(strong) lifters

[zebano]

This is directed to all you lifters out there, particularly anyone who has done stronglifts 5x5 or combines lifting with another sport.

Do you ever feel like 5x5 is too much?

The main reason I ask is because I lift to become strong/quicker/more powerful in basketball and tennis. However nowadays I spend at least 1 hour (usually more) playing either racketball or basketball over lunch. I then work from 12-4, go back to the gym and do my lifts. After 1.5 hours of basketball, I squatted 5x5x205 and not only did I very nearly stall out, I could barely do my overhead press and deadlifts. Two days later (I went light and swam for half an hour yesterday) I've packet my gym bag for basketball but my quads and glutes still hurt from Monday. For reference, I did 5x5x195 last Friday and the soreness wasn't gone until Monday morning.


Some idea's I've had:
1. Cut back to a 3x5 program (what I'm leaning towards)
2. Drop racketball & swimming leaving a MWF basketball and TThSat for lifting (tough since I'm rarely in town on Sat.)
3. Accept that two a days are insane and just lift to maintain strength, not gain it ( one of my goals is to squat 1x5x315 - 3 plates)
4. Switch to a more traditional 4 day lifting split where only 1 part of my body should be tired on a given day (unfortunately this requires more time in the gym).
5. Stop being a pussy and just keep at it.


Some things I won't do:
1. Lift before ball. Lifting is supplemental to the sports I play, not the other way around, I want to be fresh when I ball.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

How long have you been lifting while being involved in those other sports? Usually, people who start out new to a lifting program will be pretty sore, but as you get into a routine of lifting every couple of days, the soreness nearly goes away. Also, why not try lifting before basketball once or twice and see how you feel? Some people don't feel the lifting at all in their aerobic activities while it's the complete opposite for feeling the cardio while lifting. Try it; keep an open mind. See how that works.

 

[Unmoosical]

I'd suggest staying with the lifting for a while longer before you decide to axe it. I've been doing 5x5s for a while now and I play racquetball at least 2 times a week on top of that and usually don't have a problem.

It did take a little bit till I didn't feel it during racquetball but I don't anymore. I played last night and I'm going to the gym in just a few minutes.

I would expect if you keep lifting for a while you won't feel it much anymore. Having said that, listen to your body. If you feel that it's too much, back off. Only 1 time did I overdo it (played racquetball like 4 times during the week on top of the gym) and my knee told me that it didn't want to walk for the next week so I took time off. All good now though.

 

[zebano]

I combined lifting with ball for most of last year, but near the end I fell off the lifting wagon and for much of it I only lifted twice a week. For the past three weeks I've been working back to where I was prior to last thanksgiving. I lifted in the mornings last year and the fatigue was noticeable during sports, but I had a slightly more favorable split.

TTh BBall
MWF lifting, tennis on Mondays/saturdays in the summer, racketball on Fridays in the winter
As you can see there was only one day a week where I did double duty and it worked out decently. My tennis was always impacted by lifting and later in the season so I switched to twice a week lifting which greatly slowed my weight increases.

I'll try lifting Friday morning to see how that goes but I'm not optimistic since my M.O. in basketball is high pressure defense, and a lot of fast break & quick cuts (I've been nicknamed "Taz").

 

[brikis98]

If you are still going up in weight at the 5x5, then don't change anything. If you are stalling out, especially on the squat - that is, ~3 workouts in a row you can't go up in weight, you tried a deload and are still stuck - it's probably because you are overtraining. Get some rest and when you come back, reduce the amount of exercise. Either cut back on the sports, or try to drop down to a 3x5. The Starting Strength Wiki has some relevant comments about doing a 5x5 instead of a 3x5.

 

[conorvansmack]

I woudn't say that 5 x 5 felt like too much for me, but I definitely feel better since I've switched to 3 x 5.

I read the same info that brikis98 referenced in his post. I found that I was doing fine and still making gains on 5 x 5, but the workouts were taking up way too much of my time and squatting 1.5x my bodyweight for 5 sets of 5 was a pretty daunting task. I switched to 3 x 5 and I feel much better about the gains that I'm making. I don't feel that I'm overtraining or training to failure which I often felt on the 5th set of some exercises.

