Struggling with atheism, freaking out

[Jeff7]

I hear that a lot, in that people believe that life and the universe as a whole must exist for a reason and that we have purpose, but I really can't wrap my head around such a need. Can the universe simply exist without purpose? What if we as thinking beings weren't intended to be here, but just evolved naturally because the environment allowed us to?

Pretty much this.
Why do we exist? We're here because this environment was conducive to producing something like us.
Then you go into Feynman's bit: Ok, why was this environment conducive to producing something like us? Now you get to go into molecules, gravity, subatomic properties, the nature of causality, and eventually you go backwards into a singularity that we currently can't look past.

Here's the cosmological argument, if it helps. I think it's been pretty well established, by philosophy in Plato's time and by science since the Big Bang theory, that the universe is finite. So there's that.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia
1. Every finite and contingent being has a cause.
2. A causal loop cannot exist.
3. A causal chain cannot be of infinite length.
4. Therefore, a First Cause (or something that is not an effect) must exist.

As for why God has to be eternal, if you accept the cosmological argument, then "First Cause" must necessarily be eternal.

1. Every finite and contingent being has a cause.
Maybe that right there isn't accurate.

Yes, some of this stuff definitely goes into philosophy. Like the whole "stuff outside the Universe doesn't matter, so it effectively doesn't exist" statement.

There's stuff inside a black hole. Matter or energy crosses the event horizon. It's in there. The only way we can interact with it is by its gravity.
So what's in there? Don't know. And right now, we have no way of knowing, because our laws of physics don't have any way of describing a place where the escape velocity is higher than the speed of light, and where (presumably) the gravitational field present brings time to a complete stop. So what's in there? If it can't get out, and we can't observe it, is there anything there except for a ball of gravity-producing something?
Yes, there's something there. Sort of. But we've got no way of describing it in any meaningful capacity. So in that sense, it's sort of not there.

Or if there's something happening out on the other side of the galaxy right now: You have absolutely no way of perceiving it. So is it happening? Yes. Maybe. Maybe not. You have no way of knowing, so for any practical purposes, at this point in time, it doesn't exist. Someone there would say that it does. But they would also not know that we exist. Perception.

 

[Lifted]

Now you know why religion was created in the first place... as an easy answer to "why?".

Why are their little lights in the sky? God
Why does rubbing sticks, or rocks, or lighting, create fire? God
Why is Earth flat? God
Why do we die? God

It's easier now to be an atheist as we know the answers to many of these questions, and none of those answers are God. After only a few thousand years of human advancement, the easiest thing to know is that we don't know everything yet, and humanity will likely cease to exist before we even come close.

It's nice not knowing everything as it gives us something to look forward too.

 

[SlitheryDee]

This isn't really a problem for me. Part of being an atheist is getting a better idea of your place in the universe. We are nothing, or almost nothing, against the vast vastiness of the universe. I sometimes feel the sense that nothing we do here has much significance in the face of that, but at the same time I am usually able to attack the problems of my everyday life as though they are the most important things in the universe at that moment.

This makes sense to me when I view it in from an evolutionary perspective. To every creature that came before us, this planet might as well have been the entire universe. We may know more than those who came before us, but our instinctual response comes from millions of years of evolution that needed no input from anything else but terra firma. Suddenly we know (those of us who are able to admit it) how small we are. At times that knowledge can suddenly break in on us while we are going about our daily business in the form of "WTF am I in such a rush to mail these bills, I'm living on a speck that is lost in a cloud of specks that is again lost in another cloud of specks and none of this shit matters in the face of that". But it does. The universe isn't revolving around you, but you might as well act as though it is because your perspective is likely the only on you'll ever view it from.

 

[Smoblikat]

The feelings you have are the entire reason religion exists, to fill in the "why" that people couldnt explain back in the day. once you realize that the reason shouldn't be why, but rather, why not, then you can appreciate all the things you do for yourself, instead of thanking an invisible floating guy every time something good happens to you.

 

[MrColin]

Whether you focus on levels of magnitude above or below our little slice of perception, it goes deeper than your little brain can even process. Its nice if you can figure out parts of it to improve your circumstances or invent something cool, but there's no way any of us will get the total picture of things. Even without the limited cognitive power we have, our lives are too short to even try. In Cee-lo's words, "your worries and fears become your friends, and they end up smiling at you. Put on a Smiling face."

 

[-Slacker-]

What textbook says that the universe came from nothing or that "quantum fluctuations" are nothing?

 

[ShawnD1]

Atheism is obviously too much for you, go back to Jesus.

I found my keys when I wasn't even looking for them. HOW DO I MAKE SENSE OF THIS? It's not enough to say I don't know. Obviously, God found them and put them on the oven for me.

What textbook says that the universe came from nothing or that "quantum fluctuations" are nothing?

He might be talking about the bible since the bible literally says this. One day there was nothing, and then God snapped his fingers and there it was. It doesn't hint that he built the universe using parts that were already there, although it might be implied since that's how we build everything else.

 

[Gooberlx2]

"I think, therefore I am". Now go have a beer and stop stressing out over nothing. Not having to stress out about bullshit is one of the best parts of not being religous.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

Have fun and

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[dr150]

Don't worry about it. Some of it will have to wait for the scientists of the future, or the masturbation of philosophers. It means fuck all right now. Don't be a dick. That's all you need to know.

Agreed. Don't be a dick to others.......grade school teachings that everyone tries to forget.

