Submersible / portable utility pump

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lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
60,424
10,810
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Don't forget your bury elevation. That'll take most of the fall you have. It doesn't take much fall(or even none) to move water, but pipes move over time, and it's never in your favor.

What's behind the puddle? Can you run it backward? Another choice is a sump pit in your yard. That's getting into a lot more work though. We have to do stuff like that here for stormwater attenuation on new houses. Makes up for the impervious surfaces that cause a lot of surface water flow.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
41,023
10,283
136
Don't forget your bury elevation. That'll take most of the fall you have. It doesn't take much fall(or even none) to move water, but pipes move over time, and it's never in your favor.

What's behind the puddle? Can you run it backward? Another choice is a sump pit in your yard. That's getting into a lot more work though. We have to do stuff like that here for stormwater attenuation on new houses. Makes up for the impervious surfaces that cause a lot of surface water flow.
That's an interesting notion. I hadn't thought of that. The water will fall through a distance under the grate before it gets to the pipe. There's close to no fall at all absent that, but if I can take it down a foot or so, maybe there's enough.

I think that most of the water getting into the puddle comes from roof runoff at the back of the house on the side with the driveway. It makes it to the drive way when it rains hard enough. Can collect quickly sometimes. I have turned on the Ace submersible pump many many times when I saw the water at least an inch or so high out there, I do it from the dining room, looking out the window by plugging the extension cord into the wall outlet. When I sense that the water's almost gone (watching and/or listening... you can hear the pump starting to struggle when the water's just about gone) I pull the plug out of the wall. Failing to pull that plug soon enough, enough times, seems to have destroyed that pump. I bought another about a week ago. I should maybe buy another to have backup.

I could conceivable route the roof runoff from the back of the house almost all the way to the front... enough where it would run by itself to the street gutter. It would require an abnormal channeling of downspout material around the side of the house. It's something to consider if I can't find another way or if the grate+hole+PVC to the sidewalk doesn't solve things at least for now.
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
60,424
10,810
126
That's an interesting notion. I hadn't thought of that. The water will fall through a distance under the grate before it gets to the pipe. There's close to no fall at all absent that, but if I can take it down a foot or so, maybe there's enough.
I think one of us has a misunderstanding. I haven't been following the thread closely, so it could very well be me. Let's say you have 6" of fall from the puddle to the gutter pan of the curb. That's perfectly fine in 45', BUT... You need to bury your pipe. We'll say you're using 4" pipe, and having the top exposed isn't a big deal. Now you only have 2" of fall from the puddle to the gutter pan. Lowering the invert at the puddle will only make it worse. Dunno how you'd lower it at the street. The gutter pan's pretty much a fixed target.

If your ground percolates fairly well, the pit idea might work well. As I said, you just upped the work by a factor of 10, but it'll get rid of water without power, and is doable using hand tools. The basic gist of how it's done in MD(lots of rain) is a downspout come from the roof, and goes underground to a 10'x10'x8' pit. That pit is lined with filter cloth, sand, #57 stone, and dirt on top. The pit allows the water to slowly percolate into the soil, preventing concentrated runoff.

Dunno what quantities of water you're pumping per storm, but I assume it isn't hurricane stuff, and it's typically a one and done event. IOW, you aren't getting days of rain in a row. I don't think you'd need the sizes I stated above for CA. The stuff we do is professionally engineered, but should be doable by an amateur making educated guesses about how much water needs to be taken care of. You should have the capacity to hold the water you pump during a storm, and have it all gone by the next storm.

One other idea, is creating a rain garden type stormwater management. If you get enough rain to keep stuff wet, but few deluges, you can trap the water in a shallow pond that's filled with media to absorb water, and release it very slowly. Add some wetland plants, and you'll have a nice little setup for growing interesting things you might not otherwise have in Berkeley.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
41,023
10,283
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I think one of us has a misunderstanding.
Um, yeah... I woke up this morning and realized I'd gotten it ass-backwards... the fall actually works against me, not for me. My last post I made last night and I was way past my bed! I be ruminating on your suggestions there!

