Study finds job growth concentrated at the bottom of the scale

GrGr

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Sep 25, 2003
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New look at U.S. employment outlook

By Kathleen Maclay, Media Relations | 14 October 2004

BERKELEY ? The economy may be on the mend, but the strongest job growth is in positions paying the least, and long-stagnant wages are slipping, says a report released today (Thursday, Oct. 14) by a researcher at the University of California, Berkeley.

Arindrajit Dube, an economist with the Institute of Industrial Relations, pored through recent U.S. household survey data to examine changes in job numbers and wage distribution in 440 employment categories in 2001, during the 2002- 2003 recovery period, and in the first eight months of 2004. In "Are Jobs Getting Worse?" Dube analyzes changes in the average wage, the distribution of wages, and the types of jobs that are increasing or decreasing.

"What's growing versus shrinking in terms of jobs is important," said Dube. "Combined with a weak labor market, wages have been fairly stagnant during this recovery, and this year, they've actually fallen."

He found that the growth of jobs paying at the bottom third of the market outpaced those paying at the middle by nearly 2 to 1, while there was a reduction in the number of jobs paying at the top third.

Another report from the Heritage Foundation issued earlier this month concluded that average earnings for non-executives were 2 percent higher than at the peak of the dot-com boom, but Dube said that happened mostly in 2001, and the current trend is a slowdown and reversal of that.

"The weak labor market and the job quality gap have meant that the wages of workers have taken a hit," according to Dube's report. "After stagnating for two years since the end of the recession, the average wage actually declined in 2004 once inflation was accounted for. The wage decline was the greatest for the bottom half of the workforce - so the disparity in wages rose."


Dube noted that over the past four years, job categories that grew paid an average of $1.66 an hour less than categories where jobs were disappearing.

This year, he found that jobs in expanding employment categories pay an average of $1.90 an hour less than jobs in categories where numbers are shrinking.

Shrinking jobs were concentrated around those paying $13 an hour; growing jobs paid around $9 an hour.

Dube said that in the past year there appears to be job growth of almost 2 percent in the middle salary range in professions such as nursing, while wages for workers in the top-third pay range have fallen about 1.4 percent. All this has occurred while growth in jobs in the bottom third pay range, such as those in restaurants and hotels, surged by 3.7 percent.

The study makes no policy recommendations. "Because the job quality issue is being talked about so much, I'm trying to get the basic facts out there," said Dube.

While other job and wage studies have explored similar issues to those in his study, Dube said his work differs in its use of the most current employment figures, more industry and occupation categories, and an examination of the entire range of growing and disappearing jobs - not just average differences between the two.

Dube's report can be found online at http://www.iir.berkeley.edu/research/jobquality.pdf.

link
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
*sigh*...I see it everyday in my company....as almost 2000 jobs are leaving going to Mexico. People are taking whatever jobs they can find. Many, who have worked at these plants for 15 years are now making much less than what they were.....

Ross was indeed right...that "Giant Sucking Sound".
 

ReiAyanami

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2002
4,466
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0
my dad had to follow his job to china and now makes 60% less than he used to.

but don't worry, top executives still enjoy wage hikes for themselves with record bonuses and tax cuts. i mean we wouldn't want to leave any billionaire behind would we?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,591
6,715
126
Originally posted by: Engineer
*sigh*...I see it everyday in my company....as almost 2000 jobs are leaving going to Mexico. People are taking whatever jobs they can find. Many, who have worked at these plants for 15 years are now making much less than what they were.....

Ross was indeed right...that "Giant Sucking Sound".

Anybody who says anything bad against business is a kook.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Engineer
*sigh*...I see it everyday in my company....as almost 2000 jobs are leaving going to Mexico. People are taking whatever jobs they can find. Many, who have worked at these plants for 15 years are now making much less than what they were.....

Ross was indeed right...that "Giant Sucking Sound".



So why are those jobs headed to mexico?
 

Ferocious

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2000
4,584
2
71
This is just furthur proof that free trade agreements, though good in theory, are flawed.

We need to have them, but they need not be anti- American worker.

I don't pretend to know the answer.

