Subsidizing Bad Decisions

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Even if 10% of houses go into foreclosure that still means that 90% of people are paying their bills on time and then add the number of people who never bought houses and instead rent or people who own their houses outright and I would expect that the percent of Americans who are suffering through a foreclosure is rather small.

Why should the 95% of people who made the right choices in life have to foot the bill for the 5% of people who either screwed up or just ran into some bad luck?

Thomas Sowell:
Now that the federal government has decided to bail out homeowners in trouble, with mortgage loans up to $729,000, that raises some questions that ought to be asked, but are seldom being asked.

Since the average American never took out a mortgage loan as big as seven hundred grand-- for the very good reason that he could not afford it-- why should he be forced as a taxpayer to subsidize someone else who apparently couldn't afford it either, but who got in over his head anyway?

Why should taxpayers who live in apartments, perhaps because they did not feel that they could afford to buy a house, be forced to subsidize other people who could not afford to buy a house, but who went ahead and bought one anyway?

We hear a lot of talk in some quarters about how any one of us could be in the same financial trouble that many homeowners are in if we lost our job or had some other misfortune. The pat phrase is that we are all just a few paydays away from being in the same predicament.

Another way of saying the same thing is that some people live high enough on the hog that any of the common misfortunes of life can ruin them.

Who hasn't been out of work at some time or other, or had an illness or accident that created unexpected expenses? The old and trite notion of "saving for a rainy day" is old and trite precisely because this has been a common experience for a very long time.

What is new is the current notion of indulging people who refused to save for a rainy day or to live within their means. In politics, it is called "compassion"-- which comes in both the standard liberal version and "compassionate conservatism."

The one person toward whom there is no compassion is the taxpayer.

The current political stampede to stop mortgage foreclosures proceeds as if foreclosures are just something that strikes people like a bolt of lightning from the blue-- and as if the people facing foreclosures are the only people that matter.

What if the foreclosures are not stopped?

Will millions of homes just sit empty? Or will new people move into those homes, now selling for lower prices-- prices perhaps more within the means of the new occupants?

The same politicians who have been talking about a need for "affordable housing" for years are now suddenly alarmed that home prices are falling. How can housing become more affordable unless prices fall?

The political meaning of "affordable housing" is housing that is made more affordable by politicians intervening to create government subsidies, rent control or other gimmicks for which politicians can take credit.

Affordable housing produced by market forces provides no benefit to politicians and has no attraction for them.

Study after study, not only here but in other countries, show that the most affordable housing is where there has been the least government interference with the market-- contrary to rhetoric.

When new occupants of foreclosed housing find it more affordable, will the previous occupants all become homeless? Or are they more likely to move into homes or apartments that they can afford? They will of course be sadder-- but perhaps wiser as well.

The old and trite phrase "sadder but wiser" is old and trite for the same reason that "saving for a rainy day" is old and trite. It reflects an all too common human experience.

Even in an era of much-ballyhooed "change," the government cannot eliminate sadness. What it can do is transfer that sadness from those who made risky and unwise decisions to the taxpayers who had nothing to do with their decisions.

Worse, the subsidizing of bad decisions destroys one of the most effective sources of better decisions-- namely, paying the consequences of bad decisions.

In the wake of the housing debacle in California, more people are buying less expensive homes, making bigger down payments, and staying away from "creative" and risky financing. It is amazing how fast people learn when they are not insulated from the consequences of their decisions.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,655
33,495
136
Relax, so far the borrowers haven't gotten squat. The lenders got the whole box of donuts. And this is the best part: the lenders get to loan the money to the government that the government will use to bail out the lenders!
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
10,913
3
0
Life isn't fair. The economy is fucked. I don't care about fairness I care about what unfucks the economy, and this most certainly is not it.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
66,173
14,603
146
Why should the consumers who are responsibly managing their finances have to bail out the banks and financial institutions who haven't been responsibly managing theirs?


Personally, I'd rather see the government bail out the consumers than the banks. I think that'd stimulate the economy more than giving it to the banks to hoard.
 

quest55720

Golden Member
Nov 3, 2004
1,339
0
0
Originally posted by: BoomerD
Why should the consumers who are responsibly managing their finances have to bail out the banks and financial institutions who haven't been responsibly managing theirs?


Personally, I'd rather see the government bail out the consumers than the banks. I think that'd stimulate the economy more than giving it to the banks to hoard.


