Stupid Europe

[Dari]

Now that the Eurozone is fighting for its life, I can't help but laugh at the two leading nations, Germany (being the true leader) and France, telling the lesser nations that they need to shape up. It was these same two countries that "reformed" the Stability and Growth Pact, which sought to punish nations that had a deficit of 3% or greater. They pressured the EU into watering it down in the mid 2000s when they themselves were threatened with breaking the pact. Now they're harping about lowering spending and balanced budgets to other countries. Fools.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stability_and_Growth_Pact

The Stability and Growth Pact (SGP) is an agreement among the 17 Member states of the European Union that take part in the Eurozone, to facilitate and maintain the stability of the Economic and Monetary Union. Based primarily on Articles 121 and 126[1] of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, it consists of fiscal monitoring of members by the European Commission and the Council of Ministers and, after multiple warnings, sanctions[2] against offending members.

The pact was adopted in 1997,[3] so that fiscal discipline would be maintained and enforced in the EMU. Member states adopting the euro have to meet the Maastricht convergence criteria, and the SGP ensures that they continue to observe them.
The actual criteria that member states must respect:
an annual budget deficit no higher than 3% of GDP (this includes the sum of all public budgets, including municipalities, regions, etc.)
a national debt lower than 60% of GDP or approaching that value.

The SGP was initially proposed by German finance minister Theo Waigel in the mid 1990s. Germany had long maintained a low-inflation policy, which had been an important part of the German strong economy's performance since the 1950s; the German government hoped to ensure the continuation of that policy through the SGP which would limit the ability of governments to exert inflationary pressures on the European economy.

 

[sandorski]

Laugh? Better to learn what happens when you become too rigid based upon Ideology(Germany). Rigidity works fine when needed, but has disastrous consequences when not needed. This is what's playing out in the EU and what's a major problem in the US as well.

 

[Genx87]

Laugh? Better to learn what happens when you become too rigid based upon Ideology(Germany). Rigidity works fine when needed, but has disastrous consequences when not needed. This is what's playing out in the EU and what's a major problem in the US as well.

Maybe Germany is sick of extending credit to countries not interested in fixing their issues and risk not being paid back.

 

[sandorski]

Maybe Germany is sick of extending credit to countries not interested in fixing their issues and risk not being paid back.

Maybe, but they have been too focused on keeping Inflation low and Deficit elimination. Trying to get them to Stimulate is like pulling teeth.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

Why don't you put your ideology aside and look at the facts. Public workers in Greece get paid more, retire earlier, and receive more generous pensions then their counterparts in Germany despite Greece having a much lower GDP per capita than Germany. It's simply not sustainable/

 

[sandorski]

Why don't you put your ideology aside and look at the facts. Public workers in Greece get paid more, retire earlier, and receive more generous pensions then their counterparts in Germany despite Greece having a much lower GDP per capita than Germany. It's simply not sustainable/

Who is this post directed at?

 

[Jaskalas]

Who is this post directed at?

You damned fools who want to burn the currencies to inflate the bubble of fake wealth.

The damage your stimulus will cause is well beyond repair. It cannot be repaid.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

Who is this post directed at?

The OP.

 

[Jhhnn]

Maybe Germany is sick of extending credit to countries not interested in fixing their issues and risk not being paid back.

Maybe, but they have been too focused on keeping Inflation low and Deficit elimination. Trying to get them to Stimulate is like pulling teeth.

Germany, via the ECB, is playing with fire, the downfall of the Euro & their own banks.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/19/incredible-europeans/

It is, for sure, what Repubs would be doing in this country if they had their way- Hard Money! which benefits the have a helluva lots at the expense of everybody else.

Anybody who thinks that the downfall of the Euro won't affect us negatively on this side of the Atlantic isn't thinking. Our own TBTF financial institutions are counterparties to all sorts of financial instruments with the European banks.

 

[Jhhnn]

Why don't you put your ideology aside and look at the facts. Public workers in Greece get paid more, retire earlier, and receive more generous pensions then their counterparts in Germany despite Greece having a much lower GDP per capita than Germany. It's simply not sustainable/

Nobody here has claimed that it is. What you offer was entirely evident *before* German & French bankers gave the Greeks more chain than they could swim with.