The rain here, well, average rainfall is IIRC about 22 inches/year. It can be wildly variable... up to maybe 35 inches, low as 12, even less in bad drought years. Don't get a lot of heavy rain storms, they call them atmospheric rivers, dubbed Pineapple Expresses, coming from around the Hawaii area, they are warmer systems and carry a lot of moisture and can worst case rally dump a lot of rain, possibly up to 5" right here, more in the mountains, maybe in a day or two's time. Typically get 1 or 2 of those a year. In reality, they seldom dump more than 3", usually less. Storms out of Alaska are colder, not as wet, we get a lot more of those.
 
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Micrornd

Golden Member
Mar 2, 2013
1,378
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Just a couple things that need mentioned.
The curb and sidewalk belong to the city.
You can't drill through it or tunnel under it or into the gutter without the city's express permission.
You can't run the water across the sidewalk.
If you do and anyone slips or falls, you are liable, even though the sidewalk belongs to the city, because you created the hazard.
You may want to check city ordinances, in many places you are required to retain any runoff from the roof or rainfall on your property and are not allowed to pump it off the property.
I just thought these things should be mentioned and checked on before money is invested. ;)
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
41,023
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The guy across the street saw me bailing water with buckets and large containers maybe 1.5 years ago and offered to lend me his Ace 40003 pump, the same model I then bought. He showed me what was done on his property. He has two pipes running under the sidewalk, one larger than the other, both draining water to the street gutter. I'll see if I can remember what he said, I'm not clear on it. One was probably runoff from a roof portion, the other from some other source, something like that. I am pretty sure he contracted it out. Was he in compliance with city ordinances? I don't know... I assumed so, don't know.

It's hard to imagine that my town forbids runoff to the gutter, isn't that what gutters are for? Hard to stop that, really.

There's another thing that crossed my mind last night. Around a dozen years ago I had the sewer line replaced by a company that did it trenchless. That line runs right under the driveway, basically (I think) under the center, but not sure. At the driveway up-ramp there's a small steel mini-manhole cover (about 8" in diameter, I'd estimate) that has "Sewer" embossed on it in steel. Of course, I'm wondering if it's legal to pipe the runoff into the sewer line itself. That line is well below the puddle. It's a thought.

At the time that the trenchless sewer work was done they showed me that my water main, which was right next to the sewer work had broken, it was very old (this house was built in 1910), and they broke it inadvertently. They refused to give me a break on repairing it, nonetheless, they said it was in such bad shape it was difficult not to have broken it, was their argument. I had no reply to that, I needed a good water main, obviously. The crew chief offered to replace it on his own time for a bargain rate but I opted to have his company do it and they did, ultimately after much negotiation about the details. They offered to include a pressure regulator installed as part of the water main work for an extra $100 or so but I deferred. The pressure here is somewhat high when I measured it (later), around 90lb, but it's not terrible.

I just looked in my data, where I detailed this stuff extensively... didn't recall it much off the top of my head. Until I could get the water main replaced I got my water on a temporary basis by virtue of an arrangement with my next door neighbor... a couple of garden hoses attached to their outdoor spigot! A creative arrangement suggested by a plumber I talked to over the phone when I was dealing with the leaking water main at the time!

Edit: Actually I think my new water main wound up going under the house, not under the driveway. I'm reading the data I entered at the time, a mini-novel, it was a regular saga. I talked to a lot of plumbers, agencies, a knowledgeable friend, posted at alt.home.repair, just a bunch of stuff. Around New Years 2007. Hopefully I have all important details in there (my data).

Edit2: Yeah, the new water main went under the house. I documented the odyssey extensively. Didn't want to have the water main down the middle of the driveway for one thing because it would leave the option open of putting in a solid concrete driveway in the future. You don't want your water main under solid concrete in case you need to get at it!

Now, it might seem sensible to put that solid concrete driveway in now, grade the whole thing down toward the front of the house. However, from my admittedly not-knowledgeable perspective, it might not be easy because the house has settled so much in the middle. I say "might not," don't really know. It might be doable, might be the thing to do. However, I remember the guy who did my garage roof a year ago saying concerning this basic idea, "concrete work is expensive."

