"Strict Constructionists" EDIT the Constitution before reading it.

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silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
27,703
12
81
Someone please tell me WTF is the point of not reading reading the document out loud in its entirety if the whole point of reading it out loud is to bring the government back to its roots?

You Americans tout this piece of paper like its some kind of holy grail that is the end-all-be-all document of the land, yet seem to forget that it has been deemed to be in error several times, is a living document, and has had some pretty bad stuff in it in the past.
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
Yes, it is. Because there is a process called the AMENDMENT PROCESS which dictates a way to change the Constitution.

Original meaning can be changed by amendments. This is perfectly legal and acceptable.

What is NOT perfectly legal and acceptable are overly broad interpretations of parts of the document used to justify passing any law desired. What is also NOT perfectly legal and acceptable is interpreting parts of the constitution in a manner that is not consistent with what is written.

The Second Amendment, for instance. You cannot pass a law banning guns just because you think that the Second Amendment is outdated. In order to do that, you must pass an amendment repealing the second amendment. Once you do that, the Second Amendment becomes irrelevant to current law and interpretation.

Not sure why this is hard for you to grasp. There is no doublespeak involved. (Although I am sure that most politicians don't give a shit what the Constitution actually says or means.)

I'd have to disagree with that. As diehard as I am for the Constitution, it's the principles that it established that matter, not what is written on paper by man.

An amendment repealing the second amendment just means 51 out of 100 people don't like guns, it doesn't mean I magically don't have a natural right to arm myself in defense or that I am going give them up, or that it is ok for those 51 people to murder me to take them from me.

Likewise repealing the 13th Amendment doesn't suddenly make slavery ok again just because 2/3rds of the states say it is. (PS the founders knew they were hypocritical with slavery, but at the time it was socially ingrained and a required compromise, much like politicians today do things that aren't right in order to compromise and get something they want)

Why stop there, convince 2/3rds of the public that the Constitution is stupid then create an amendment that repeals the entire Constitution! Take away everybody's rights, it's legit as long as there is an amendment, isn't that right?

Thomas Jefferson himself knew that slavery was wrong and he also said that democracy is just 51% of people taking rights away from the other 49%. In fact all the founders loathed the idea of democracy for this very reason; all it is, is a legal justification for a bigger group of people to bully a smaller group of people... but hey we'll take it, it's the next best thing from anarchy without government at all.

My point being is that those who wrote the Constitution spoke of inalienable natural rights that a person has that aren't granted by law, government, or piece of paper, and the Constitution itself is no exception.

Also, the Constitution does not define the rights of the people, as above, those rights are implied, natural or divine or whatever, they are not granted or taken by any law, government, or document, and they do not need to be enumerated in document. The Constitution itself is a limit on government designed to protect those rights. Amendments which deprive of rights is diametrically opposed to the sole purpose of the Constitution in limiting or delaying a governments ability to take away natural rights.

Prohibition is a perfect example. Religious nuts took control of the majority and abused their power to control the minority at the time. Of course the amendment didn't matter, the people said FUCK YOU loud and clear, and prohibition had to be lifted in another amendment as a formality.

I know I'm going to confuse a lot of people, I am a hard core Constitutionalist and admirer of the founding fathers and I know I just said the Consitution doesn't matter... wait what? Well it does and it doesn't, it's the established principles that matter. Not what some men scribbled down on some paper and fight over altering to their own ends to this day; that is completely missing the point.
 
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bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
I am quite serious. You want to explore what made our Constitution what it is today - then you face everything that went into it...

Except the stuff that is no longer valid due to later amendment. It doesn't matter any more because we amended it.
 

UberNeuman

Lifer
Nov 4, 1999
16,937
3,087
126
Except the stuff that is no longer valid due to later amendment. It doesn't matter any more because we amended it.

Is there a problem with facing our history? Seeing how far we've come as a nation makes it that much stronger....
 
