Stupid Europe

[KAZANI]

Greek/German retirement age:
http://aleksandreia.wordpress.com/2010/03/08/greek-retirement-age-and-more-on-the-greek-debt-crisis/

LOL, that's a blog entry with no references to authoritative sources of data. I will leave the blog entry's author to make my case, in his own words.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retirement

...needs more sources to meet quality standards...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,763294,00.html

Depends on who want to listen to, I guess. For instance:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/pensions/article-1696682/Rising-retirement-ages-in-Europe-compared.html
or, if you prefer a different opinion from SPIEGEL itself:
Merkel's Clichés Debunked by Statistics
...or better yet, a link to OECD Statistics on average effective age of retirement

I think GDP is pretty obvious and doesn't need any linking

But the original claim by DRIZZLE was:

Public workers in Greece get paid more

These links seem to support the idea that Greeks also have a better pension:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/charl...erous_pensions

In the article's author's own words:

...Greek pensions are a thicket of confusion. This is a blog posting, not a print article, so I have only been Googling this rather than making a dozen calls...

and:

Things like unemployment benefits are pretty miserly in Greece, the real money has always gone to pensions, which have been used as a "substitute" for other welfare policies.

Are we starting to see a picture of blurred lines here already?


moving on

http://www.businessinsider.com/gree...-4#pension-increase-2006-greece-4-germany-0-6

Oh, a cheesy anti-Greece hit-piece, in the form of a slideshow with BS statistics for captions, all in Bild's trademark yellow journalism style...how quaint!


...and at LAST, for the only tangible piece of facts you brought here:

http://www.oecd.org/document/49/0,37..._1_1_1,00.html

Greece spends more GDP on pensions than Germany, but only by a small margin:
Pension expenditure: (Public) 2007: 11.9% against 10.7% (by comparison, Austria spent 12.3%)
(Public and Private) 2007: 12.3% against 11.5% (Denmark spent 7.7%)

As one wades through the labyrinth of various data sub-sets, the plot thickens and one sees that there is no universall pensions scheme and various European countries have quite diverse approaches on their welfare system. For instance, average pension wealth in Greece is a bit higher than the one in Germany, but Greeks pay larger contributions towards their pension and healthcare and are taxed differently than German pensioners. On top of that you have different mixes of indirect taxes, social benefits etc, all of which make up a socioeconomic context particular to each state's welfare system and gross generalisations and aphorisms, like DRIZZLE's, are silly and irresponsible and only serve to foment animosity and division in Europe.

 

[KAZANI]

Lol, I'm a Greece bashing fanatic. I guess everyone else in the world is too since they needed a bailout because no one would buy their debt.

I suggest reading this book.

http://www.amazon.com/Boomerang-Trav.../dp/0393081818

Thanks for the book recommendation, but due to the austerity over here I think I'll settle for the standard crapper reading material (i.e. bodycare & detergent product packages)

 

[Exterous]

Depends on who want to listen to, I guess. For instance:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...ising-retirement-ages-in-Europe-compared.html

Eh? That one shows the average retirement age for Greece is 60 while its 62 for Germany.

And don't forget this:

With perks including early retirement for hundreds of supposedly 'arduous' professions such as hairdressers, butchers and cheese factory workers

or, if you prefer a different opinion from SPIEGEL itself:
Merkel's Clichés Debunked by Statistics
...or better yet, a link to OECD Statistics on average effective age of retirement

If you want to take a look at current reports from (the ones I linked) OECD regarding the 2011 year has 29% of Greeks above 65 still working while 32% of Germans above 65 are still working. It seems more Greeks are retiring earlier than Germans

In the article's author's own words:
and:

Just because it is confusing does not mean it is not true. I am less concered about the difficulty and more conserned about this point:

Greek pensions are a thicket of confusion. This is a blog posting, not a print article, so I have only been Googling this rather than making a dozen calls, but according to this conference paper, civil servants in Greece employed before 1992 can retire after 35 years service, if they have reached 58, and retire on 80% of their final basic salary. That certainly sounds a great deal more generous than similar civil service schemes in Germany, which seem to insist on 40 years of service, and set the pensions rates in the low 70% range of final basic salaries.

starting to see a picture of blurred lines here already?