But something needs to be done soon......the middle class is getting weaker.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Engineer
*sigh*...I see it everyday in my company....as almost 2000 jobs are leaving going to Mexico. People are taking whatever jobs they can find. Many, who have worked at these plants for 15 years are now making much less than what they were.....

Ross was indeed right...that "Giant Sucking Sound".



So why are those jobs headed to mexico?


My company expects a 10 to 15% margin. Companies from Japan have moved to the US recently (not Mexico) and have accepted a 4% margin. The only way to get the 10 to 15% margin and compete with them is to move operations to Mexico...even though shipping (including from Mexico to Canada) will hurt them. The flip side to that is if the Japanese firms move to Mexico also and accept a 4% margin, then what?

Another factor is that the "incentives" that you see on cars today....the manufacturer doesn't eat all of that...or even most. The automakers push the cuts down to the suppliers and threaten to move business to your competition if you don't comply.

There were also downside pressures from other tubing companies in Mexico that contributed to this shift.

The payback period was expected to be 4 to 6 years (before breaking even after the buyouts and building new buildings, etc). It has increased now because of fuel prices and shipping costs.


 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Engineer
*sigh*...I see it everyday in my company....as almost 2000 jobs are leaving going to Mexico. People are taking whatever jobs they can find. Many, who have worked at these plants for 15 years are now making much less than what they were.....

Ross was indeed right...that "Giant Sucking Sound".



So why are those jobs headed to mexico?


My company expects a 10 to 15% margin. Companies from Japan have moved to the US recently (not Mexico) and have accepted a 4% margin. The only way to get the 10 to 15% margin and compete with them is to move operations to Mexico...even though shipping (including from Mexico to Canada) will hurt them. The flip side to that is if the Japanese firms move to Mexico also and accept a 4% margin, then what?

Another factor is that the "incentives" that you see on cars today....the manufacturer doesn't eat all of that...or even most. The automakers push the cuts down to the suppliers and threaten to move business to your competition if you don't comply.

There were also downside pressures from other tubing companies in Mexico that contributed to this shift.

The payback period was expected to be 4 to 6 years (before breaking even after the buyouts and building new buildings, etc). It has increased now because of fuel prices and shipping costs.


So what is keeping them from a 10-15% margin here?
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Engineer
*sigh*...I see it everyday in my company....as almost 2000 jobs are leaving going to Mexico. People are taking whatever jobs they can find. Many, who have worked at these plants for 15 years are now making much less than what they were.....

Ross was indeed right...that "Giant Sucking Sound".



So why are those jobs headed to mexico?


My company expects a 10 to 15% margin. Companies from Japan have moved to the US recently (not Mexico) and have accepted a 4% margin. The only way to get the 10 to 15% margin and compete with them is to move operations to Mexico...even though shipping (including from Mexico to Canada) will hurt them. The flip side to that is if the Japanese firms move to Mexico also and accept a 4% margin, then what?

Another factor is that the "incentives" that you see on cars today....the manufacturer doesn't eat all of that...or even most. The automakers push the cuts down to the suppliers and threaten to move business to your competition if you don't comply.

There were also downside pressures from other tubing companies in Mexico that contributed to this shift.

The payback period was expected to be 4 to 6 years (before breaking even after the buyouts and building new buildings, etc). It has increased now because of fuel prices and shipping costs.


So what is keeping them from a 10-15% margin here?


Because of the two Japanese firms taking business from them because they are willing to work on a 4% margin (biggest reason). Other reasons noted above (cutbacks from automakers (because of incentives)).

Automation doesn't even matter. Many completely automated platforms (1 operator loads and unloads) that have taken the place of up to 8 workers is going to Mexico.

I'm not sure of the tax situation from Mexico.

I do know that we ship many products to the US and repackage/reship to avoid being paid in Pecos...:roll:
(automakers pay in Pecos if the products arrives direct from Mexico)
 

Ferocious

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2000
4,584
2
71
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Engineer
*sigh*...I see it everyday in my company....as almost 2000 jobs are leaving going to Mexico. People are taking whatever jobs they can find. Many, who have worked at these plants for 15 years are now making much less than what they were.....

Ross was indeed right...that "Giant Sucking Sound".



So why are those jobs headed to mexico?