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bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
I'd have to disagree with that. As diehard as I am for the Constitution, it's the principles that it established that matter, not what is written on paper by man.

An amendment repealing the second amendment just means 51 out of 100 people don't like guns, it doesn't mean I magically don't have a natural right to arm myself in defense or that I am going give them up, or that it is ok for those 51 people to murder me to take them from me.

Likewise repealing the 13th Amendment doesn't suddenly make slavery ok again just because 2/3rds of the states say it is. (PS the founders knew they were hypocritical with slavery, but at the time it was socially ingrained and a required compromise, much like politicians today do things that aren't right in order to compromise and get something they want)

Why stop there, convince 2/3rds of the public that the Constitution is stupid then create an amendment that repeals the entire Constitution! Take away everybody's rights, it's legit as long as there is an amendment, isn't that right?

Thomas Jefferson himself knew that slavery was wrong and he also said that democracy is just 51% of people taking rights away from the other 49%.

My point being is that those who wrote the Constitution spoke of inalienable natural rights that a person has that aren't granted by law, government, or piece of paper, and the Constitution itself is no exception.

Also, the Constitution does not define the rights of the people, as above, those rights are implied, natural or divine or whatever, they are not granted or taken by any law, government, or document, and they do not need to be enumerated in document. The Constitution itself is a limit on government designed to protect those rights.

DERP DA DERP are you kidding me? 51 Senators voting over 49 Senators is democracy to you? Jesus fuck our school system has failed us! Democracy, in the form Thomas Jefferson used it, is referring to a Direct Democracy. We do not have a Direct Democracy, we have a Republic. These are different things.
 

UberNeuman

Lifer
Nov 4, 1999
16,937
3,087
126
No there isn't, that is why we amended that previous crap.

It didn't happen without pain and suffering - lives lost that shouldn't have been lost.... It's our history - so why not discuss it?

/everything or nothing.....
 
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bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
It didn't happen without pain and suffering - lives lost that shouldn't have been lost.... It's our history.

Those words have nothing to do with that history. They are just words that dictated how at a time things were ran in some shape or form here. They have now been rectified. You do not need those words to reference the history that happened during that time. Have you ever heard of a library? In Washington D.C. they have some HUGE fucking libraries full of all that shit in books those individuals can get information from. Or hell we have this HUGE fucking infestation of information on the internet. You know the thing were on right now having this discussion, where they can research what happened in history. They do not need those words in a reading of the constitution.


troll or idiot, if I was you I'd pick troll.
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
DERP DA DERP are you kidding me? 51 Senators voting over 49 Senators is democracy to you? Jesus fuck our school system has failed us! Democracy, in the form Thomas Jefferson used it, is referring to a Direct Democracy. We do not have a Direct Democracy, we have a Republic. These are different things.

Same difference, you choose to ignore principles to nit pick semantics.

Point is any form of government by the people is all about convincing a group of people to believe A so that group A is bigger than group B so they can tell group B what to do. So much for the republic, look how much shit gets pushed down our throats in a hurry when a party has majority? This problem has no solution, and is the single biggest issue that the founders wrestled with and still couldn't solve. Requirements for voting from wealth, to education level, to property ownership, etc, etc, etc, all were debated to prevent retarded or selfish or short sighted people, parties, and their representatives, from obtaining and abusing majorities to trample minorities, but alas these sorts of hypocritical ideas were no different from the arbitrary monarchies and dictatorships they were trying to set apart from.

The founders deliberately framed our representative government model in the Constitution to avoid that from happening, or even to delay the inevitable as long as possible. But it's still not infallible enough to prevent it from ever keeping the majority from tyrannizing the minority, especially when majorities do their best to do things in a way that makes it next to impossible for future majorities to undo (machine gun ban, social security, obamacare, Patriot Act, TSA, ATF, IRS, etc).