I like the schedule/split of StrongLifts and it's accessory exercises, so I'm sticking with that and I hope to add power cleans soon.

 

[TheVrolok]

I think it may be too much for what your goals are. Starting Strength, and the various 5x5 routines aren't geared toward agility sports like tennis and basketball. You might want to look in a slightly different direction; getting stronger for sports is a great thing but I Think you might want to do it in a way that'll give you more explosiveness/quickness than you'll get from a powerlifting routine.

 

[TallBill]

Originally posted by: TheVrolok
I think it may be too much for what your goals are. Starting Strength, and the various 5x5 routines aren't geared toward agility sports like tennis and basketball. You might want to look in a slightly different direction; getting stronger for sports is a great thing but I Think you might want to do it in a way that'll give you more explosiveness/quickness than you'll get from a powerlifting routine.

I think starting strength will be fine when complemented by plyometrics. Professional athletes do heavy compound lifts, plyometrics, and regular cardio. Crossfit workouts try to combine these into one balled up package, but I'd prefer to keep them separate.

 

[zebano]

Originally posted by: TheVrolok
I think it may be too much for what your goals are. Starting Strength, and the various 5x5 routines aren't geared toward agility sports like tennis and basketball. You might want to look in a slightly different direction; getting stronger for sports is a great thing but I Think you might want to do it in a way that'll give you more explosiveness/quickness than you'll get from a powerlifting routine.

While it never hurts to get better, I am quicker than all but one of the 15 or so people I play ball with. I could stand to be faster around the tennis court, but I've found my problem is more a lack of anticipation which goes away as the season progresses (most people I know play year round). I however am clearly on the weaker end of the spectrum. When I started lifting last year I noticed two things:
a. I basketball I was more successful at fighting for rebounds (boxing out or fighting through a boxout), I believe this is due to the heavy squatting.
b. In tennis I had switched to a heavier racket which was excellent the first set or two, but got heavy latter in matches/tournaments. Lifting (in particular the overhead press I believe) made this problem disappear.


Regarding more explosive/plyometric training, I have absolutely no experience there, do you have any suggestions? I'm not sure how I would fit it into my schedule, but a more complete training regimen is always worthwhile. Stronglifts was chosen for my strength training because people here recommended it and it seems to be well thought out and works the whole body. Combined with a little bit of running or swimming I have a good weight loss/physical fitness program.

I played ball today and my quads feel much better afterwords than they did beforehand. Maybe I just needed to work the lactic acid out, I'll see how the lifting goes tonight.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: TallBill

Originally posted by: TheVrolok
I think it may be too much for what your goals are. Starting Strength, and the various 5x5 routines aren't geared toward agility sports like tennis and basketball. You might want to look in a slightly different direction; getting stronger for sports is a great thing but I Think you might want to do it in a way that'll give you more explosiveness/quickness than you'll get from a powerlifting routine.

I think starting strength will be fine when complemented by plyometrics. Professional athletes do heavy compound lifts, plyometrics, and regular cardio. Crossfit workouts try to combine these into one balled up package, but I'd prefer to keep them separate.

Both strength ("the ability of a muscular unit, or combination of muscular units, to apply force") and power ("the ability of a muscular unit, or combination of muscular units, to apply maximum force in minimum time") play important roles in sports performance. Stronglifts 5x5, including only "slow" lifts (squat, deadlift, bench, OH press, etc), primarily develops strength. Starting Strength is also primarily biased towards strength (as the name implies), but it includes the power clean, which is an exceptional way to build power.

Of course, strength and power aren't the only things you can train to improve your performance. Crossfit includes exercises that develop all "10 components of fitness": cardiovascular/respiratory endurance, stamina, strength, flexibility, power, speed, agility, balance, coordination, and accuracy. The exercises include "slow lifts", olympic lifts, running, rowing, gymnastics and a whole lot more.