Another one to remember.........don't let your dick run yo' life. ()

 

[IronWing]

The problem with sticking a god into the equation is that if you use just one it has to be a psychotic, schizophrenic killer. Love you all...die...die...die...hugs...rainbows...burning children smell great...butterflies be free. If you can rationalize two or more gods with at least one being a psychopath then everything makes sense again. So either opt for none or more than one.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

"I think, therefore I am".

If thinking is the qualification for existence then 98.6% of ATOT-ers do not exist.

 

[lupi]

just start worrying about those people following you all the time.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Here's the cosmological argument, if it helps. I think it's been pretty well established, by philosophy in Plato's time and by science since the Big Bang theory, that the universe is finite. So there's that.

But that isn't actually true. It is not certain that the universe is finite or infinite. We just don't know.

1. Every finite and contingent being has a cause.

This premise is worded this way specifically to lay the groundwork for special pleading in the case of God. Nevermind the fact that it is simply bare assertion that God is "infinite" and "necessary" (i.e. non-contingent).

Nevermind also that a "finite being" isn't well-defined, nor is causality any strict feature of reality.

2. A causal loop cannot exist.
3. A causal chain cannot be of infinite length.
4. Therefore, a First Cause (or something that is not an effect) must exist.

2 may be false, and 3 is simply a bare assertion, not a statement of fact. It's amusing that the "first cause" suddenly earns the right to be capitalized, though, as though it goes without saying that whatever the first cause might be, it's clearly a magical disembodied consciousness of unlimited powers with motives inscrutable to all but a few (who also, coincidentally, happen to be the argument's proponents).

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

"I think, therefore I am".

Objection! The premise assumes the conclusion!

 

[IronWing]

Gods are exactly what you want them to be, no less and no more.

 

[Gooberlx2]

Objection! The premise assumes the conclusion!

Oh shut up. You're nothing but a figment of my imagination!

 

[JulesMaximus]

obligatory "i don't know therefore aliens"

 

[thejunglegod]

The reason i believe God exists is because there are bicuspid and tricuspid valves in the human body. In short, the detailing and intricateness of the human body.

The reason i believe he does not exist is how the same organics can die the most miserable death like getting crushed under a car, even though HE looks after each and everyone of us. Unanswered questions. Hence agnostic.

 

[moonbogg]

The reason i believe God exists is because there are bicuspid and tricuspid valves in the human body. In short, the detailing and intricateness of the human body.

The reason i believe he does not exist is how the same organics can die the most miserable death like getting crushed under a car, even though HE looks after each and everyone of us. Unanswered questions. Hence agnostic.

The valves thing can be understood from evolutionary biology. The getting crushed thing is totally legit and is pretty solid evidence that we don't matter to anything other than ourselves. However, that does not necessarily prove there is no god all by itself. There could be a god based on that argument. He would just be an asshole god.

 

[thejunglegod]

There could be a god based on that argument. He would just be an asshole god.

Well, yeah. But isn't God supposed to take care of all of us as mentioned in all the holy books. Then how can he/she let family members see the dismembered pieces of their loved ones?
Anyways, i'm going to be agnostic no matter what. I know something is out there, though i refuse to believe it.

 

[OverVolt]

you don't understand how it happened, but it did

there ya go, solved

Lol yup.

I'm more of a... "God is imperfection" type.

If the universe was perfect then nothing interesting would happen. After the big bang, all molecules would be equidistant apart, or congeal into a huge ball, depending on gravity/dark matter. There had to be imperfection. Thus God = imperfection.

It matches what the bible says like "God is in every one of us" meaning... imperfection.

In computers, when you try to make a game like simcity its hard to make it truly random and interesting. You make a little world and the world is exactly as you made it... Yawn... I think that spark/difference is the God factor, eh?

So I find truly random science stuff very interesting. Like trying to find the position of an electron, etc. I don't think it'll ever be possible to crack all those questions, there MUST be some type of random, variable, imperfect fabric to the universe, or else we wouldn't be here.

I think we gotta do things for ourselves, God isn't going to swoop down and helps us, the struggle we all go through is very "imperfect" anyway. It makes sense if we are made in his "image" the world is just going to be imperfect, so you gotta get over it in reference to bus-crushing. But we have a fair shake at shaping our lives the way we want to live them

 

[Kadarin]

Anyways, i'm going to be agnostic no matter what. I know something is out there, though i refuse to believe it.

That's not "agnostic"...

 

[thejunglegod]

That's not "agnostic"..

It is. I do believe in God. However, I cannot prove HE exists or why there are some things that happen, which ideally shouldn't, if there was a GOD.

 

[OverVolt]

If you tried to engineer the universe, you'd do all the usuals.

Quarks, protons, electrons, neutrons, pretty boring, This would go nowhere. The rules and forces are good, gravity, strong nuclear, electric/magnetism, etc. Some of the more abstract ones are critical to life, entropy & enthalpy. For example, the way biological molecules form symmetry (Dna, proteins, etc) is actually favored chemically.

This still would get you nowhere, you need variance, unpredictability, etc. As soon as you determine the way something works, it loses its statistical probability and becomes a deterministic inevitability. I don't think the universe is deterministic, it wouldn't exist without imperfection of some type. The universe on all scales is very imperfect. Its not like we examine the sky and its the same galaxy over and over in different positions. And its not like we can find the position of an electron or figure out if its a wave, or a particle in a deterministic fashion.