Submersible / portable utility pump

[Muse]

I have a serious drainage issue on my property, right next to one side of the house. The driveway is there and I used to park cars in that spot and I think those 2 ton cars had something to do with the depression there. Also, the driveway isn't well engineered, it's just two strips of concrete with dirt between, the strips being about 18" wide.

When it rains a fair clip a puddle forms there because 1/2 my roof drains down to where the runoff accumulates at the depression. I was busy overhauling my garage last summer so couldn't get to the drainage problem. Some people suggested installing an exterior sump pump, but the likely spot was nixed by the gas company because there's gas lines where the pump would go. That is my deduction after they came out and looked where I marked where I wanted to dig. I never saw them, they just nixed the spot and left.

Well, to get to my current problem -- draining that puddle to the street. What I've done for about 2 years now is put a submersible 1/6 hp portable utility pump at the low spot in the puddle, attach a garden hose and spill the water to the sidewalk where it goes to the gutter.

I woke at 3AM today, hearing some rain, checked the puddle (been doing this since it started raining about 36 hours ago), and the puddle was huge. I started the pump (plug in the extension cord into my wall indoors and look out the window with flashlight), and it pumps and then turns off. Last night, I forgot to turn the pump off one time when the puddle went dry and it ran about 7 minutes and was off. I think this pump has an automatic shutoff when it runs dry, gets overheated. If it sits for 20 minutes it will work again. So, this morning at 3AM it was functional. But it would shut off after 1 1/2 to 2 minutes. I would let it sit ten or more minutes and it would again work for 90-100 seconds and turn off. The puddle was huge because the rain kept falling fairly hard and steady and I had to use a system I devised to transfer water to the street using 5 gallon buckets. Meantime, I would use the pump for 90-100 seconds every dozen minutes or so. A couple times it worked for almost 4 minutes but most every time it wasn't more than 100 seconds.

This particular pump is the Ace Hardware 40003 1/6HP Submersible Utility Pump. See the picture below.

I'm thinking one of two things:

1. There is something inside the pump that's screwing it up and taking it apart I might be able to restore it. I've taken it at least partly apart a couple of times already when it wasn't working properly. Right now, though, the flow looks typical, not restricted, so I don't know what taking it apart and inspecting/cleaning might accomplish.

2. The auto-shutoff mechanism of the pump was somehow altered so it shuts off too readily. I don't know what that mechanism would be or if I can do something about it.

I figure I'm going to buy a 2nd pump because I have found that I can't depend on one. However, I'd like to fix this one instead of having to buy 2 more.

1. Can I fix the one I have?
2. Buying a 2nd... get another Ace or some other brand/model?

What do you think?

Here's what I have:

 

[Pick2]

A submersible pump is made to be run submersed in water , to keep it cool. Running it dry probably smoked the motor ... going by the way it's running now. You could probably run it with a timer , 1 minute on , 5 min. off or something like that. They usually run a float to control it.

Post a picture of your driveway with an estimate of the slope down to the road , and maybe you'll get some workable suggestions.

 

[Greenman]

You should be able to put a sump pump with a float switch over the gas pipe, as the pipe should be 18" deep. Dig by hand, be careful, and there won't be any issues. Install an actual sump with the pump inside it.
The pump you have is most probably toast from overheating.

 

[lxskllr]

If you have fall to the road, I'd install a proper inlet, assuming the actual problem can't be fixed right. Otherwise, I'd use a dc bilge pump with a float, and solar charger to keep doing what you're doing.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Be sure to bring it indoors at sun set so it does not freeze up. Could mess up the impeller. A more permanent solution might be some kind of dry well with a drain, though that is a fairly big project.

 

[cthulhu]

Sounds like the pump got to hot and the motor is damaged. In addition to what has been suggested, have you thought about getting some dirt to level out that area? What about a french drain?

 

[Muse]

Sounds like the pump got to hot and the motor is damaged. In addition to what has been suggested, have you thought about getting some dirt to level out that area? What about a french drain?

