Stream/Pond eroding land barrier

[[DHT]Osiris]

Alright, so I've got an old wishlisted project and some teenage help showing up this summer so I'm interested in tackling a problem we have with an eroding stream/pond barrier, but I only have what I suspect to be bad ideas to remediate. I'd be interested if anyone else did something like this, and what they did/what they would have done differently.

It isn't usually this bad, but we've had a ton of snow melt so everything's a little more elevated than usual. It can get this bad after any individual rain storm though. Both the pond and the stream drain at roughly the same elevation back at the backside, with plenty of distance down that direction (it's a little ~10' dropoff).

I feel like I'd like to dredge out some of the dirt from the stream bed, preferably further back, and add it to the land bridge, add even more dirt to the land bridge (get it maybe 12" off the current elevation all the way back), and possibly get some rock fill to shore up each side (since I suspect it'll just erode again in a few years), both on the pond and stream side, to keep the areas separate. Would that make sense or is the space too small to realistically consider that?

For reference, this was mid-summer in 2018. Mind you the water level was much lower at that time but the erosion is quite clear.


A few more pics, if it matters.

 

[IronWing]

Does the stream ever flood to the point of overtopping the berm with moving water?
How old is the pond? Do you know when it was last dredged, if ever?
Where the stream and pond meet, is the elevation of the pond surface above stream surface elevation? Can the stream backflow into pond at the outlet?

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Does the stream ever flood to the point of overtopping the berm with moving water?
How old is the pond? Do you know when it was last dredged, if ever?
Where the stream and pond meet, is the elevation of the pond surface above stream surface elevation? Can the stream backflow into pond at the outlet?

If it's really bad, like a large amount of snow bookended by warmth, or just a load of rain, it can kind of turn the whole thing into a marsh. I'd say that with enough water, yes it'll overflow in the direction to the point of overtopping the berm entirely. The other side of the stream bed is much higher (10'+ heading up to the house). The dropoff for the pond is low enough that it just kind of turns into a marshy area when it's that bad. There is a pass-through under the barrier that is the appropriate path for water to flow, and I don't believe it's blocked (even when it's dry, the pond gets refilled by the stream). It might need to be rooted out but I don't think that specifically would fix the problem. I'd say the elevation is close to the same between the stream and the pond, but the barrier is also almost the same elevation. It's almost never dry, just dry enough to walk on during the summer/winter.

The stream cannot backflow into the pond, they have separate dropoffs that join further downstream. They do join in the aforementioned pipe under the barrier though.

 

[WilliamM2]

Where I live, altering a stream or wetlands requires permits, and getting the army corp. of engineers involved.

It's illegal to mess with wetlands, even on your own property.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Where I live, altering a stream or wetlands requires permits, and getting the army corp. of engineers involved.

It's illegal to mess with wetlands, even on your own property.

Not trying to alter it, to just keep it from altering itself further and restore it to where it was when we got the property.

 

[WilliamM2]

Not trying to alter it, to just keep it from altering itself further and restore it to where it was when we got the property.

Dredging it IS altering it. It's natural for any stream to change it's course over time.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Dredging it IS altering it. It's natural for any stream to change it's course over time.

It may not be required for me to dredge it, hence my questions. If a pile of rocks and a few cubic yards of fill is all I need to keep this barrier good for a few decades, I don't care about dredging.

 

[WilliamM2]

Filliing it in is also altering it. You will have to check with local authorities.

My family has a cottage on a lake, we used to pile large rocks on the shoreline to stop erosion. It's no longer allowed, what we have there is grandfathered in though.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Filliing it in is also altering it. You will have to check with local authorities.

My family has a cottage on a lake, we used to pile large rocks on the shoreline to stop erosion. It's no longer allowed, what we have there is grandfathered in though.

Where does the border of the 'wetlands' lie? If it's a stream that becomes a swamp due to a lack of barrier, is the swamp entirely wetlands now? Is it altering the wetlands by preventing the wetlands from forming in the first place?

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Based on NYS regulations, it looks like our little area doesn't qualify as a wetland, unless I'm misreading it.

Freshwater Wetlands Program

Wetlands are valuable areas to the people and environment of New York State, known by many names, such as marshes, swamps, bogs, and wet meadows.

www.dec.ny.gov

To be protected under the Freshwater Wetlands Act, a wetland must be 12.4 acres (5 hectares or larger). Wetlands smaller than this may be protected if they are considered of unusual local importance. Around every wetland is an 'adjacent area' of 100 feet that is also regulated to provide protection for the wetland.

 

[WilliamM2]

Where does the border of the 'wetlands' lie? If it's a stream that becomes a swamp due to a lack of barrier, is the swamp entirely wetlands now? Is it altering the wetlands by preventing the wetlands from forming in the first place?

You would have to ask local authorities. Here. you can't do/build anything without special permits if it's within 500 feet of a lake , stream, or river. I have not dealt with a swamp area. but I have read of people geting fined for filling wetlands. The last one I read about was $100,000.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

You would have to ask local authorities. Here. you can't do/build anything without special permits if it's within 500 feet of a lake , stream, or river. I have not dealt with a swamp area. but I have read of people geting fined for filling wetlands. The last one I read about was $100,000.