We were not discussing enemployment benefits.

And while Greece does spend more of its GDP on pensions it does not matter that it is only a little bit more because not only is it more but Germany can sustain it (at least for the time being) and Greece cannot. This major difference only magnifies the expenditure problem for Greece

 

[cybrsage]

Thanks for the book recommendation, but due to the austerity over here I think I'll settle for the standard crapper reading material (i.e. bodycare & detergent product packages)

Really? I like to do sudoku.

 

[0roo0roo]

...

 

[bfdd]

The EU is manipulated by bankers and financial interests, while being ran by socialist idiots who play into their game.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

LOL, that's a blog entry with no references to authoritative sources of data. I will leave the blog entry's author to make my case, in his own words.



...needs more sources to meet quality standards...




Depends on who want to listen to, I guess. For instance:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/pensions/article-1696682/Rising-retirement-ages-in-Europe-compared.html
or, if you prefer a different opinion from SPIEGEL itself:
Merkel's Clichés Debunked by Statistics
...or better yet, a link to OECD Statistics on average effective age of retirement


But the original claim by DRIZZLE was:




In the article's author's own words:
and:


Are we starting to see a picture of blurred lines here already?


moving on


Oh, a cheesy anti-Greece hit-piece, in the form of a slideshow with BS statistics for captions, all in Bild's trademark yellow journalism style...how quaint!


...and at LAST, for the only tangible piece of facts you brought here:


Greece spends more GDP on pensions than Germany, but only by a small margin:
Pension expenditure: (Public) 2007: 11.9% against 10.7% (by comparison, Austria spent 12.3%)
(Public and Private) 2007: 12.3% against 11.5% (Denmark spent 7.7%)

As one wades through the labyrinth of various data sub-sets, the plot thickens and one sees that there is no universall pensions scheme and various European countries have quite diverse approaches on their welfare system. For instance, average pension wealth in Greece is a bit higher than the one in Germany, but Greeks pay larger contributions towards their pension and healthcare and are taxed differently than German pensioners. On top of that you have different mixes of indirect taxes, social benefits etc, all of which make up a socioeconomic context particular to each state's welfare system and gross generalisations and aphorisms, like DRIZZLE's, are silly and irresponsible and only serve to foment animosity and division in Europe.

I could fight with you line by line but I'm not sure what the point would be. The Greek government is clearly unable to meet its obligations and therefore must change. You can play the victim all you want but it's not going to solve your problems.

 

[blankslate]

This is kind of interesting...

Der Spiegel is a respected investigative magazine from Germany.

Funny how it's a rapacious financial company from the U.S. that helps facilitate this fiaso...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,676634,00.html

 

[amyklai]

I don't know what's so difficult to understand about the situation in Europe.

The PIIGS countries want Germany and other countries to pay for parts of their debts, because that's the easiest way out for them.

Germany (and other countries who will have to pay, like Netherlands, Finnland etc.) first want to see reforms of the EU and reforms inside the crisis countries before they agree to pay because they fear that otherwise there will be no / too little pressure to reform in the PIIGS countries. Which means there will be no reforms. Which means that the northern countries will have to pay forever.

So, the way this will play out is that there will be some quick reform pushes in Greece, Italy etc., then the ECB will get the green light to buy up more debt while Euro bonds will be prepared and then the Euro zone will issue Euro bonds of one kind or another.

In the end, the lasting stability of the Euro zone will mainly depend on whether there will be serious reforms in the PIIGS countries. IMO, Ireland and Spain will probably get it working, Portugal I don't know about and concerning Greece and Italy, I'm fairly pessimistic because the financial laissez-faire attitude seems to be deeply engrained in these societies and passing a few laws won't change that fact.




What's frightening is that the real challenges will only start in 10-20 years and will make this episode look like a prelude (because of the changing age structure of European societies). The stage for an ongoing crisis seems to be set.


And at the same time, the US is also sitting on a a debt (and inflation and pension) bomb of its own. And political blockades on top of that.