We should not be bailing out anyone. That is the problem with this country no one can tolerate any pains. We ran up the credit card and it is now time for pay back. We need to let some of these business and people fail for bad decisions. It is bull shit that us people who work hard and play by the rules get screwed over. I am against the bail outs to the big banks and people who bought to much house. I can live with a GM bail out if they go through a chapter 11 so the company can viable again.
 

Jack Flash

Golden Member
Sep 10, 2006
1,947
0
76
Originally posted by: quest55720
Originally posted by: BoomerD
Why should the consumers who are responsibly managing their finances have to bail out the banks and financial institutions who haven't been responsibly managing theirs?


Personally, I'd rather see the government bail out the consumers than the banks. I think that'd stimulate the economy more than giving it to the banks to hoard.


We should not be bailing out anyone. That is the problem with this country no one can tolerate any pains. We ran up the credit card and it is now time for pay back. We need to let some of these business and people fail for bad decisions. It is bull shit that us people who work hard and play by the rules get screwed over. I am against the bail outs to the big banks and people who bought to much house. I can live with a GM bail out if they go through a chapter 11 so the company can viable again.

If only the situation were that simple.
 

Wheezer

Diamond Member
Nov 2, 1999
6,731
1
81
Originally posted by: Jack Flash
Originally posted by: quest55720
Originally posted by: BoomerD
Why should the consumers who are responsibly managing their finances have to bail out the banks and financial institutions who haven't been responsibly managing theirs?


Personally, I'd rather see the government bail out the consumers than the banks. I think that'd stimulate the economy more than giving it to the banks to hoard.


We should not be bailing out anyone. That is the problem with this country no one can tolerate any pains. We ran up the credit card and it is now time for pay back. We need to let some of these business and people fail for bad decisions. It is bull shit that us people who work hard and play by the rules get screwed over. I am against the bail outs to the big banks and people who bought to much house. I can live with a GM bail out if they go through a chapter 11 so the company can viable again.

If only the situation were that simple.

saying "no" usually is.

no to a house you can't afford.
no to everyone in your family owning a cell phone.
no to a new car even though there is 0% interest
no to that nice big plasma even though best buy gives you 24 months to pay
no to every credit card offer that comes in the mail
no to spending every dime you have rather than learning how to save in case your job goes in the crapper
no to all those tv channels you never watch

you get the picture.



People didn't want the pain and hardship of having to do the hard work of being responsible to do what it takes to own your own home, they wanted the fastest easiest path with the least amount if sacrifice possible.

Same way with their cars, tv's and any other toy they wanted.

Many of those in the national banking system saw this and like slime ball used car salesmen talked these stupid, greedy and financially irresponsible people into more than they could afford.

Everyone was only looking into the short term.

These "hard economic times" are a frankenstien monster of our own creation and now no one wants to go through the pain required to put it down.

If it is not made painful to recover no one will learn a damn thing from it.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
I absolutely think gov should step out of the way with foreclosures and let the cards fall as they may. There are some arguments to keeping banks solvent, and in any case that's a more complex issue, but this one is far clearer, even if propping it up is part of an effort to keep banks solvent.

The problem was elevated housing and the solution is not keeping it elevated.

I find the most likely scenario at this time a drawn out recession cushioned by the government and an irreperable damage done to the economy, similar (if not in scope, at least in kind) to that which the Japanese government has done to theirs. Constant intervention, government hand-outs. I'm not saying this definitely will happen, but by all means the US is sprinting toward it with arms wide open.

It appears now that Japan is about to face what they should have faced before but were unwilling. They used their last bullet with tons of government propping and now have nothing, so their house of cards is being burned to the ground. Is this the future the US can look forward to if it keeps zombie institutions going long-term and does not expunge them?
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
We should not bail out anyone. Let the entire system come crashing down. Banks. Homeowners. Businesses. State governments. Everything.

Every great empire eventually falls.
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
6,278
0
0
Topic: Subsidizing Bad Decisions

Does Johnnie mean our on-going subsidy of that certain war that they said would pay for itself while we were greeted as liberators ?

You remember - that police action and nation-building exercise where we say we are removing all our troops but are leaving 50k of them there in spite of that country saying No, big fat no, N-O? to permanent bases?

Is that the bad decision we are subsidizing ?
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
76
Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
Topic: Subsidizing Bad Decisions

Does Johnnie mean our on-going subsidy of that certain war that they said would pay for itself while we were greeted as liberators ?

You remember - that police action and nation-building exercise where we say we are removing all our troops but are leaving 50k of them there in spite of that country saying No, big fat no, N-O? to permanent bases?

Is that the bad decision we are subsidizing ?