Sounds fun. So if, hypothetically, it was either permitted due to being too small, or I got an actual permit, what would be the appropriate way to remediate this?

 

[IronWing]

I would ask the Corps of Engineers prior to doing anything. You would likely be covered by a nationwide permit for rebuilding the berm as long as you didn't dredge the stream or pond to get the material and don't place fill in the stream or pond. If your proposed activity qualifies under a nationwide permit, things are easy peazy.

Here's a map showing which office would cover your area.

Locations

 

[BoomerD]

Dredging it IS altering it. It's natural for any stream to change it's course over time.

A good friend had a farm near Shelton, WA with a fork of a small river running through it. That river flooded his place almost every year. He took matters into his own hands and dredged a channel in the river. The Corps of Engineers found out and fined him so heavily, he had to sell the farm to pay the fines.

 

[Micrornd]

I've had to deal with the Corp on several projects, definitely talk to the Corp first, Those folks don't play and they really like to throw their weight around (at least in the Jacksonville District).

Had a friend move down from NY in the early '70s and bought an older established marina on the river, and decided two of the floating docks needed their deck boards replaced with cypress boards, nothing touching the water, no new construction, just replacement of existing boards with identical size, but NEW boards.
Natural cypress, no chemicals like the PT boards being replaced. (Yes, back then cypress was twice the cost of PT here, but lasted 4x-5x longer, the framework of the floaters and the pilings were already cypress, so it just made sense)
Corp slapped a fine on him and ordered the new boards removed (but also noted he MIGHT be able to put new boards on (not the new ones he would have to take off, but new, new boards) IF he qualified for a permit, AFTER he paid the cost of the permit, fine, and assorted fees and BS)
He spent 3 months waiting for a court date and 2 weeks in federal court fighting it and lost. I don't know his legal fees, but the final fine was just a little over 12K, but he was able to leave the replacement boards on the decks.
Oh, and the marina was not allowed to use the floating docks from the time the Corp issued the violation until after the court's decision (roughly 4 1/2 months), so that revenue was lost too.

With all this recent talk of weaponizing government agencies, most folks have no idea how long it's been going on.

 

[skyking]

I'm confused. Does it flow from the pond on the right to the channel on the left, or the other way around?

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Technically the creek is the fill for the pond (aside from rain and drain-off). It has a much lower depth and they release to the same location.

 

[lxskllr]

Why is it undesirable to have a swampy area? Easiest thing is plant some bald cypress(super cool trees), let the water do it's thing, and work around it. Is that path the only access from one end to the other?

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Why is it undesirable to have a swampy area? Easiest thing is plant some bald cypress(super cool trees), let the water do it's thing, and work around it. Is that path the only access from one end to the other?

It's the only access (ends in a dropoff). I'm personally not opposed to letting it swamp up, or getting something like cypress in there. MIL (who lives with us ) is a botanist/entomologist and loves the access through that area though, and eventually it will become impassible.

 

[lxskllr]

I think I'm probably better at this stuff when I can look at it in person, but I like your proposed idea aside from dredging the stream. I'd be reluctant to dick around with an existing ecosystem. I'd bring in material to build up the dam, add /some/ stone, and use vegetation to help stabilize the banks. Armored banks look like ass. They look like something on the side of a highway. A few large rocks, stick bundles, trees, and shrubs would help keep things in place, and better simulate a natural environment.

 

[skyking]

I have done this kind of work before.
What I see is an outfall problem that lets the high water build up. If all the pipes and drainage paths are clear, that would not happen.
I would go clear out any pipes that you can, and see if that improves things next season. Clearing a pipe is just maintaining the existing waterway.
If that does not help, then the strategy that @lxskllr proposed is a good one. Think small.
That mowable driveable berm in the summer picture is not necessary for your MIL to enjoy the property. you can keep a nice walking path instead, and not do any big works that will put you in jeopordy.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I have done this kind of work before.
What I see is an outfall problem that lets the high water build up. If all the pipes and drainage paths are clear, that would not happen.
I would go clear out any pipes that you can, and see if that improves things next season. Clearing a pipe is just maintaining the existing waterway.
If that does not help, then the strategy that @lxskllr proposed is a good one. Think small.
That mowable driveable berm in the summer picture is not necessary for your MIL to enjoy the property. you can keep a nice walking path instead, and not do any big works that will put you in jeopordy.

Fair enough. While I'm concerned about bulk erosion, it could be as simple as pulling some material out of the outflow of the creek to lower the overall level by an inch or two.

 

[skyking]

Too bad you are probably clear across the country.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Too bad you are probably clear across the country.

Upstate NY, clear across the country from most people lol.

 

[lxskllr]

I've done a couple stream restorations. I'll try to remember to check the plans when I go into work Monday. There may be details for some of the features used on the banks you'll find interesting. The context in this case is preventing erosion. The major features would be difficult for an amateur to do without lots of iron, and major disruptions.