Reading my notes from then, I made note of the fact that it was a major mistake to consider making a deal with the workers of the company that did my trenchless sewer work to work on the side to do the water main work. I should never have sounded them out and negotiated with them on the details of how they would do the job, what it would cost me, etc.. When they did the work as employees of the company (not on the side) they were sulky. I have no reason to think they screwed up the job, but they weren't happy, they wanted me to know, if unconsciously. It was the crew chief, he tried to get me to do the water main on the side, under the table as it were. But if I'd had them do it on the side, they wouldn't have been contractor(s), it would have been illegal, they wouldn't have been insured. People at the newsgroup frowned on that majorly. They would have had the know how and experience, but I decided it wasn't the way to go and had the company do it. I should never have considered it, rebuffed the notion immediately, but I was very inexperienced dealing with contractors and their crews.
 
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Micrornd

Golden Member
Mar 2, 2013
1,378
234
106
The guy across the street saw me bailing water with buckets and large containers maybe 1.5 years ago and offered to lend me his Ace 40003 pump, the same model I then bought. He showed me what was done on his property. He has two pipes running under the sidewalk, one larger than the other, both draining water to the street gutter. I'll see if I can remember what he said, I'm not clear on it. One was probably runoff from a roof portion, the other from some other source, something like that. I am pretty sure he contracted it out. Was he in compliance with city ordinances? I don't know... I assumed so, don't know.
You are much better off being sure, rather than assuming.
Just because he hasn't been caught yet, doesn't mean it is or isn't allowed.
I'm not trying to alarm you, it's just better if , as a homeowner, you know for sure what you can or can't do before spending your time and hard earned money.
It would be a shame to "solve" your problem and then have a city inspector drive by a month later and fine you and require your "fix" to be removed. I have seen it happen.
It's hard to imagine that my town forbids runoff to the gutter, isn't that what gutters are for? Hard to stop that, really.
No, gutters are to carry away the water that falls on the street, making it safe for the cars (no hydroplaning, flooding, etc.)
There's another thing that crossed my mind last night. Around a dozen years ago I had the sewer line replaced by a company that did it trenchless. That line runs right under the driveway, basically (I think) under the center, but not sure. At the driveway up-ramp there's a small steel mini-manhole cover (about 8" in diameter, I'd estimate) that has "Sewer" embossed on it in steel. Of course, I'm wondering if it's legal to pipe the runoff into the sewer line itself. That line is well below the puddle. It's a thought.
Greenman can probably answer that better, since you're both in Cali, but just guessing since it is Cali, I'd say absolutely not.

I'm in FL and that's a huge "no", "sewer" is wastewater and is treated, "storm water" is for runoff and is collected and directed to percolation areas to soak in (there are exceptions to this in "certified" polluted areas). Sending rain water into wastewater plants can severely overload them and completely ruin their treatment.
In some heavily industrialized, agriculturalized or polluted areas, storm water is collected and treated, but this is done by specialized treatment plants, as the treatment is much different from regular wastewater.

If I remember correctly the concrete portion of the "L.A. river" is a good example of a storm water channel and an excellent visual example of how easily storm water could overload a waste water treatment plant..
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
41,023
10,283
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I don't doubt that it's a no-no to channel the runoff into the sewer line. It's a temptation, I won't lie, but it wouldn't be super easy to do either. Gotta do something here!
 

13Gigatons

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2005
7,461
500
126
My solutions:
1. Build up a slant along the foundation wall where the gas meter is, use a combination of dirt and or sand and landscaping fabric. Then place flat stones on top of it angled to shed the rain towards the driveway.

2. Fill the pit in the driveway, build it up with dirt and or sand. Also use landscape fabric here as well. When the pit as been filled in high enough place large flat stone. This is to keep it from washing away.

Now the rain will run off to the street like it was originally designed too.