Pfft. You're not allowed to talk about why we are in this situation. It's been over 2 months and Obama hasn't pulled the troops. Why aren't they home yet? Start impeachment!!!!!
 

Elias824

Golden Member
Mar 13, 2007
1,100
0
76
We still get the advantage that the entire market dosent collapse, which would make things worse for us. plus if you have money now would be a good time to buy a house instead of rent.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
Topic: Subsidizing Bad Decisions

Does Johnnie mean our on-going subsidy of that certain war that they said would pay for itself while we were greeted as liberators ?

You remember - that police action and nation-building exercise where we say we are removing all our troops but are leaving 50k of them there in spite of that country saying No, big fat no, N-O? to permanent bases?

Is that the bad decision we are subsidizing ?

Pfft. You're not allowed to talk about why we are in this situation. It's been over 2 months and Obama hasn't pulled the troops. Why aren't they home yet? Start impeachment!!!!!

You think Iraq is why the economy collapsed?
 

retrospooty

Platinum Member
Apr 3, 2002
2,031
74
86
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Even if 10% of houses go into foreclosure that still means that 90% of people are paying their bills on time and then add the number of people who never bought houses and instead rent or people who own their houses outright and I would expect that the percent of Americans who are suffering through a foreclosure is rather small.

Why should the 95% of people who made the right choices in life have to foot the bill for the 5% of people who either screwed up or just ran into some bad luck?

We are not doing this to "foot the bill" for those that screwed up... Its more like we are stuck with this mess, because of those that screwed up. The problem is that if these banks and AIG fails, our whole economy goes into a tailspin, a MAJOR tailspin making this recession into a massive worldwide depression. The govt isnt bailing thses asses out for fun, or for charity. We are all in this same boat, unfortunately, and we have 2 chioces. Let them fail, and deal with massive depression, worse than the 1920's, or do the bailouts.

Bush and Obama both chose bailoiuts, and they are right... Given that its too late to do anthing else at this point.

That's all there is too it.
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
6,278
0
0
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
Topic: Subsidizing Bad Decisions

Does Johnnie mean our on-going subsidy of that certain war that they said would pay for itself while we were greeted as liberators ?

You remember - that police action and nation-building exercise where we say we are removing all our troops but are leaving 50k of them there in spite of that country saying No, big fat no, N-O? to permanent bases?

Is that the bad decision we are subsidizing ?

Pfft. You're not allowed to talk about why we are in this situation. It's been over 2 months and Obama hasn't pulled the troops. Why aren't they home yet? Start impeachment!!!!!

You think Iraq is why the economy collapsed?

Oh ... no, no, no. It's the exact opposite. Further expansion of the military industrial complex is necessary for without it the economy would really be in the shitter. We need more war to support the US economy.

Percent Change from 2007

Q108: +7.3
Q208: +7.3
Q308: +18.0
Q408: +3.1

Clearly when we decrease our massive spending to the military industrial complex the economy falters. We need more funding for new and innovative ways to kill and maim.

 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Sowell acts like money and jobs just disappeared into ether when .0005% have it all, made it happen, at the expense of everyone else. What needs to happen is rip up their banks and ALL our mortgages are torn up too. Like a new homestead act.

PS - I have zero sympathy for his deriding chump change, bone thrown, by Obama while his bosses (banks, insurance etc) mortgage our future and get gazillions more to add to their largesses.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
Topic: Subsidizing Bad Decisions

Does Johnnie mean our on-going subsidy of that certain war that they said would pay for itself while we were greeted as liberators ?

You remember - that police action and nation-building exercise where we say we are removing all our troops but are leaving 50k of them there in spite of that country saying No, big fat no, N-O? to permanent bases?

Is that the bad decision we are subsidizing ?

Pfft. You're not allowed to talk about why we are in this situation. It's been over 2 months and Obama hasn't pulled the troops. Why aren't they home yet? Start impeachment!!!!!

You think Iraq is why the economy collapsed?

Oh ... no, no, no. It's the exact opposite. Further expansion of the military industrial complex is necessary for without it the economy would really be in the shitter. We need more war to support the US economy.

Percent Change from 2007

Q108: +7.3
Q208: +7.3
Q308: +18.0
Q408: +3.1

Clearly when we decrease our massive spending to the military industrial complex the economy falters. We need more funding for new and innovative ways to kill and maim.

:roll:

It's one thing to be against the Iraq war on principle, which I am. It's another to blame our current economic state on the war. Sorry, but the war didn't cause the housing bubble, or the oil bubble, or the tech bubble or any other bubble. Be against the war all you want, but try to stay in the realm of sanity.