Stupid Water Heater!

[zinfamous]

Okay: changed strategy.

Repair doesn't look reasonable, so I'm just going to buy a new NG tank water heater and have it installed. I'm not sure if it's better to go with say, Lowes for all of this or a plumbing company to take care of everything. I'm looking at 12 year, 40gallon units that Lowe's/HD have for ~$600. I'm not familiar with standard install pricing, all things being equal (no need to run new lines, etc), on a new NG unit. Any idea what those average costs would be? I tend to see total cost for unit and install of NG water heaters to be around $800-900, but no idea if that is weighted towards certain size/crappy units. (most likely?)

Thanks!

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Old post
So, I think I might need to replace my water heater but am still wondering if I can squeeze another year or two out of it.

I bought this house back in March, and knew that the water heater would need to be replaced in a couple of years, and was planning to install a tankless when that is needed, but after reading threads here and some online research, I decided that tankless really isn't that great of an option for me (really damn expensive for what seems like a mild benefit with new added hassles).

The water heater--I think it is State, don't recall off the top of my head--has a manufacture date of 2005. It's 40 gallon, natural gas. It's a 3 story house with currently ~2 people. I might be putting more people in this place in the future, as rental, but not sure. The tank is in the basement where the ground water is butt cold, so when this isn't running, the water is freezing--even on the wretched 95+ F days that we have been having.

A few months ago, the pilot light started going out. No leaks anywhere on the feeds, so I replaced the thermocouple. ...actually had to replace the whole manifold because this unit has all of that apparatus attached as one. Worked great again for another ~2 months....and last week the pilot started going out again. I get it lit, the heat plate turns on, but then it soon shuts off again. Probably within a few hours (I don't sit there and stare at it), but I know the pilot has gone off within 5 hours. I cleaned under the tank and loosened the manifold plate a bit to make sure plenty of air is getting through. Loosening the plate seemed to help a ton, as the flame on the heat plate seemed to gulp in a ton of O2 when I did that. So, there should be good air flow under the tank.

I haven't drained the tank and replaced the water, and I assume this has not been done with the unit...probably ever. It was a rental house for the previous ~5 years with a handful of tenants during that time. The tank doesn't make any kind of weird banging or moaning noises when it heats up, though.

So, I'm wondering if there is possibly an issue with the gas relay doohicky on the front of the unit (where the pilot knob sits, the manifold attaches--whatever you call that thing), and/or if draining will actually fix this issue? Is it really just old enough (~12 years) that it's time for a replacement? I've come to expect that these can last 20+ years, but that assumed that they are well maintained, no?

 

[Greenman]

It's kind of a crap shoot. I've had water heaters fail in the first year, and I've pulled 30 year old sears cheapo units that were still working. I wouldn't spend much time or effort on a 12 year old heater though. It almost certainly won't last another 5 years.

 

[zinfamous]

It's kind of a crap shoot. I've had water heaters fail in the first year, and I've pulled 30 year old sears cheapo units that were still working. I wouldn't spend much time or effort on a 12 year old heater though. It almost certainly won't last another 5 years.

Figured as much. There isn't much reason to be concerned about improper airflow in the basement area where this is installed, is there? It's the only issue that I can imagine outside of a faulty unit.

All that being said...Any consensus recommendations for a reliable, "American-made" manufacturer for NG water heaters these days? Lowes only seems to carry A.O. Smith, and while I'm not familiar with that brand, I'm way more partial to Lowes than I am Home Depot, but of course any other small dealers in the area that carry other brands is fine.

Thanks!

 

[Meghan54]

I went through the same thing 3 yrs. ago when we bought our current house. The drain valve had started leaking just enough to keep the bottom of the heater wet. Consequently, the bottom of the outer skin was badly rusted. Still held pressure and had good hot water production.


A few things I learned:

Brands don't seem that important in standard heaters. More importantly is the length of the warranty. Longer tank warranties can infer better internal construction, hence being the typical indicator of potential longevity.