OK, consensus is pump has problem now, probably not fixable.

Leveling out that area would entail doing something about the concrete driveway. The problem is possibly compounded by the fact that the adjacent house has sunken in the middle, the house is 108 years old! Fixing its foundation is prohibitively expensive, the contractors told me that I'd never get my money out of it if I fixed it on that level. I took a close look at total renovation and maybe would/could have swung it back in 2000 when I bought it but now I wouldn't... not after having been told that it was a money pit on balance if I fixed it on that level.

French drain, don't know if appropriate for this but we're talking a lot of water when this gets really bad. We had ~3+ inches here in 36 hours, not a hurricane by any means but I must have pump or hand delivered to the gutter more than 300 gallons of water. This time yesterday, I was 75% done. By dawn, the end was in sight! It was quite a workout!

Be sure to bring it indoors at sun set so it does not freeze up. Could mess up the impeller. A more permanent solution might be some kind of dry well with a drain, though that is a fairly big project.

Doesn't freeze here, certainly not when it rains, anyway. If it freezes (it happens rarely), it's when the skies are clear.

If you have fall to the road, I'd install a proper inlet, assuming the actual problem can't be fixed right. Otherwise, I'd use a dc bilge pump with a float, and solar charger to keep doing what you're doing.

I've eyeballed it, there is a basic fall in that direction (south), but there is something of a rise after the puddle. If I can get the water far enough south, it will flow to the road. DC pump and solar charger, interesting ideas I have to ponder.

You should be able to put a sump pump with a float switch over the gas pipe, as the pipe should be 18" deep. Dig by hand, be careful, and there won't be any issues. Install an actual sump with the pump inside it.
The pump you have is most probably toast from overheating.

This is an interesting approach. I went down to Home Depot over last summer and looked at what they had in terms of pumps and plastic sumps you embed in the ground. I think what they had was deeper than 18" but I suppose I could improvise somehow, even use a 5 gallon bucket dug into the ground, cut down if necessary.

 

[Greenman]

Be sure to bring it indoors at sun set so it does not freeze up. Could mess up the impeller. A more permanent solution might be some kind of dry well with a drain, though that is a fairly big project.

It doesn't freeze where he lives. He doesn't really even have weather. It's either warm or cool, and sometimes it rains.

 

[Greenman]

OK, consensus is pump has problem now, probably not fixable.

Leveling out that area would entail doing something about the concrete driveway. The problem is possibly compounded by the fact that the adjacent house has sunken in the middle, the house is 108 years old! Fixing its foundation is prohibitively expensive, the contractors told me that I'd never get my money out of it if I fixed it on that level. I took a close look at total renovation and maybe would/could have swung it back in 2000 when I bought it but now I wouldn't... not after having been told that it was a money pit on balance if I fixed it on that level.

French drain, don't know if appropriate for this but we're talking a lot of water when this gets really bad. We had ~3+ inches here in 36 hours, not a hurricane by any means but I must have pump or hand delivered to the gutter more than 300 gallons of water. This time yesterday, I was 75% done. By dawn, the end was in sight! It was quite a workout!
Doesn't freeze here, certainly not when it rains, anyway. If it freezes (it happens rarely), it's when the skies are clear.

I've eyeballed it, there is a basic fall in that direction (south), but there is something of a rise after the puddle. If I can get the water far enough south, it will flow to the road. DC pump and solar charger, interesting ideas I have to ponder.

This is an interesting approach. I went down to Home Depot over last summer and looked at what they had in terms of pumps and plastic sumps you embed in the ground. I think what they had was deeper than 18" but I suppose I could improvise somehow, even use a 5 gallon bucket dug into the ground, cut down if necessary.

I have a chunk of 10" or 12" schedule 40 pvc you're welcome to. I bought it to use as a sump, needed 4', had to buy 20. Drill a bunch of holes in it and it works like a charm. You have to use a pump that has a float switch that rides on a vertical arm, the switches that actually float on the end of a cord won't work because of the limited space. I used a Little Giant that works like a charm.