In fact, the founders were so of skeptical of their work in the Constitution, and that Constitution's ability to keep majorities from tyrannizing minorities anyway, that they still wouldn't pass it without a Bill of Rights enumerating some basic rights and protections that should never have even needed be enumerated in the first place.
 
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UberNeuman

Lifer
Nov 4, 1999
16,937
3,087
126
Those words have nothing to do with that history. They are just words that dictated how at a time things were ran in some shape or form here. They have now been rectified. You do not need those words to reference the history that happened during that time. Have you ever heard of a library? In Washington D.C. they have some HUGE fucking libraries full of all that shit in books those individuals can get information from. Or hell we have this HUGE fucking infestation of information on the internet. You know the thing were on right now having this discussion, where they can research what happened in history. They do not need those words in a reading of the constitution.


troll or idiot, if I was you I'd pick troll.

I'm sorry that you're unwilling/fearing to face the history that made our country what it is today...

call me troll or idiot, if it makes you feel better..

History is that - beyond you or I. Casting an eye away from it doesn't make it go away.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
Same difference, you choose to ignore principles to nit pick semantics.

Point is any form of government by the people is all about convincing a group of people to believe A so that group A is bigger than group B so they can tell group B what to do. So much for the republic, look how much shit gets pushed down our throats in a hurry when a party has majority? This problem has no solution, and is the single biggest issue that the founders wrestled with and still couldn't solve. Requirements for voting from wealth, to education level, to property ownership, etc, etc, etc, all were debated to prevent retarded or selfish or short sighted people, parties, and their representatives, from obtaining and abusing majorities to trample minorities, but alas these sorts of hypocritical ideas were no different from the arbitrary monarchies and dictatorships they were trying to set apart from.

The founders deliberately framed our representative government model in the Constitution to avoid that from happening, or even to delay the inevitable as long as possible. But it's still not infallible enough to prevent it from ever keeping the majority from tyrannizing the minority, especially when majorities do their best to do things in a way that makes it next to impossible for future majorities to undo (machine gun ban, social security, obamacare, Patriot Act, TSA, ATF, IRS, etc).

you choose to be an idiot and use a different definition of democracy than Thomas Jefferson used. That is where your whole misconception of this comes from. When they talked about democracy back then they were talking about direct democracy as a form of government. In fact back in those times to call another a democrat was like calling someone a commie today.
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
you choose to be an idiot and use a different definition of democracy than Thomas Jefferson used. That is where your whole misconception of this comes from. When they talked about democracy back then they were talking about direct democracy as a form of government.

You can't help being an idiot, if you think you are being clever by ignoring everything else and vesting all your rebuttal energy into the semantics of one thing in my entire post, or think that it's going to change the underlying message and principle of my post. Not once, but twice.

It was not just direct democracy, it was any form of government controlled by the people. The fundamental conflict that the entire founding of this nation and development of the Constitution revolved around is that: you need to keep people from abusing the government, but any protections limiting people's power to affect the government is counter productive to the development of said government by the people in the first place. Direct democracy, republic, it doesn't matter. How can you have a government that is run by the people, in ANY form, but not allow the people to run the government (because the majority will abuse it and take power from the minority). The answer is people CAN'T govern themselves, but any attempt is still better than the alternatives.

In fact back in those times to call another a democrat was like calling someone a commie today.
Why am I not surprised?
 
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matt0611

Golden Member
Oct 22, 2010
1,879
0
0
Someone please tell me WTF is the point of not reading reading the document out loud in its entirety if the whole point of reading it out loud is to bring the government back to its roots?

You Americans tout this piece of paper like its some kind of holy grail that is the end-all-be-all document of the land, yet seem to forget that it has been deemed to be in error several times, is a living document, and has had some pretty bad stuff in it in the past.

Because the parts that are not being read do not matter much at all to the law writing process because they are no longer in effect, they matter for historical reasons only. Its not a history class, its a public reading of the constitution. Why is this so hard to understand?

The constitution is a living document only as far as it can be amended.