Look for a brass drain valve vs. a plastic one if you can.

While manufacturers tout their first hour hot water output, while a salient point, the recovery rate is really more important.

 

[zinfamous]

I went through the same thing 3 yrs. ago when we bought our current house. The drain valve had started leaking just enough to keep the bottom of the heater wet. Consequently, the bottom of the outer skin was badly rusted. Still held pressure and had good hot water production.


A few things I learned:

Brands don't seem that important in standard heaters. More importantly is the length of the warranty. Longer tank warranties can infer better internal construction, hence being the typical indicator of potential longevity.

Look for a brass drain valve vs. a plastic one if you can.

While manufacturers tout their first hour hot water output, while a salient point, the recovery rate is really more important.

cool, thanks. I like the 12 year A.O. brands at Lowes with the glass interior, but they all seem to have plastic drain valves, which is really annoying. I don't understand why they devote so much effort into insulation, corrosion resistance, fancy rods and useless, stupid LED displays, and then tack on a plastic drain valve. wtf.

I imagine if I went with Lowes or HD for the install, they would just contract a local plumber anyway? Wondering if it's wiser to do this directly through a plumber that might have better options for the water heater anyway, or if that is just going to be way more expensive....also think I need to get a consultation first because a lot of the hookups here are really old and I want to make sure I have the proper space and hookups for what is available, and a better idea of final cost. ...one of the main reasons I abandoned the tankless option is because I will need to run a new line from the main feed because there is no way the current line will be able to feed a tankless unit.

 

[Pick2]

Have you checked the flue / chimney for blockage ? We had flame outs 1 or twice a year , always during gusty / turbulent weather and a self professed expert told us to put a "T" top on our pipe. We had a new furnace / water heater installed and We still get 1 -2 flame outs a year during gusty / turbulent weather ... Maybe I'll put a T top on the flue one of these years ... maybe He was right

 

[zinfamous]

Have you checked the flue / chimney for blockage ? We had flame outs 1 or twice a year , always during gusty / turbulent weather and a self professed expert told us to put a "T" top on our pipe. We had a new furnace / water heater installed and We still get 1 -2 flame outs a year during gusty / turbulent weather ... Maybe I'll put a T top on the flue one of these years ... maybe He was right

hmm, that's a good point. I need to borrow a ladder to get up there anyway, because there is roof work that needs to be done (gutters cleaned...and I have two roofs that need repair/replacement--where I planned to spend this money right now).

There are two chimneys that were capped and with a new storm grate placed over them as part of the contract, but the exhaust was never really checked...

 

[zinfamous]

Update/bump, posted in OP:

Big Box store vs local plumbers for new purchase and Install?

 

[Steve Logan]

How many people does you water heater service in your home zinfamous?

 

[Meghan54]

Update/bump, posted in OP:

Big Box store vs local plumbers for new purchase and Install?

From what we noticed when we priced gutter installs and our water heater install, the big box stores had higher install prices but had longer warranties on the product and installation than private businesses did.

But you'll get, usually, a local who contracts through Lowe's or HD and in return get to charge higher prices but has to conform to the store's warranty policies.

We did our gutters through Lowe's. The price was about $300 higher than if we'd gone small business. But the warranty provided by Lowe's on the install and product was double in length compared to what we'd been quoted by two local businesses.

Pick your poison.

 

[zinfamous]

How many people does you water heater service in your home zinfamous?

Currently 2, but I'm also planning up to ~5 if this place becomes more of a rental in the next several years (but maybe not within the lifetime of the water heater, unless SHTF). One dishwasher that I run maybe once every two weeks. Yeah...I'm really fricking thrifty.

From what we noticed when we priced gutter installs and our water heater install, the big box stores had higher install prices but had longer warranties on the product and installation than private businesses did.

But you'll get, usually, a local who contracts through Lowe's or HD and in return get to charge higher prices but has to conform to the store's warranty policies.

We did our gutters through Lowe's. The price was about $300 higher than if we'd gone small business. But the warranty provided by Lowe's on the install and product was double in length compared to what we'd been quoted by two local businesses.