Funny that only 15 years ago, the western nations seemed to be at the top of their power and now it's looking like our comfy luxury times are going to be over soon.

 

[Dari]

This is kind of interesting...

Der Spiegel is a respected investigative magazine from Germany.

Funny how it's a rapacious financial company from the U.S. that helps facilitate this fiaso...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,676634,00.html

Nobody put a gun to their head and forced them to take these deals. The governments knew exactly what they were doing here.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

This is kind of interesting...

Der Spiegel is a respected investigative magazine from Germany.

Funny how it's a rapacious financial company from the U.S. that helps facilitate this fiaso...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,676634,00.html

That's 18 month old news. It also doesn't change any of the fundamentals of the situation. Everyone knows Goldman are scumbags but the bottom line is Greece spend more than it had and now must get its house in house in order.

 

[cybrsage]

Wait...spending more than you make...over a long period of time...is bad? When did this happen? I thought spending more money than you make is a good thing?

The dems lied to us!

 

[KAZANI]

Eh? That one shows the average retirement age for Greece is 60 while its 62 for Germany.

Gah! That's the problem with relying on news articles instead of linking directly to the original data. There is a Eurostat paper linked in that article. The average age for Greece in 2007 was 61.

If you want to take a look at current reports from (the ones I linked) OECD regarding the 2011 year has 29% of Greeks above 65 still working while 32% of Germans above 65 are still working. It seems more Greeks are retiring earlier than Germans

That's because the german pension scheme offers more incentives for people who stay employed beyond the statutory retirement age. BTW, this directly affects comparison of the upper limits of pensions between the two countries. In Germany not only late retirement yields higher accrual rates on the standard pension but there is no absolute limit like the one in Greece either.

We were not discussing enemployment benefits.

Ok, you are being a bit of an ass here. I think I explicitly argued about the importance of taking into account the socioeconomic context of welfare systems across the EU, so I protest that you imply I was using irrelevant abstractions, like unemployment benefits, as a smokescreen. By your rationale, one only needs to look at a single index out of all those datasets in order to reach safe conclusions about the pension system across all OECD countries.

And while Greece does spend more of its GDP on pensions it does not matter that it is only a little bit more because not only is it more but Germany can sustain it (at least for the time being) and Greece cannot. This major difference only magnifies the expenditure problem for Greece

I don't understand why the German model has to be the definitive measure for everything in Europe, considering that state has its own huge problems, but anyway, let's assume that fiscal orthodoxy is the end all and (admittedly) Greece pales in comparison. You still shouldn't point the finger at one sector of the economy (welfare) to place the blame for all of its economic ills. In any case, bold statements about Greeks enjoying more generous pensions than Germans ought to be put to more scrutiny.

 

[KAZANI]

I could fight with you line by line but I'm not sure what the point would be. The Greek government is clearly unable to meet its obligations and therefore must change. You can play the victim all you want but it's not going to solve your problems.

I am not portraying Greeks as victims. I am merely trying to put the debate about the undeniable need for a change of the economy in Greece on the right course. Claiming that a bloated pension scheme is all that needs fixing is derailing the discussion.

Still waiting for your fact sources.

 

[mshan]

"But no problem is more glaring than Italy’s thriving “shadow economy,” where evaded taxes on legal commerce coupled with lost taxes from illicit or under the table deals is costing the national treasury some $340 billion a year. If collected annually, that amount could pay back every last cent of Italy’s $2.6 trillion debt in just under eight years."

"If official tax returns are believed, this nation of 60 million with some of the most expensive urban real estate in the world is home to only 394,000 people earning more than $136,000 a year. Newspapers in Rome and Milan are rife with stories of “evasione totale ” – or entrepreneurs caught tooling around in Ferraris and Porsches despite declaring almost no income. Berlusconi himself managed to fend off at least two allegations of false accounting by forcing a law through parliament that decriminalized falsification of company accounting books."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...ax-evasion/2011/11/22/gIQAef4JtN_story_1.html

 

[Munky]

Maybe Germany knows that stimulus only works in the fantasy realm of Krugmanomics, and that this is a crisis of solvency and crisis of fraud, not a "crisis of confidence"

 

[Easy Rider]

Greece a default by Dec, 20

 

[Jaskalas]

Wait...spending more than you make...over a long period of time...is bad? When did this happen? I thought spending more money than you make is a good thing?

