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Story: Need CPU/Mobo Upgrade Advice for T34 vs. Tiger Simulation

B

Bleser

Member
*** Update 9/15/2009 - See post after my post on what I bought for what I discovered last night. ***

Let me start off by saying I've been an avid computer enthusiast / system builder since 1995. I've been reading Anandtech and Tom's Hardware articles since about 1997. However, since about 2006, my interest in the CPU/motherboard arena dropped off since it seemed that a faster CPUs and more cores was quickly returning diminishing returns.

So, with that being said, I'm still running a stock-clocked Intel Core 2 Duo E6300 - the original that started it all - running @ 1.86 GHz. I can't overclock since I'm on an Intel DG965WH motherboard (prefer stability to crazy clocks). I have 6 GB DDR2-800 Corsair XMS memory. This setup has been with me since roughly December of 2006.

From everything I've read over the years, your video card seems to play an 80/20 game with your CPU in terms of performance with gaming when running at high resolutions and AA/AF settings (80% comes from GPU, 20% CPU). With that being said, I recently upgraded my nVidia GeForce 8800 GTS 640 MB to the nVidia GeForce GTX 275 1 GB. All of the benchmarks showed this card as basically doubling the performance of my 8800 GTS (or better).

However - for the first time in a long time - I've discovered I'm now very CPU-performance-limited. I got about a 7,600 3DMark06 score with the C2D 6300 / 8800 GTS setup; moving to the GTX 275 yielded a score of only 8,700. Ouch. I know this test is run in only 1280x1024 w/o AA/AF, but still, this is bad and I think illustrates why I have such poor performance in my new favorite game/simulation: WWII Battle Tanks, T-34 vs. Tiger.

TvT has absolutely stunning graphics from a tank simulator developed in Russia. If you have the patience for simulations and like WWII-era battle tanks - GET THIS GAME. Worth its weight in gold. Sad that the developer went bust recently as this is a true gem (3 year development time). But this brings me to my point (finally!) - running this game @ 1920 x 1080 with max settings returns 12 - 25 FPS, averaging about 16 FPS. More CPU-controlled vehicles greatly reduces average FPS (< 15 in most missions). Turing off all eye candy makes no performance difference (no AF/AA is same as 16xQ AA / 16x AF) which further proves my CPU is to blame.

SOOOOO. I need to upgrade my CPU/Motherboard. Here are my current options:

1. Keep motherboard and RAM. Replace E6300 with Q6700 (2.66 GHz Quad-Core) and *hope* TvT is multi-threaded. Cost: $200.

2. Keep DDR2 800 memory. Replace CPU/Motherboard with C2D E8400 (3 GHz) and Asus P5Q Turbo (Intel P45/ICH10R chip set). Cool with Zalman CNPS7700-CU and clock between 3.4 and 4 GHz. Cost: $320.

3. Ditch CPU/Mobo/Memory. Replace with Core i5 750 / Intel BOXDP55WG / 4 GB DDR3. Don't overclock (let turbo mode handle it). Cost: $430.

As you can see, I'm ruling core i7 920 out of the question. The CPU alone is $300 and good motherboards are pricey. Pair this with the fact that it won't be much faster than option 3 above and you can see why I'm not considering this.

And here's the kicker: I need to decide this TODAY. I can't stand to play such a wonderful simulation with jerky frame rates for another day!! 🙂

THANK YOU for taking the time to read this. Let me know what you would do and why. Also consider that not having to re-install my OS and re-setup my RAID config is worth-while to me.

Side question - if I have a mirror RAID setup on Intel ICH8R and just plug the same drives into the ICH10R, can I setup the same array without losing my data? Or do you have to re-format when you switch controllers?

Thanks again!
 
I'd go with the i5 if you've got the money to put into it, the platform will be around way longer, adn will be way faster than your current setup.

I doubt the game is multithreaded though, but it probably loves clock speed.
 
Well, I took a look on eBay, and my RAM is actually the most valuable component (resale value). So, moving to the i5 Platform and ditching the DDR2 allows me to subtract about $90-$100 off that cost, making it about $320, which is the same as option 2. Given that the i5 is faster than option 2 (especially in future/more modern multi-threaded games), I think I'm leaning for option 3.

Core i7 860 looks tasty as well... but $90 more. Faster uncore and hyperthreading... decisions, decisions!
 
Option 3

Turbo for poorly threaded apps, and quad goodness otherwise.
Reasonably priced on an up-to-date platform.
 
Option 3, but I'd go with a non-Intel board, and go for a mild overclock with a decent big quiet aftermarket cooler. Stock cooling on i5 is apparently pretty flimsy like most of Intel's stock coolers. The last decent Intel stock coolers IMHO were the Socket 478 setup with the lock-down.

Anyhow, you should get 3.4ghz utterly rock-stable, and it will still be cooler than running stock speed with stock cooler. Much better performance as well. Most i5s are hitting 3.7-3.9ghz, so 3.4 should be a lock.

EDIT : Stability should be fine, 3.4ghz i5 with good cooling should be 24x7 prime stable.
 
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Option 3, but I'd go with a non-Intel board, and go for a mild overclock with a decent big quiet aftermarket cooler. Stock cooling on i5 is apparently pretty flimsy like most of Intel's stock coolers. The last decent Intel stock coolers IMHO were the Socket 478 setup with the lock-down.

Anyhow, you should get 3.4ghz utterly rock-stable, and it will still be cooler than running stock speed with stock cooler. Much better performance as well. Most i5s are hitting 3.7-3.9ghz, so 3.4 should be a lock.