Pick your poison.

Thanks for the tips, and sounds like what I was hearing. I did go to Lowe's yesterday and let the guy talk me down from a 12 year (would take ~3 weeks to arrive, special order, anyway) to a 9 year, + 5 year Lowe's warranty, which means $10 less for an extra 2 years on the warranty compared to the 12 year NG unit (40 gallon). I was sticking with 40 gallon because that is what I currently have, and has been sufficient, even on middle setting. The estimated install would be about ~$450, which includes hilarious MD $110 NG permit to install a gas appliance...all depending on on-site appraisal...which happened this morning.

....so, it looks like my exhaust chimney needs to be re-lined with thicker tubing (like current dryer exhaust tube), and one of the ports capped. Currently, the water heater and boiler have individual exhaust vents going into the chimney, so one needs to be capped and a T-joint installed between the two units, to have one exhaust into the chimney. The chimney is too high off of the roof (about 7 feet), so the plumber said that only chimney guys will work on it. He said it should probably cost ~$2k to bring the chimney up to code, before anyone will install a gas water heater.

Talked to the agent that helped me with the house, and he thought that estimate was actually low, and then said: look, dummy, just get an electric water heater. He's right, so that is what I will do. LoL: it would probably cost me ~$3-4k when all is said and done to install a fricking tanked NG water water because of the exhaust situation. I would never recover that cost compared to running an electric water heater during that time. No need to deal with exhaust that way, until maybe I need to replace the boiler (hopefully never)

 

[Meghan54]

Sounds like your decision was made for you, in effect. good luck!

 

[zinfamous]

Sounds like your decision was made for you, in effect. good luck!

yessir it was. Money is weird that way.

 

[Greenman]

cool, thanks. I like the 12 year A.O. brands at Lowes with the glass interior, but they all seem to have plastic drain valves, which is really annoying. I don't understand why they devote so much effort into insulation, corrosion resistance, fancy rods and useless, stupid LED displays, and then tack on a plastic drain valve. wtf.

I imagine if I went with Lowes or HD for the install, they would just contract a local plumber anyway? Wondering if it's wiser to do this directly through a plumber that might have better options for the water heater anyway, or if that is just going to be way more expensive....also think I need to get a consultation first because a lot of the hookups here are really old and I want to make sure I have the proper space and hookups for what is available, and a better idea of final cost. ...one of the main reasons I abandoned the tankless option is because I will need to run a new line from the main feed because there is no way the current line will be able to feed a tankless unit.

Before you buy from a big box store, google the model number. I've found that sometimes major appliances from Home depot or lowe's have an added alphanumeric to the model number. The reason is the manufacture uses lower quality parts to reduce price.

 

[Steve Logan]

If only servicing 2 people a tankless would work fine, even an electric would work fine for this. For 5 it would probably be better to go for a more powerful gas unit to meet the demand. There are some decent units but depends on budget etc obviously and shopping around is important, sites like http://tanklessheaterguide.com/ usually are quite helpful.

One thing to note is with installation your warranty is only valid if you have it installed by a professional which is quite typical with a lot of manufacturers. Installation costs are a big area where savings can be made if you find a good value for money provider.

 

[crashtech]

Warranty length has nothing to do with build quality in water heaters. it's just something you pay for when you buy one.

 

[Steve Logan]

If you look up manufacturers, even on amazon most will say it has to be installed by a professional for warranty to be valid

 

[zinfamous]

Warranty length has nothing to do with build quality in water heaters. it's just something you pay for when you buy one.

I'm referring to he manufacturer's warranty. Water Heaters are typically sold as 6, 9 or 12 year units, which is the manufacturer guaranteed life of the unit. Reading a couple of forums and guides, this generally correlates with the build quality--usually anti-corrosive interior walls and stuff like that only come with the longer-life units.