NOTE: A shovel, wheel barrow and FREE dirt relocated from somewhere else on the property will keep the cost down.

PS: The least you could do is buy a proper pump and hose: https://www.menards.com/main/plumbi...153238832.htm?tid=-5017426403100763047&ipos=1

bLvT4tG.jpg
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,904
31,433
146
My solutions:
1. Build up a slant along the foundation wall where the gas meter is, use a combination of dirt and or sand and landscaping fabric. Then place flat stones on top of it angled to shed the rain towards the driveway.

2. Fill the pit in the driveway, build it up with dirt and or sand. Also use landscape fabric here as well. When the pit as been filled in high enough place large flat stone. This is to keep it from washing away.

Now the rain will run off to the street like it was originally designed too.

NOTE: A shovel, wheel barrow and FREE dirt relocated from somewhere else on the property will keep the cost down.

PS: The least you could do is buy a proper pump and hose: https://www.menards.com/main/plumbi...153238832.htm?tid=-5017426403100763047&ipos=1

bLvT4tG.jpg

Build a French drain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDOUmX1meAs
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
41,023
10,283
136
12Gigatons:

Gonna look at this stuff. My initial reactions:

1. and 2. I have thought several times about something like this. Not sure what "slant" is, will look it up. My thought was to built a blockage, basically a dam like contrivance which I think is maybe like what you are describing here. My thinking was concrete, maybe 3-5 inches thick and as high as necessary to keep water from reaching the house. Then build up the driveway, ultimately with concrete, perhaps building a layer beneath it. Maybe that's what you are getting at here, basically.

Shovels, wheel barrow and free dirt I have. In fact I have a pretty big cone-pile of dirt in the back yard that's from digging out the clay-ish soil which I replaced over the years with dirt + homemade compost for my tomato and squash growing pits.

Will look into your idea for a proper pump too. Will revisit your post. Yes, the gas line you can see marked in the photo there, the 3 yellow flags planted by the gas/electric company, PG&E. I imagine as you evidently do that it would interfere with a French drain.
 

13Gigatons

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2005
7,461
500
126
12Gigatons:

Gonna look at this stuff. My initial reactions:

1. and 2. I have thought several times about something like this. Not sure what "slant" is, will look it up. My thought was to built a blockage, basically a dam like contrivance which I think is maybe like what you are describing here. My thinking was concrete, maybe 3-5 inches thick and as high as necessary to keep water from reaching the house. Then build up the driveway, ultimately with concrete, perhaps building a layer beneath it. Maybe that's what you are getting at here, basically.

Shovels, wheel barrow and free dirt I have. In fact I have a pretty big cone-pile of dirt in the back yard that's from digging out the clay-ish soil which I replaced over the years with dirt + homemade compost for my tomato and squash growing pits.

Will look into your idea for a proper pump too. Will revisit your post. Yes, the gas line you can see marked in the photo there, the 3 yellow flags planted by the gas/electric company, PG&E. I imagine as you evidently do that it would interfere with a French drain.

Clay-ish soil is good, won't wash away and blocks water. You still need to top it with landscape fabric and then weigh it down with rocks, flat stone or whatever you want to finish it.

I used the term slant like the way a roof is slanted into a gutter. The proper term is actually graded when dealing with soil.

The driveway will need a layer underneath it....otherwise you will need to buy a lot of cement to build it up. Most of the time they use dirt, sand, crushed rock then compress it before topping it with concrete or asphalt.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
41,023
10,283
136
Never heard of landscape fabric before. Will have to research that.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
22,371
6,507
136
I don't doubt that it's a no-no to channel the runoff into the sewer line. It's a temptation, I won't lie, but it wouldn't be super easy to do either. Gotta do something here!
No storm water in the sanitary sewer. The reason is that it will overwhelm the system and they will end up dumping raw sewage in the bay. Most people find that objectionable.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
41,023
10,283
136
No storm water in the sanitary sewer. The reason is that it will overwhelm the system and they will end up dumping raw sewage in the bay. Most people find that objectionable.
I won't do that, for certain.