty is a reflection of the true self.

In another Sufi story, The Caravan of Dreams, the potential of this is revealed, when an image of vast riches is so vividly imagined that it arrives in reality. But alas, we are a practical lot today and have perhaps lost a sense of poetry, so perhaps we should all read the story of The Magic Horse.
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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Discussion Club is meant to be topical and honest, without cursing or insults. Please stick to the topic and refrain from discussing other members, moderators, or their actions.

As for the two linked articles, the OP was referring to Indian Muslims, not Pakistan. I believe it is a bait and switch to refer to another country when he was explaining that India may be a good example of integration and relatively peaceful cohabitation. That the violent madness of countries further west does not apply to India.

It's an interesting subject to explore. I at least hope that it is true, but off the top of my head I'm not sure how to measure or quantify it. Whether or not I've heard of bad things happening in India is anecdotal at best.
 
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lagokc

Senior member
Mar 27, 2013
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Somehow millions of Muslims in the US have found a way not to do things you say they have to do, without changing the Quran.

No, they have not. They're simply a minority and lack the power to oppress non-Muslims. The second Muslims become a majority in a region it means oppression for non-Muslims.