My company expects a 10 to 15% margin. Companies from Japan have moved to the US recently (not Mexico) and have accepted a 4% margin. The only way to get the 10 to 15% margin and compete with them is to move operations to Mexico...even though shipping (including from Mexico to Canada) will hurt them. The flip side to that is if the Japanese firms move to Mexico also and accept a 4% margin, then what?

Another factor is that the "incentives" that you see on cars today....the manufacturer doesn't eat all of that...or even most. The automakers push the cuts down to the suppliers and threaten to move business to your competition if you don't comply.

There were also downside pressures from other tubing companies in Mexico that contributed to this shift.

The payback period was expected to be 4 to 6 years (before breaking even after the buyouts and building new buildings, etc). It has increased now because of fuel prices and shipping costs.


So what is keeping them from a 10-15% margin here?

Executive pay? Employee pay? Tax rates here? Bad mangement? Lousy workers? Bad products or services? The list goes on and on.

The thing with Mexico....is that even though they have a high tax rate...their labor is soooooo cheap.....bad management decisions are often absorbed.



 
Sep 29, 2004
18,656
67
91
Not sure if this is news. The middle class is disappearing along with manufacturing jobs. ALl that's left is selling products made in China at Wal-Mart for minimum wage.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
I do agree that bad decisions were made along the way also. There was an indication that many of the automakers were not going to pay for tooling (they currently do). This was 3 years ago. It would be up to our company to capitalize the tooling and try to make it up in piece price. Our company jumped the gun and purchased $25,000,000 worth of CNC tube benders. These bender have turned to be very slow and very expensive compared to a custom built power bender, but they are more flexible in that they can be reprogrammed very quickly to run other parts (power benders take weeks or months to change...if they can be changed at all).

3 years later, the automakers are still paying for tooling and will continue to do so. Our competitors have gained the tooling profit (automakers allow 10%) for the past 3 years while we have not only lost the tooling profit, but added to the loss of profit by spending $25,000,000 on capital equipment.

One mention I had forgot about: We have lost quite a bit of business to a Canadian company also including the GMT900 Siverado truck package.....a real money maker.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Engineer
*sigh*...I see it everyday in my company....as almost 2000 jobs are leaving going to Mexico. People are taking whatever jobs they can find. Many, who have worked at these plants for 15 years are now making much less than what they were.....

Ross was indeed right...that "Giant Sucking Sound".



So why are those jobs headed to mexico?


My company expects a 10 to 15% margin. Companies from Japan have moved to the US recently (not Mexico) and have accepted a 4% margin. The only way to get the 10 to 15% margin and compete with them is to move operations to Mexico...even though shipping (including from Mexico to Canada) will hurt them. The flip side to that is if the Japanese firms move to Mexico also and accept a 4% margin, then what?

Another factor is that the "incentives" that you see on cars today....the manufacturer doesn't eat all of that...or even most. The automakers push the cuts down to the suppliers and threaten to move business to your competition if you don't comply.

There were also downside pressures from other tubing companies in Mexico that contributed to this shift.

The payback period was expected to be 4 to 6 years (before breaking even after the buyouts and building new buildings, etc). It has increased now because of fuel prices and shipping costs.


So what is keeping them from a 10-15% margin here?


Because of the two Japanese firms taking business from them because they are willing to work on a 4% margin (biggest reason). Other reasons noted above (cutbacks from automakers (because of incentives)).

Automation doesn't even matter. Many completely automated platforms (1 operator loads and unloads) that have taken the place of up to 8 workers is going to Mexico.

I'm not sure of the tax situation from Mexico.

I do know that we ship many products to the US and repackage/reship to avoid being paid in Pecos...:roll:
(automakers pay in Pecos if the products arrives direct from Mexico)



I have a hard time beleiving that a 5% cost cutting could not be acheived.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Ferocious
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Engineer
*sigh*...I see it everyday in my company....as almost 2000 jobs are leaving going to Mexico. People are taking whatever jobs they can find. Many, who have worked at these plants for 15 years are now making much less than what they were.....

Ross was indeed right...that "Giant Sucking Sound".



So why are those jobs headed to mexico?