The past is immutable. What matters now is what course of action will best serve the EU, and hard money isn't it. Germany can let the debtor nations inflate away part of their debt, suffer some reduced purchasing power of their own in the process, or they can try to stiff-dick Greece & the rest, in which case they'll destroy the Euro, which would likely cause them a helluva lot more damage down the road. Greece can withdraw from the monetary union, stiff their creditors entirely, and not suffer any more than under the terms that the ECB offers, likely less.

At some point or another, people have to get down off their moral high horse & make the best of things, compromise. If they don't, the other people involved will often just say screw you- if I'm going down, you are too. Suck it, biatch.

What the Hell will Germany do if that happens? Invade, take Greeks as slaves, or what?

 

[William Gaatjes]

Maybe Germany is sick of extending credit to countries not interested in fixing their issues and risk not being paid back.

Part of the problem is that a large part of the debt the Greeks have to pay back to Germany (and France) is because of weapon sales from Germany and France to the Greeks. I remember that it was collectively about 110 billion Euro's not so long ago. The reason why the Greeks where allowed in, was for geopolitical reasons. And because Greece bought a lot of weapons for the Cyprus issue with Turkey. Great market to sell weapons... Idiots... now they have been played for fools by the Greeks and we can all in the EU bend over.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Why don't you put your ideology aside and look at the facts. Public workers in Greece get paid more, retire earlier, and receive more generous pensions then their counterparts in Germany despite Greece having a much lower GDP per capita than Germany. It's simply not sustainable/

True. And Italy is next to follow.

 

[William Gaatjes]

I should mention the Dutch are also a large scale military weapon supplier(mostly shipping through) . It seems mostly defensive systems are produced here if that would mean anything at all.

 

[davmat787]

I should mention the Dutch are also a large scale military weapon supplier(mostly shipping through) . It seems mostly defensive systems are produced here if that would mean anything at all.

Yea, you guys sure know how to build sea-fairing vessels, among the best out there along with probably Norway right? :thumbsup:

 

[William Gaatjes]

Yea, you guys sure know how to build sea-fairing vessels, among the best out there along with probably Norway right? :thumbsup:

You might find it difficult to raise that thumb once you find out who bought a lot of those vessels... :\

From background information : Greece bought around 10 sea-fairing war vessels type "S-fregat" from the Dutch around 2001-2003. These vessels where originally about 20 years old but before being sold to Greece, completely revised with the latest technology....

 

[0roo0roo]

kyle bass splains it all
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsCGI7s1SB

 

[davmat787]

You might find it difficult to raise that thumb once you find out who bought a lot of those vessels... :\

I was speaking more to the long Dutch tradition of ship building, tis all.

But hey, Greece needs someway for their .gov to employ all their citizens, you can fit a lot of personnel on a frigate. Is how Greece financed those purchases a direct problem for your country at this point? If that makes sense I guess.

edit: I assume these are the type of frigate that was sold to the greeks?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elli_class_frigate

 

[William Gaatjes]

I was speaking more to the long Dutch tradition of ship building, tis all.

But hey, Greece needs someway for their .gov to employ all their citizens, you can fit a lot of personnel on a frigate. Is how Greece financed those purchases a direct problem for your country at this point? If that makes sense I guess.

edit: I assume these are the type of frigate that was sold to the greeks?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elli_class_frigate

To be honest, i know the Dutch have indeed a history of ships building. But i have no idea if the Dutch vessels are the best. I assume that is the case. But we where not the only one. As a side note, builders of huge ancient ships, look at the history of China. Those where floating fortresses.

To be honest, Greece has been scamming the financial books for over a decade now. And the worst part is that the Greek rich elite has billions of euro's. Money that should be taken from them(since they messed up) in order to get Greece and the EU back on the feet.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=32521193#post32521193

During the time the Dutch sold those vessels, Greece was doing business with Goldman Sachs as well(swap transactions). In the end, we all pay here in the EU for the rich thieves in Greece. But in all honesty, those same rich thieves we can also find in Italy, Spain, Portugal. And not to forget in north west Europe.

 

[0roo0roo]

To be honest, i know the Dutch have indeed a history of ships building. But i have no idea if the Dutch vessels are the best. I assume that is the case. But we where not the only one. As a side note, builders of huge ancient ships, look at the history of China. Those where floating fortresses.