 

[Muse]

I have a chunk of 10" or 12" schedule 40 pvc you're welcome to. I bought it to use as a sump, needed 4', had to buy 20. Drill a bunch of holes in it and it works like a charm. You have to use a pump that has a float switch that rides on a vertical arm, the switches that actually float on the end of a cord won't work because of the limited space. I used a Little Giant that works like a charm.

Sounds good. I'll PM you, guess I can get it from you somehow. Thanks!

The tool lending library carries Little Giant submersible pumps. My neighbor had an Ace that he offered to lend me. I saw that the Ace is cheaper than the Little Giant, so that's what I ordered 2 years ago. Don't know what kind of pump I should get for this. AFAIK, the Little Giant and the Ace #40003 I have aren't designed for sump action. Don't get the picture you describe on how the float switch has to work. I think I have seen vertical rod switches on those pumps though. Maybe that's what you mean.

 

[Greenman]

Like this.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Little-...rWSZ-X6k9gSDUX7THqWii0mxw5JxwgS4aAlP8EALw_wcB

 

[lxskllr]

I *really* dislike the idea of powered water removal. Best answer is to fix the reason it's trapping water. Next best is to use gravity to get rid of the water for you. Build an inlet or slotted drain, and run the pipe out to the street. I'd use pumps as a last resort.

 

[Pick2]

From your OP: "it's just two strips of concrete with dirt between, the strips being about 18" wide."
Any way you could put a shallow trench down the dirt strip to the road and lay a piece of 2" PVC in it , cover and you're done ?
You only need a few inches of drop to keep the water flowing.

 

[Greenman]

I *really* dislike the idea of powered water removal. Best answer is to fix the reason it's trapping water. Next best is to use gravity to get rid of the water for you. Build an inlet or slotted drain, and run the pipe out to the street. I'd use pumps as a last resort.

I *really* dislike the idea of powered water removal. Best answer is to fix the reason it's trapping water. Next best is to use gravity to get rid of the water for you. Build an inlet or slotted drain, and run the pipe out to the street. I'd use pumps as a last resort.

When the lot is lower than the street, there isn't a whole lot of choice.

 

[lxskllr]

When the lot is lower than the street, there isn't a whole lot of choice.

Sounds like he has fall, eyeballed at least. It doesn't take much, and it could even be flat as long as it starts moving at some point. If he's really unlucky, the road could be in a sump without an inlet. That happened when they repaved my street. Aside from screwing up the curbs, they made a high spot at the inlets :rollseyes: The water gets there eventually, but it takes its time. Worst part is the streets were fine. They didn't need any overlay.

 

[Muse]

I *really* dislike the idea of powered water removal. Best answer is to fix the reason it's trapping water. Next best is to use gravity to get rid of the water for you. Build an inlet or slotted drain, and run the pipe out to the street. I'd use pumps as a last resort.

Yeah, I think a major question I have to answer is if the bottom of that puddle is above where my outlet would be. It probably is, but it isn't obvious. Powered water removal bothers me too. When I'm monitoring the situation it's a big bother and that can be at any hour of the day or night. If I am not monitoring things then I'm hoping nothing goes wrong. How many fingers and toes do I need to cross to make that happen?

 

[Muse]

From your OP: "it's just two strips of concrete with dirt between, the strips being about 18" wide."
Any way you could put a shallow trench down the dirt strip to the road and lay a piece of 2" PVC in it , cover and you're done ?
You only need a few inches of drop to keep the water flowing.