Its not a perfect document, but its the best we have (and in my opinion, the best in the world) the founders never said it was perfect, that's why it has a built in amendment process. No one has forgotten anything.
 
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Triumph

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,031
14
81
Someone please tell me WTF is the point of not reading reading the document out loud in its entirety if the whole point of reading it out loud is to bring the government back to its roots?

Why is this so hard to understand? Why should they read parts that were nullified by the Constitution's own established means? The 18thA started prohibition. The 21stA repealed it. So why read the 18thA when it was removed? When you get hold of a written report at work, do you demand to have all of the revisions, edits, markups, and track changes? You don't if it's a final product.

You Americans tout this piece of paper like its some kind of holy grail that is the end-all-be-all document of the land, yet seem to forget that it has been deemed to be in error several times, is a living document, and has had some pretty bad stuff in it in the past.

You must be confusing things the COUNTRY has done in the past, with things that you imagine were in the constitution in the past. I can't think of any really bad things in the Constitution.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,839
2,625
136
Personally I thought Jon Stewart had the best spin on this dog and pony show on last night's Daily Show-his summary: bad community theater.

Every other station seemed to most prominently feature that birther wackjob.
 

AyashiKaibutsu

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2004
9,306
4
81
Someone please tell me WTF is the point of not reading reading the document out loud in its entirety if the whole point of reading it out loud is to bring the government back to its roots?

You Americans tout this piece of paper like its some kind of holy grail that is the end-all-be-all document of the land, yet seem to forget that it has been deemed to be in error several times, is a living document, and has had some pretty bad stuff in it in the past.

Valid point, but the thread overall is still pretty dumb. It's pretty reasonable to read it as it is now. Now, if they wanted to change some of the stuff that still is valid today that would be a whole different game.
 

nonlnear

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2008
2,497
0
76
Valid point, but the thread overall is still pretty dumb. It's pretty reasonable to read it as it is now. Now, if they wanted to change some of the stuff that still is valid today that would be a whole different game.

It really isn't a valid point though. If the purpose of reading it is to make a dramatic point about the Constitution being the supreme law of the land (the merits of such meaningless gestures notwithstanding), then it's not unreasonable to only read those parts that carry the force of law (and thus are, in fact, the supreme law of the land).

This entire thread is a monument to senseamp's stupidity. Ironically, senseamp truly believes that the point made in the OP serves to illustrate the superiority of his intelligence over certain folks who rabidly post equally mindless threads from a different perspective when it quite clearly makes him their peer.
 

Scotteq

Diamond Member
Apr 10, 2008
5,276
5
0
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/06/AR2011010602807.html

The chamber's Republican leaders - who organized the first-of-its-kind event - had touted the reading as a way to bring the country back to its political roots. But they didn't want to go all the way back: Rep. Robert W. Goodlatte (R-Va.), who was running the procedure, said lawmakers would read a Constitution that had been edited to remove sections negated by later amendments.

"Those portions superseded by amendment will not be read," Goodlatte said. He said he had consulted the Congressional Research Service, among others, in choosing this version of the document.

Those changes meant the erasure of the 18th Amendment, for instance, which created Prohibition (it was later repealed by the 21st Amendment). It also meant that legislators would not read the original language from Article 1 that tacitly acknowledged slavery.

That language, called the "three-fifths compromise," stated that representatives would be parceled out based on a count of all free inhabitants, excluding Indians, and "three-fifths of all other persons." Those persons were understood to be slaves.


Can't make this stuff up. I guess original intent not good enough for the tea-bagging crew.




Isn't it obvious??


It's because in Senseamp's mind, Prohibition is still relevant, African Americans really are worth 3/5ths of a White person, and Native Americans aren't really people at all, Amirite?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Someone please tell me WTF is the point of not reading reading the document out loud in its entirety if the whole point of reading it out loud is to bring the government back to its roots?

First, the point is not to 'bring the government back to its roots'.