To be honest, Greece has been scamming the financial books for over a decade now. And the worst part is that the Greek rich elite has billions of euro's. Money that should be taken from them(since they messed up) in order to get Greece and the EU back on the feet.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=32521193#post32521193

During the time the Dutch sold those vessels, Greece was doing business with Goldman Sachs as well(swap transactions). In the end, we all pay here in the EU for the rich thieves in Greece. But in all honesty, those same rich thieves we can also find in Italy, Spain, Portugal. And not to forget in north west Europe.

and as kyle bass says, you'll pay until you cut ties. you bail them out once, and then what, they are back to their old games and then you are back to square one.

 

[William Gaatjes]

and as kyle bass says, you'll pay until you cut ties. you bail them out once, and then what, they are back to their old games and then you are back to square one.

I agree.
A democracy is needed for peace and continuity.
A dictator is needed to make changes. (See China).
After the changes, democracy must rule again.

That makes me think of ancient Rome, but they did not think properly at that time.

When it comes to Greece or the other problem countries, there are enough ordinary people who accept that there need to be changes. But what the Greek rich elite is doing now even more then ever, is not solving problems. It is creating more problems.

 

[Dari]

Why don't you put your ideology aside and look at the facts. Public workers in Greece get paid more, retire earlier, and receive more generous pensions then their counterparts in Germany despite Greece having a much lower GDP per capita than Germany. It's simply not sustainable/

That is obvious. But does not change the fact that the SGP could have caught these problems far earlier had France and Germany not had it watered down.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

Nobody here has claimed that it is. What you offer was entirely evident *before* German & French bankers gave the Greeks more chain than they could swim with.

The past is immutable. What matters now is what course of action will best serve the EU, and hard money isn't it. Germany can let the debtor nations inflate away part of their debt, suffer some reduced purchasing power of their own in the process, or they can try to stiff-dick Greece & the rest, in which case they'll destroy the Euro, which would likely cause them a helluva lot more damage down the road. Greece can withdraw from the monetary union, stiff their creditors entirely, and not suffer any more than under the terms that the ECB offers, likely less.

At some point or another, people have to get down off their moral high horse & make the best of things, compromise. If they don't, the other people involved will often just say screw you- if I'm going down, you are too. Suck it, biatch.

What the Hell will Germany do if that happens? Invade, take Greeks as slaves, or what?

Even if they wanted to do that it's not that simple. Once you start allowing inflation the central bank looses all credibility and it can spiral out of control very quickly. Ask Paul Volker what he thinks of your idea.

 

[KAZANI]

Why don't you put your ideology aside and look at the facts. Public workers in Greece get paid more, retire earlier, and receive more generous pensions then their counterparts in Germany despite Greece having a much lower GDP per capita than Germany.

Where do you Greece-bashing fanatics get your facts from?

 

[Exterous]

Where do you Greece-bashing fanatics get your facts from?

Greek/German retirement age:
http://aleksandreia.wordpress.com/2010/03/08/greek-retirement-age-and-more-on-the-greek-debt-crisis/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retirement
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,763294,00.html

Greece announced reforms to its pension system in early 2010 aimed at reducing early retirement and raising the average age of retirement to 63. Incentives to keep workers in the labor market beyond 65 have likewise been adopted. Germany voted in 2007 to raise the retirement age from 65 to 67 over the next several years.

Just the first 3 links I got on the retirement age.

I think GDP is pretty obvious and doesn't need any linking

These links seem to support the idea that Greeks also have a better pension:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2010/02/greeces_generous_pensions
http://www.businessinsider.com/gree...-4#pension-increase-2006-greece-4-germany-0-6
This last one shows the Greeks spend more GDP on pensions than Germany and appears to show that Greeks have a higher payout and much higher potential pension although I did not dig into the numbers too deeply (also supports the retirement age argument)
http://www.oecd.org/document/49/0,3746,en_2649_34757_42992113_1_1_1_1,00.html


I would be interested in any links you have refuting this information

 

[the DRIZZLE]

Where do you Greece-bashing fanatics get your facts from?

Lol, I'm a Greece bashing fanatic. I guess everyone else in the world is too since they needed a bailout because no one would buy their debt.

I suggest reading this book.

http://www.amazon.com/Boomerang-Trav.../dp/0393081818