 

[zinfamous]

If only servicing 2 people a tankless would work fine, even an electric would work fine for this. For 5 it would probably be better to go for a more powerful gas unit to meet the demand. There are some decent units but depends on budget etc obviously and shopping around is important, sites like http://tanklessheaterguide.com/ usually are quite helpful.

One thing to note is with installation your warranty is only valid if you have it installed by a professional which is quite typical with a lot of manufacturers. Installation costs are a big area where savings can be made if you find a good value for money provider.

well, I'm definitely not doing tankless, for the reasons mentioned in the OP, even though I want to. Money always wins.

 

[crashtech]

I'm referring to he manufacturer's warranty. Water Heaters are typically sold as 6, 9 or 12 year units, which is the manufacturer guaranteed life of the unit. Reading a couple of forums and guides, this generally correlates with the build quality--usually anti-corrosive interior walls and stuff like that only come with the longer-life units.

All tanks are lined with glass, but the process is imperfect, and the interior inspections are not detailed enough to catch every flaw. So some will be more prone to leakage than others. The only difference in a manufacturer's tanks is that longer warranty units come with better anodes, a change that can be made at home for much less cost, but paying the extra for a longer warranty suits some buyers anyway.

 

[Meghan54]

I'm referring to he manufacturer's warranty. Water Heaters are typically sold as 6, 9 or 12 year units, which is the manufacturer guaranteed life of the unit. Reading a couple of forums and guides, this generally correlates with the build quality--usually anti-corrosive interior walls and stuff like that only come with the longer-life units.

Pretty much what I've gleaned from those and other sources, such as looking at cut open, brand new heaters. Better insulation, etc.

I'd go with the longest warrantied, most efficient one you can find. AO Smith seems to be fairly efficient through a lot of their elect. model lineup...moreso than other brands, although all new ones have to meet the 2015 efficiency standards put forth by the DoE.

Links to interesting reading on efficiency:
http://aceee.org/blog/2015/02/water-heaters-get-efficiency-makeover

https://www1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/appliance_standards/standards.aspx?productid=32

 

[zinfamous]

So, the original plumbers sent estimates (to Lowes) based on gas and electric install, claiming electric would be greater because of running a new line from the breaker box and going through the walls, etc.

But, they won't install anything, even electric, unless I fix the chimney issue. ...this makes no sense to me other than that they now know that it is an issue, so feel obligated to not do the job until all of that is fixed, even if it isn't related? Is it that capping the flue (where the vent from the gas heater would be removed) requires its own inspection and it wouldn't pass? Seems to me only installing a new unit matters. Anyway, dealing with company #2 and going with electric only. They are on break, though. yay!

Thanks for the links, Meghan54.

My plan to tolerate electric over gas (estimated annual $600 cost compared to $230 with gas--lol, new gas was always better, but never realized it was that bad) is to hook it up to a timer and wrap the thing in an insulated thermal blanket. It's colder than a witch's titty down in the basement, and I can only imagine what it would be like during the winter, which I haven't yet experienced in this place. Also, while I don't need 50 gallon for my use, it should be more efficient than 40 gallon at heat retention, because of efficient thermal properties of water, right?

damn, I want one of these! 80 year life?
http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/FunStuff/historypages/humphrey-automatic.html

 

[NutBucket]

Hell, you could build a super insulated box around the heater too.

Edit: now that you've decided on electric have you looked into the heat pump heaters? Suppose to be much more efficient.

 

[zinfamous]

Hell, you could build a super insulated box around the heater too.

Edit: now that you've decided on electric have you looked into the heat pump heaters? Suppose to be much more efficient.

yes I thought about them, but not only are they very expensive and there are height restrictions (I could likely fit one, but it would require extra plumbing to move pipes around), you need to maintain ~45-50 F in that space? (though I've heard new ratings require 35 F, is that true?) ....like I said, the utility room is colder than a witch's titty. Not sure if I would ever gain the benefits of a hybrid electric unit if the heat pump never activates in my space.

 

[NutBucket]

Yeah, I think anything sub 40 or so is no bueno....at least for heat pumps as far as hvac is concerned.