My company expects a 10 to 15% margin. Companies from Japan have moved to the US recently (not Mexico) and have accepted a 4% margin. The only way to get the 10 to 15% margin and compete with them is to move operations to Mexico...even though shipping (including from Mexico to Canada) will hurt them. The flip side to that is if the Japanese firms move to Mexico also and accept a 4% margin, then what?

Another factor is that the "incentives" that you see on cars today....the manufacturer doesn't eat all of that...or even most. The automakers push the cuts down to the suppliers and threaten to move business to your competition if you don't comply.

There were also downside pressures from other tubing companies in Mexico that contributed to this shift.

The payback period was expected to be 4 to 6 years (before breaking even after the buyouts and building new buildings, etc). It has increased now because of fuel prices and shipping costs.


So what is keeping them from a 10-15% margin here?

Executive pay? Employee pay? Tax rates here? Bad mangement? Lousy workers? Bad products or services? The list goes on and on.

The thing with Mexico....is that even though they have a high tax rate...their labor is soooooo cheap.....bad management decisions are often absorbed.

I have no doubt many of things listed are part of the problem.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Engineer
*sigh*...I see it everyday in my company....as almost 2000 jobs are leaving going to Mexico. People are taking whatever jobs they can find. Many, who have worked at these plants for 15 years are now making much less than what they were.....

Ross was indeed right...that "Giant Sucking Sound".



So why are those jobs headed to mexico?


My company expects a 10 to 15% margin. Companies from Japan have moved to the US recently (not Mexico) and have accepted a 4% margin. The only way to get the 10 to 15% margin and compete with them is to move operations to Mexico...even though shipping (including from Mexico to Canada) will hurt them. The flip side to that is if the Japanese firms move to Mexico also and accept a 4% margin, then what?

Another factor is that the "incentives" that you see on cars today....the manufacturer doesn't eat all of that...or even most. The automakers push the cuts down to the suppliers and threaten to move business to your competition if you don't comply.

There were also downside pressures from other tubing companies in Mexico that contributed to this shift.

The payback period was expected to be 4 to 6 years (before breaking even after the buyouts and building new buildings, etc). It has increased now because of fuel prices and shipping costs.


So what is keeping them from a 10-15% margin here?


Because of the two Japanese firms taking business from them because they are willing to work on a 4% margin (biggest reason). Other reasons noted above (cutbacks from automakers (because of incentives)).

Automation doesn't even matter. Many completely automated platforms (1 operator loads and unloads) that have taken the place of up to 8 workers is going to Mexico.

I'm not sure of the tax situation from Mexico.

I do know that we ship many products to the US and repackage/reship to avoid being paid in Pecos...:roll:
(automakers pay in Pecos if the products arrives direct from Mexico)



I have a hard time beleiving that a 5% cost cutting could not be acheived.


Labor only accounts for 8% of our product. Throw shipping (across the US to Canada in some cases) in and see how it turns out. Many of the shipping times have increased from as low as 1 hour to as much as 4 days). Just in time manufactuering doesn't work well in that case. The reason that the payback period has increased (and is increasing) is the cost of fuel for the long shipping.

On a somewhat bright note, our gas tank division has decided to build a plant in Georgia and move back from Mexico because of the shipping costs and number of trucks used to ship gas tanks from Mexico to Alabama and South Carolina (Mercedes and BMW)
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: IHateMyJob2004
Not sure if this is news. The middle class is disappearing along with manufacturing jobs. ALl that's left is selling products made in China at Wal-Mart for minimum wage.



The middle class is not disappearing. More manufacturing jobs are lost to automation, than to outsourching.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Great study. Confirms what we've all suspected. This is the really what's threatening the American middle-class and even upper-middle class (and anyone else that earns what their income).

The solution? We could start by slowing down international trade. Doesn't mean we shouldn't go there, but that we need to slow things down. Also, fair trade agreements are needed. Trade with Europe doesn't hurt us because they have a similar standard of living and environmental protections. If someone wants to have completely free trade they need to be on the same footing as us at least in terms of employment protections and the like. I also think there should be some sort of international minimum wage for people in GATT.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: IHateMyJob2004
Not sure if this is news. The middle class is disappearing along with manufacturing jobs. ALl that's left is selling products made in China at Wal-Mart for minimum wage.