EDIT : Stability should be fine, 3.4ghz i5 with good cooling should be 24x7 prime stable.
Click to expand...

Good points. I've been comparing motherboards all day and am leaning towards the Asus P7P55D or P7P55D LE. For $15 it looks like you get slightly better layout and heat sinks on the voltage regulators with the non-LE board. However, agreed, why spend $140 on an Intel board that just plain doesn't even have the option... had I not done that back in 2006 I could have been running at much higher clocks with my current setup for years.

Anandtech's article pointed out that overclocking the i5 is not stable without increasing vCore, which I don't really want to do. Maybe just a slight bump to 3.0 GHz and then let turbo take it up to 3.6-3.8 when needed...

So it looks like option 3 with an Asus board as of now... what coolers are compatible with socket 1156? Newegg's cooler search doesn't list it as an option yet.

 
Originally posted by: BTRY B 529th FA BN
Good choice! If you go with an EVGA FTW it has 775lga compatible HS&F holes in the board...
Click to expand...

Hmmm... I like the CNCS7700-Cu cooler from Zalman... how do I know if this will work in the Asus board? Wich EVGA board has the socket 775 holes - I assume that is for an nVidia chipset?
 
you aren't going to be cooling any i5's or i7's with a CNPS7700. The rate of dissipation on that heatsink is just too poor, and the surface area is just too low. nehalems are 100 watt chips, if not more. paying a $70 premium simply to have LGA775 mounting holes is not a proper solution, either.

if you want something simple you can get the coolermaster hyper 212 plus from newegg for $30. a performance heatsink for 1156 would be the Noctua NH-U12P SE2, which is $66 at heatsinkfactory.com and $70 at FrozenCPU.com.

personally i think the noctua is the better deal because you get two $15 fans and top-notch thermal compound included in the price. $70 toward an elite heatsink is far better than $70 towards 775 mount holes.
 
don't want him to get that zalman. i recommended it to a friend with a single core K8 and his temps were just horrible.
 
Originally posted by: alyarb
you aren't going to be cooling any i5's or i7's with a CNPS7700. The rate of dissipation on that heatsink is just too poor, and the surface area is just too low. nehalems are 100 watt chips, if not more. paying a $70 premium simply to have LGA775 mounting holes is not a proper solution, either.

if you want something simple you can get the coolermaster hyper 212 plus from newegg for $30. a performance heatsink for 1156 would be the Noctua NH-U12P SE2, which is $66 at heatsinkfactory.com and $70 at FrozenCPU.com.

personally i think the noctua is the better deal because you get two $15 fans and top-notch thermal compound included in the price. $70 toward an elite heatsink is far better than $70 towards 775 mount holes.
Click to expand...

Wow, just what I needed to hear - thanks! I guess I just figured the CNPS7700 looked superior to the stock Intel HSF and would get me my mild overclock.

Do I basically have to go with one of these "skyriser" coolers to get good performance? Their design seems to not direct any airflow over the motherboard's voltage regulator heatsinks - which doesn't seem like a good idea.

How would something like this perform? I don't wan to get too far off topic, but advise is appreciated!
 
if you aren't raising any voltages, the VRMs do not need active cooling. the heatsinks they come with are plenty, especially if you have a strong current flowing through the case. heat towers in general offer substantial performance over traditional designs. frankly, you are going for a pretty mild overclock and i think the $30 coolermaster will suit you.

speaking of case airflow, what have you got?
 
Originally posted by: alyarb
if you aren't raising any voltages, the VRMs do not need active cooling. the heatsinks they come with are plenty, especially if you have a strong current flowing through the case. heat towers in general offer substantial performance over traditional designs. frankly, you are going for a pretty mild overclock and i think the $30 coolermaster will suit you.

speaking of case airflow, what have you got?
Click to expand...

Good points. The Cooler Master recommendation might suit me the best. If it doesn't perform as I expect then I can upgrade to the Noctua or similar later.

I have a Lian LI PC-B20B, which I still love and is super-quiet. It's all powered by a PC Power & Cooling Silencer 750.
 
seems like you're in pretty good shape to me. it's unlikely that the CPU duct will fit over the heatsink, but it will still perform better than any shorter heatsink that could fit under the duct.
 
Originally posted by: alyarb
if you aren't raising any voltages, the VRMs do not need active cooling. the heatsinks they come with are plenty, especially if you have a strong current flowing through the case. heat towers in general offer substantial performance over traditional designs. frankly, you are going for a pretty mild overclock and i think the $30 coolermaster will suit you.

speaking of case airflow, what have you got?
Click to expand...

Is this the Cooler Master we're talking about? Would it come with the right hardware for socket 1156?
 
Well everyone, here was my [recommended] solution!

ASUS P7P55D LGA 1156 Intel P55 Intel Motherboard - Retail
$149.99
Intel Core i5 750 Lynnfield 2.66GHz LGA 1156 95W Quad-Core Processor Model BX80605I5750 - Retail
$209.99
Kingston HyperX 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Desktop Memory Model KHX1600C8D3K2/4GX - Retail
$103.99
COOLER MASTER Intel Core i5 & Intel Core i7 compatible RR-B10-212P-GP 120mm "heatpipe direct contact" Long life sleeve CPU ... - Retail
$29.99

The motherboard/CPU/memory combo came with an additional $30 discount, so the recommended cooler was free. Not bad! Hell of an upgrade from an E6300 1.86 GHz... to eBay it goes.

I'll report back with how I end up overclocking it, but I'll probably be conservative. Given the turbo-mode, I don't think I'll need to push it too hard... but now that I can, it will be fun to try. 🙂

Thanks everyone for helping me out! Much appreciated.
 
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