 

[TallBill]

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: TallBill

Originally posted by: TheVrolok
I think it may be too much for what your goals are. Starting Strength, and the various 5x5 routines aren't geared toward agility sports like tennis and basketball. You might want to look in a slightly different direction; getting stronger for sports is a great thing but I Think you might want to do it in a way that'll give you more explosiveness/quickness than you'll get from a powerlifting routine.

I think starting strength will be fine when complemented by plyometrics. Professional athletes do heavy compound lifts, plyometrics, and regular cardio. Crossfit workouts try to combine these into one balled up package, but I'd prefer to keep them separate.

Both strength ("the ability of a muscular unit, or combination of muscular units, to apply force") and power ("the ability of a muscular unit, or combination of muscular units, to apply maximum force in minimum time") play important roles in sports performance. Stronglifts 5x5, including only "slow" lifts (squat, deadlift, bench, OH press, etc), primarily develops strength. Starting Strength is also primarily biased towards strength (as the name implies), but it includes the power clean, which is an exceptional way to build power.

Of course, strength and power aren't the only things you can train to improve your performance. Crossfit includes exercises that develop all "10 components of fitness": cardiovascular/respiratory endurance, stamina, strength, flexibility, power, speed, agility, balance, coordination, and accuracy. The exercises include "slow lifts", olympic lifts, running, rowing, gymnastics and a whole lot more.

Meh, there are a bazillion versions of crossfit. Even yours deviates from the real one, because it's also a self defense tool. No doubt you copy/pasted that blurb from somewhere.

Not saying that crossfit workouts are not amazing, but its not the end all/be all. Besides, I'd prefer to work out on my own, and already have a $30/month gym membership.

But adding in some different forms of cardio and plyometrics is EASY for anyone to do. No equipment really needed and they compliment "slow lifts" quite nicely.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: TallBill
Meh, there are a bazillion versions of crossfit. Even yours deviates from the real one, because it's also a self defense tool.

Crossfit can be tweaked to individual needs and scaled to individual ability. If anything, this is a benefit. However, the basic principles of Crossfit remain the same: functional movements, constantly varied, done at high intensity.

Originally posted by: TallBill
No doubt you copy/pasted that blurb from somewhere.

Yup, from the Crossfit Journal. It's an awesome resource whether you're doing CF or not. They have some free articles for sampling, but it's well worth the $25/year to see it all.

Originally posted by: TallBill
Not saying that crossfit workouts are not amazing, but its not the end all/be all. Besides, I'd prefer to work out on my own, and already have a $30/month gym membership.

Hey, to each their own. It is worth mentioning, however, that you don't have to go to a Crossfit gym to do Crossfit. I did CF for a long time at a standard $26/month gym near my house and it worked just fine. And while I absolutely love CF, if you're going to do it on your own (ie, w/o professional instruction), I'd actually recommend total newbies to start with Starting Strength first. Not only will SS help a beginner become build a strength base, but it will also make them proficient at all the basic movements (squat, deadlift, OH press, etc). Once these basic movements are solidified, the more complicated ones in CF - such as C&J, snatch, thruster, muscle-up, etc - are much easier and safer to learn.

Originally posted by: TallBill
But adding in some different forms of cardio and plyometrics is EASY for anyone to do. No equipment really needed and they compliment "slow lifts" quite nicely.

This is basically what I used to do: a Starting Strength style routine, with some cardio (primarily running) & sports on the side. I can say this unequivocally: the difference between this and a Crossfit routine are night and day. The way that Crossfit combines all the aspects of fitness into workouts is what makes it so much more effective than doing each of those separately. The whole is, without question, greater than the sum of the parts. To quote the CF journal again, you should "strive to blur distinctions between cardio and strength training. Nature has no regard for this distinction."

 

[brikis98]

For those who are interested, I highly recommend reading the What is Fitness? article in the CF Journal. It's one of their free issues and lays out some of the basic concepts and philosophies of CF.

 

[zebano]

Well I went and lifted adding only 5 lbs to the squat, but everything felt much much better today. Maybe I was overly tired, maybe it was the larger portion of food I ate in between my two workouts, or maybe bench is much easier than overhead press but today was simply a massive difference from Monday. Tomorrow is a jogging day.