The middle class is not disappearing. More manufacturing jobs are lost to automation, than to outsourching.


Outsourcing a plant closes the entire plant and all involved are let go.

At least in automation, the plant is kept open and technical people (engineers and maintenance people) stay employeed.

I would rather keep 30% of my company's people employeed here than to have 100% in Mexico.

One other note: Even though my company "EXPECTS" 10 to 15% margin, it hasn't been up to par because of the automobile fallout (incentives, etc). $1.1 Billion in sales last year with a $45 million profit. All the same time, moving to Mexico and removing the match on 401k plans, removing the company retirement plan and raising all health care costs (I understand all healt care costs everywhere are going up..so no news there)
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: IHateMyJob2004
Not sure if this is news. The middle class is disappearing along with manufacturing jobs. ALl that's left is selling products made in China at Wal-Mart for minimum wage.



The middle class is not disappearing. More manufacturing jobs are lost to automation, than to outsourching.


Outsourcing a plant closes the entire plant and all involved are let go.

At least in automation, the plant is kept open and technical people (engineers and maintenance people) stay employeed.

I would rather keep 30% of my company's people employeed here than to have 100% in Mexico.



You right. I would also rather keep the work here, rather than mexico. But automation is killing assembly line workers jobs, more so than jobs being moved out of the country.

You are the engineer, maybe you can figure out a way to keep the plant here and sell it to your boss.
 
Sep 29, 2004
18,656
67
91
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Engineer
*sigh*...I see it everyday in my company....as almost 2000 jobs are leaving going to Mexico. People are taking whatever jobs they can find. Many, who have worked at these plants for 15 years are now making much less than what they were.....

Ross was indeed right...that "Giant Sucking Sound".

Anybody who says anything bad against business is a kook.

Good point. And at hte same time, Bush wants to make it easier for Mexicans to work i nte US at reduced wages. A policy Bush refuses to change. Outsourcing is good while we should hire foreigners in our own country. WTF!
 
Sep 29, 2004
18,656
67
91
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: IHateMyJob2004
Not sure if this is news. The middle class is disappearing along with manufacturing jobs. ALl that's left is selling products made in China at Wal-Mart for minimum wage.



The middle class is not disappearing. More manufacturing jobs are lost to automation, than to outsourching.

Oh, really. What's happened to the US Steel industry? That's not a big industry is it?
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: IHateMyJob2004
Not sure if this is news. The middle class is disappearing along with manufacturing jobs. ALl that's left is selling products made in China at Wal-Mart for minimum wage.



The middle class is not disappearing. More manufacturing jobs are lost to automation, than to outsourching.


Outsourcing a plant closes the entire plant and all involved are let go.

At least in automation, the plant is kept open and technical people (engineers and maintenance people) stay employeed.

I would rather keep 30% of my company's people employeed here than to have 100% in Mexico.



You right. I would also rather keep the work here, rather than mexico. But automation is killing assembly line workers jobs, more so than jobs being moved out of the country.

You are the engineer, maybe you can figure out a way to keep the plant here and sell it to your boss.

LOL...I'm a Controls/Automation Engineer....Ironic, eh? ;)

I sell the idea to my boss everyday...as he knows that if we don't automate, we close the tooling plant also (my plant).

 
Sep 29, 2004
18,656
67
91
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: IHateMyJob2004
Not sure if this is news. The middle class is disappearing along with manufacturing jobs. ALl that's left is selling products made in China at Wal-Mart for minimum wage.



The middle class is not disappearing. More manufacturing jobs are lost to automation, than to outsourching.


Outsourcing a plant closes the entire plant and all involved are let go.

At least in automation, the plant is kept open and technical people (engineers and maintenance people) stay employeed.

I would rather keep 30% of my company's people employeed here than to have 100% in Mexico.



You right. I would also rather keep the work here, rather than mexico. But automation is killing assembly line workers jobs, more so than jobs being moved out of the country.

You are the engineer, maybe you can figure out a way to keep the plant here and sell it to your boss.

Actually, employees are usually trained to operate those machines and do maintenance on them and progrmam them, etc.

And those machines are made somehwere (probably not in the US coincidentally, but htey should be) where people are employed manufacturing them, wriitng the software for them, etc.