I'm going to look at that idea. There may be an issue of clogging to deal with, I'm thinking. Just over the fence next to the driveway is an apartment complex and they have a number of trees that overhang my property. It's gotten to be a major issue and I have to get the info on the owner and talk to her. I don't know that she'll do anything about it, but I've been advised that I should at least consult her before doing much about it. I have cut some back myself but some of those trees are so big I can't deal with them, need to deal with a tree surgeon. Some of those trees are actually against my house now and hanging over my 2nd story roof. One of the bothers is that the trees shed majorly on the driveway. When a rainstorm occurs I have to rake and sweep (hopefully ahead of the storm) or I have extra problems pumping out the water due to the pump getting clogged!!! I keep a brush near the pump to clean its bottom. The flow out the hose frequently suddenly stops due to clogging until I brush the junk from the pump's bottom.

A similar and maybe simpler idea than PVC down the center of the driveway is to work with the downspout at the northwest corner of the house (or maybe both ideas together would work best). I think water from that downspout is a major or the main tributary to the puddling area. Instead of the downspout that goes to a few inches above ground level, I could divert that downspout a few feet up from the ground and with downspout parts (from Home Depot or whatever) I could build a diversion that hugs the house and gradually slopes down and reaches near the sidewalk. At that point I believe that dropping the runoff to the ground it would find the gutter and not the puddle. This was suggested by someone, I think the guy who did my garage roof a year ago. That water from the house roof should be pretty free of debris/leaves because it originates from my roof gutters. I still might have a puddle problem of some concern if I do divert the roof runoff in this manner, but it would probably be a way smaller puddle problem to deal with than I have now. The garage roof downspout probably contributes some to the problem, but the garage at about 24'x10' or so is a lot smaller than the house.

 

[zinfamous]

It doesn't freeze where he lives. He doesn't really even have weather. It's either warm or cool, and sometimes it rains.

Man, I miss living in Berkeley....mostly.

 

[Muse]

Here are three shots I took. You can see the 3 yellow flags near the pump, they were left by the gas company, marking where they think it's a bad idea to dig because of gas lines.
1. Basic shot, the pump is at the low point of the puddle. The pump sits on a thin square of plexiglass to shield it from the mud and it's inside a circle of wire mesh I made to shield out leaves and such.
2. The puddle, when it's super big extends all the way to the foreground.
3. Shows the overhanging canopy of trees, which are a problem in themselves because they actually touch the house now and overhang the roof some. They are rooted on the other side of the cyclone fence, I need to talk to the owner and get on the same page. Probably need to hire a tree surgery outfit to handle dealing with it. But in terms of the water, the trees' shedding clogs the pump, so I have to rake and sweep that stuff prior to when it rains for the pump not to clog and stall (even during rains sometimes).

1. You can make out the street in the distance. From where the pump is the driveway rises I'm estimating maybe 6 inches until it starts down again maybe 6 to 10 inches to the sidewalk:

2. Puddle can extend all the way to the foreground when huge:

3. Shows overhanging trees:

 

[Greenman]

You have enough fall for a gravity feed drain to work. Pot it between the two chunks of concrete with a grate at the high end.

 

[Muse]

You have enough fall for a gravity feed drain to work. Pot it between the two chunks of concrete with a grate at the high end.

You may be right, but I'm not sure... and I want to be sure before I just try to do it this way. I'm pretty sure you can't see the fall from your vantage point (i.e. the photos) and standing in/on the driveway I'm scratching my chin wondering... is it enough fall. If I were to somehow burrow under the sidewalk and have the PVC come out all the way to the gutter I'd have a little more fall than if I try to drain just shy of the sidewalk, which would be by far easier/simpler.

Absent surveyor skills and equipment I have an idea -- that is to use long 2/4's, or maybe a single one would do. That wood should sight straight down the edge (no bow), the short edge. Place a long such 2x4 (12' minimum, longer if I have it). Start at the low point of the puddle and angle up to the high point before the driveway starts going down toward the street. Put my 4 foot level on it. Prop it up until it's level and measure the rise. Then do similar measurements all the way to the sidewalk. That way I figure I can get an approximation of the rise and fall of the driveway in that area, which is what I need to know... the more accurate the better.