It is propaganda, political gamesmanship, that they are pushing the idea that the government is NOT 'back to its roots' of the constitution under Democrats. Not true.

They wrap themselves in the word 'constitution' to play on ignorant people's patriotism, and give themselves cover to do bad things by hiding behind it.

You always find demagogues who want to do bad things fervently praising something 'good' and insisting he'll protect the good thing and the people from some 'harm'.

Hitler is a classic example, with his idea that the Aryan people were the best race and mankind would benefit by their taking more power. His message didn't sell well to all Germans - many of whom saw him as dangerous - but it did with enough to allow his faction to grab power and create an environment where to oppose him was very dangerous, and that was enough (one of the lessons for us to learn from). Many other demagogues have risen to power similarly.

Some of our very corrupt leaders have been the ones to most strongly wrap themselves in the flag, the constitution, anything usable like that for their own power (even religious overtones, and this includes George Bush) while they have implied that those who disagree with them are dangerous and hype the fear and opposition, and often demonize them.

There is a natural human tendency to like to feel like you are on the side of something right while fighting evil that can be exploited such that you are the one doing evil.

Think about Vietnam for a moment - our nation killing 2 million Vietnamese peasants for what turned out to be uninformed and largely wrong reasons but feeling so good about the war, about people risking their lives to go fight the 'evil' of the communist menace - but really doing little more than being an army of mass murder, despite the good intentions, that were misguided.

Many nations have these examples - Russia with its neighbors it hurt, Indonesia with East Timoor, England with its empire, Japan with China and others, and many more.

Anyway, to the point, it's the same technique here - Republicans understand their 'top priority' of getting income over $250K a lower tax rate is corrupt and won't sell all that well to a lot of the public, especially at a time of economic downturn, so politically, rather than the image that's more accurate of their being sellouts to the rich class, they'd like the voters who fall for it to view them as 'protecting the constitution' - and that needs them making these accusations the constitution is under attack from Dems.

So the point of their ceremony was NOT to 'return to the roots of the constitution'; rather, that's a propaganda bit of demagoguery to get political support.

But as to your question, if you take their propaganda at face value, it makes good sense to 'return to the roots' of the constitution - the one that's in effect now.

Should they read the English laws, too, that were part of our history before the constitution? The story they're selling is 'follow the constitution' - but the one in power now, not the amended things. It's not a history exercise, but rather saying 'this is the constitution today', as if the last Congress did not know what it said. It's pure dishonest, cynical propaganda for a harmful agenda, to fool people and demagogue.

You Americans tout this piece of paper like its some kind of holy grail that is the end-all-be-all document of the land, yet seem to forget that it has been deemed to be in error several times, is a living document, and has had some pretty bad stuff in it in the past.

When the Caesars took power, Rome had a long tradition of respecting 'the people' and its 'democracy' or at least Senate and not having a dictator. These people seizing power (hence the name seizer, bet you didn't hear that in class) look how careful they were to say they were not doing so and acting under the Senate - even as they turned the Senate into nothing more than a body of their appointed lackies to rubber stamp their policies, but keep the lie that the country had a 'democracy'.

The constitution has a similar purpose, to sens a message that the US does not have a dictator, but it run by 'a democracy'. That appeals to people, naturally.

They tout it so much because they're saying we don't have a Stalin or a Mao, we have a man who is subservient to the people.

They are saying 'notice how we broke free of oppressive power and put the people in power instead' - even if they don't notice so much when we are the new 'England'.

Part of it is just nationalism, too. But there is a basic idea there of the constitution protecting basic rights of people from the government intended to serve them.

They praise that just as the Romans once praised their Senate and as the people of communist countries once praised the lack of 'robber barons' exploiting them that their system offered - even if they did not much like the government. Funny enough, the communist leaders used the same techniques I describe above, except they replaced the 'Democrats' being demonized with 'Imperialist westerners', and so on.

Communist citizens had to deal with communist corruption; we have to deal with corporatist corruption.