The dems lied to us!

Great, now if only the consequences of their actions would dissuade them from repeating it here.

The problem is they haven't felt the pain here yet. Bad as it is, they still think they're the solution. As if the Feds will sprinkle magic fairy dust and the dollar will still exist after they're done butchering it.

 

[rchiu]

I don't know what's so difficult to understand about the situation in Europe.

The PIIGS countries want Germany and other countries to pay for parts of their debts, because that's the easiest way out for them.

Germany (and other countries who will have to pay, like Netherlands, Finnland etc.) first want to see reforms of the EU and reforms inside the crisis countries before they agree to pay because they fear that otherwise there will be no / too little pressure to reform in the PIIGS countries. Which means there will be no reforms. Which means that the northern countries will have to pay forever.

So, the way this will play out is that there will be some quick reform pushes in Greece, Italy etc., then the ECB will get the green light to buy up more debt while Euro bonds will be prepared and then the Euro zone will issue Euro bonds of one kind or another.

In the end, the lasting stability of the Euro zone will mainly depend on whether there will be serious reforms in the PIIGS countries. IMO, Ireland and Spain will probably get it working, Portugal I don't know about and concerning Greece and Italy, I'm fairly pessimistic because the financial laissez-faire attitude seems to be deeply engrained in these societies and passing a few laws won't change that fact.

What's frightening is that the real challenges will only start in 10-20 years and will make this episode look like a prelude (because of the changing age structure of European societies). The stage for an ongoing crisis seems to be set.

And at the same time, the US is also sitting on a a debt (and inflation and pension) bomb of its own. And political blockades on top of that.

Funny that only 15 years ago, the western nations seemed to be at the top of their power and now it's looking like our comfy luxury times are going to be over soon.

The problem in Europe is really forcing different political entities, with different philosophies, different interests and different goals to be under the same economic system.

You are basically forcing the conservatives, those responsible countries to shoulder the sins of free spenders because they are in the same economic system and will suffer the same if they don't help out. When they ask the free spenders to take some fiscal responsibilities, the free spenders don't like to be told what to do.

EU is basically an experiment to challenge each member's tendency to focus on self interest, and look like the experiment is heading to a total failure.

 

[amyklai]

The problem in Europe is really forcing different political entities, with different philosophies, different interests and different goals to be under the same economic system.

You are basically forcing the conservatives, those responsible countries to shoulder the sins of free spenders because they are in the same economic system and will suffer the same if they don't help out. When they ask the free spenders to take some fiscal responsibilities, the free spenders don't like to be told what to do.

EU is basically an experiment to challenge each member's tendency to focus on self interest, and look like the experiment is heading to a total failure.

Actually, the only thing that really differentiates the EU from the US is the willingness to print money (or lack thereof):

Both the Euro zone and the US:
- have very productive and very unproductive regions all with the same currency
- have too much existing debt
- are running a too high deficit
- suffer from differing political views which prevent getting to a solution quickly

Only difference is that Bernanke has been flying around dropping money from his moneycopters for three years now while Merkel doesn't like that kind of solution.
But, while dropping freshly printed money from moneycopters might have a soothing effect in the short term, you've got to ask yourself how long you can sustain dropping money and lowering interest rates. That kind of stuff doesn't work long term without nasty side effects.

 

[zlejedi]

That's what happens when you let socialist rule for too long instead of shooting them on sight

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Why don't you put your ideology aside and look at the facts. Public workers in Greece get paid more, retire earlier, and receive more generous pensions then their counterparts in Germany despite Greece having a much lower GDP per capita than Germany. It's simply not sustainable/

sounds like our public workers vs private.
public may or may not pay more here, but they sure have much better retirement benefits that they can collect at a much earlier age.
yet, they won't budge an inch. we're headed down the same path.