Now, I'm concerned about the grate you speak of. Having the thing work depends on my system not being susceptible to clogging, that's a major concern. That would be true of a sump pump solution too, of course.

 

[Greenman]

You may be right, but I'm not sure... and I want to be sure before I just try to do it this way. I'm pretty sure you can't see the fall from your vantage point (i.e. the photos) and standing in/on the driveway I'm scratching my chin wondering... is it enough fall. If I were to somehow burrow under the sidewalk and have the PVC come out all the way to the gutter I'd have a little more fall than if I try to drain just shy of the sidewalk, which would be by far easier/simpler.

Absent surveyor skills and equipment I have an idea -- that is to use long 2/4's, or maybe a single one would do. That wood should sight straight down the edge (no bow), the short edge. Place a long such 2x4 (12' minimum, longer if I have it). Start at the low point of the puddle and angle up to the high point before the driveway starts going down toward the street. Put my 4 foot level on it. Prop it up until it's level and measure the rise. Then do similar measurements all the way to the sidewalk. That way I figure I can get an approximation of the rise and fall of the driveway in that area, which is what I need to know... the more accurate the better.

Now, I'm concerned about the grate you speak of. Having the thing work depends on my system not being susceptible to clogging, that's a major concern. That would be true of a sump pump solution too, of course.

Ask the tool library if they have a laser level. Even the cheap ones are good for 30 feet. If you can get a 1/4" per foot of fall it will work fine.

 

[Muse]

Ask the tool library if they have a laser level. Even the cheap ones are good for 30 feet. If you can get a 1/4" per foot of fall it will work fine.

I kind of doubt they'll have a laser level. Seems to me they are finicky and need adjustments, not the kind of thing the guys at the tool lending library want to have to deal with. Anyway, they aren't open Mondays and I poked around online and bought a cheap one that's liked on Amazon to the tune of 4.1/5 stars with ~1900 reviews and 90 questions answered. The manufacturer answers a lot of the customer questions. I found it ~30% cheaper off Ebay.

I figure I can use it for some things around the place, this house isn't plumb or square or straight a lot of the time. Maybe I can even use it to help with the sagging foundation, taking it into the crawl space. I bought 4 house jacks for the purpose.

Using this laser level outside will probably necessitate usage in the evening when it's near dark but that's OK!

 

[Greenman]

I kind of doubt they'll have a laser level. Seems to me they are finicky and need adjustments, not the kind of thing the guys at the tool lending library want to have to deal with. Anyway, they aren't open Mondays and I poked around online and bought a cheap one that's liked on Amazon to the tune of 4.1/5 stars with ~1900 reviews and 90 questions answered. The manufacturer answers a lot of the customer questions. I found it ~30% cheaper off Ebay.

I figure I can use it for some things around the place, this house isn't plumb or square or straight a lot of the time. Maybe I can even use it to help with the sagging foundation, taking it into the crawl space. I bought 4 house jacks for the purpose.

Using this laser level outside will probably necessitate usage in the evening when it's near dark but that's OK!

You can also buy a laser detector, those work even when you can't see the beam.
I used to own a torpedo laser lever. It was $129 and at the time it was just about the coolest tool around.

 

[Muse]

Ask the tool library if they have a laser level. Even the cheap ones are good for 30 feet. If you can get a 1/4" per foot of fall it will work fine.

Well, I called the tool library yesterday and they do carry laser levels. I zip over there and get a Dewalt! The cheapie I ordered hasn't arrived yet. So, today I do measurements and the result isn't good. The low spot is maybe 1.25 inches or so above where you reach the sidewalk. Maybe 6 inches or so above the low point of the gutter in front of my driveway. Even if I were to burrow under the sidewalk and break out concrete to drain into the gutter, the fall wouldn't be more than maybe 5 inches. That point is 45 feet or so from the low point of the puddle, so the slope is rather less than the 1/4" per foot required. Going to have to do something else.

I'm going to measure again (probably this evening) in dimmer light, it was a sunny morning, but it doesn't look good.