Americans will admit your points that the constitution isn't free of bad things, and so on. It's the role it has in protecting rights they are pleased with.

And it's sad to see it used to dishonestly for crass politics by a corrupt group of Republican Congressmen who dirty it with their propaganda.

Just as the Roman Senate was dirtied by the Caesars who used it for propaganda.

Save234
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
The root of the the creation of this thread is anxiety over the Republicans taking control of the House. Nothing more, nothing less.

Both parties participated in the reading. I applaud them both for taking a small first step towards working together.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
You can't help being an idiot, if you think you are being clever by ignoring everything else and vesting all your rebuttal energy into the semantics of one thing in my entire post, or think that it's going to change the underlying message and principle of my post. Not once, but twice.

It was not just direct democracy, it was any form of government controlled by the people. The fundamental conflict that the entire founding of this nation and development of the Constitution revolved around is that: you need to keep people from abusing the government, but any protections limiting people's power to affect the government is counter productive to the development of said government by the people in the first place. Direct democracy, republic, it doesn't matter. How can you have a government that is run by the people, in ANY form, but not allow the people to run the government (because the majority will abuse it and take power from the minority). The answer is people CAN'T govern themselves, but any attempt is still better than the alternatives.

Why am I not surprised?

Sorry he very much was referring to Direct Democracy. I have told others and I will tell you, stop viewing yesterdays world with todays eyes. When The Founding Fathers talked about Democracy they were specifically talking about Direct Democracy. Just because you don't know that, doesn't make it un true. Seriously you are a fucking idiot, like one of the biggest fucking idiots I have ever had the displeasure of arguing with on these forums.

Do a little fucking research into the history of our nation and our founding fathers. You might learn something.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
The root of the the creation of this thread is anxiety over the Republicans taking control of the House. Nothing more, nothing less.

Both parties participated in the reading. I applaud them both for taking a small first step towards working together.

You mean avoiding work together? I applaud the GOP for spending time reading instead of legislating. The less legislating they do, the better off the country will be. They should read the Bible next.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,405
8,585
126
Someone please tell me WTF is the point of not reading reading the document out loud in its entirety if the whole point of reading it out loud is to bring the government back to its roots?

You Americans tout this piece of paper like its some kind of holy grail that is the end-all-be-all document of the land, yet seem to forget that it has been deemed to be in error several times, is a living document, and has had some pretty bad stuff in it in the past.

the stuff in error that wasn't read is stuff that was amended through the proper amendment process. for an originalist, that's the only proper way of changing the meaning of the constitution. they would say the document means what it means and the only way to change that meaning is through the formal amendment process, not through deciding that words mean something else in light of later usage or modern problems.

one has to wonder if the constitution would have more amendments were the Court not willing to edit/alter/move along the meaning of various provisions so readily.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,405
8,585
126
When the Caesars took power, Rome had a long tradition of respecting 'the people' and its 'democracy' or at least Senate and not having a dictator. These people seizing power (hence the name seizer, bet you didn't hear that in class) look how careful they were to say they were not doing so and acting under the Senate - even as they turned the Senate into nothing more than a body of their appointed lackies to rubber stamp their policies, but keep the lie that the country had a 'democracy'.

'seize' came from an old high german word meaning 'to sit' so i don't think that is right. further, the 'c' in ceasar was not pronounced the same way then as it is now, having more of a g sound. kaiser is actually closer to the original latin pronunciation. same reason some translations of the odyssey use 'kirke' rather than 'circe.'
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,486
20,016
146
When the Caesars took power, Rome had a long tradition of respecting 'the people' and its 'democracy' or at least Senate and not having a dictator. These people seizing power (hence the name seizer, bet you didn't hear that in class)

O... M... F... G...

Seriously???

Do you just randomly pull this bullshit out of your ass, or did someone actually commit educational malpractice and teach you this shit???

I'm gonna go with the former.