Store Wars : The Organic Rebellion

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bluemax

Diamond Member
Apr 28, 2000
7,182
0
0
Originally posted by: Amused
So all non-"organic" foods are twinkies?

"Organic" foods are a scam. A scam that makes you pay up to twice as much for your food based on pseudo science and chicken little hysteria.

"Let me be clear about one other thing. The organic label is a marketing tool. It is not a statement about food safety. Nor is 'organic' a value judgment about nutrition or quality." --Agriculture Secretary Dan Glickman

"If it wasn't for Twinkies we'd all be dead now!" - Calvin and Hobbes.

You know perfectly well I didn't mean what you implied about Twinkies == non-GMO food.

And is it really "chicken little?" Altering the DNA of something changes its nutritional properties... as does irradiation. Consuming harsh pesticides won't do your body good.

That said, I'm not tofu-and-bean-sprouts hippie either. Yes, we eat meat and buy veggies off the counter, but I'll buy organic whenever I can if the price is only a small difference. I'm no fool - I realize we have to eat so we'll take our chances - but I know there's a potential risk for long-term effects that we just don't know about yet. Eating strange/poisoned/tainted foods have caused problems in the past. Even your founding fathers, many first Americans died not from harsh conditions or starvation, but of lead poisoning from their canned meat. (Who would have thought lead would be bad for you?)
Heck, people used to drink MERCURY (quicksilver) thinking it was a special delicacy, until people started dying some time later and they equated the two.

Oh, and nice job taking one quote from Glickman. Here's another which doesn't support your argument:
" It appears that although the opinions of the various interest groups have waxed and waned throughout the drafting process over the course of a decade, the drafters? intent has remained constant. On December 17, 1998, Dan Glickman reminded us all of the USDA?s commitment to enacting organic regulations grounded in this ultimate concern for consumer safety. He said that his department would focus on a number of key priorities in 1999, one of which was the issuance of national organic standards that are good both for farmers and consumers.[144]"

...and another...

"Jones has given use some hints about the specifics on the next NOP rule. At an April 1998 briefing between about fifty industry officials and the United States? delegation to the Codex Committee on Food Labeling, he stated that Dan Glickman, Secretary of Agriculture, had ?pretty much ruled out? including genetically modified organisms, irradiated foods and crops fertilized with sewage sludge.[152] This conjecture was cemented in Keith Jones? presentation to farmers at the Ecological Farming Conference in January, 1999.[153] Similarly, in July of last year, Glickman himself assured the NOSB that the new rule would include no synthetic material that had not been previously approved by the NOSB.[154]"
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,327
19,433
146
Originally posted by: bluemax
Originally posted by: Amused
So all non-"organic" foods are twinkies?

"Organic" foods are a scam. A scam that makes you pay up to twice as much for your food based on pseudo science and chicken little hysteria.

"Let me be clear about one other thing. The organic label is a marketing tool. It is not a statement about food safety. Nor is 'organic' a value judgment about nutrition or quality." --Agriculture Secretary Dan Glickman

"If it wasn't for Twinkies we'd all be dead now!" - Calvin and Hobbes.

You know perfectly well I didn't mean what you implied about Twinkies == non-GMO food.

And is it really "chicken little?" Altering the DNA of something changes its nutritional properties... as does irradiation. Consuming harsh pesticides won't do your body good.

That said, I'm not tofu-and-bean-sprouts hippie either. Yes, we eat meat and buy veggies off the counter, but I'll buy organic whenever I can if the price is only a small difference. I'm no fool - I realize we have to eat so we'll take our chances - but I know there's a potential risk for long-term effects that we just don't know about yet. Eating strange/poisoned/tainted foods have caused problems in the past. Even your founding fathers, many first Americans died not from harsh conditions or starvation, but of lead poisoning from their canned meat. (Who would have thought lead would be bad for you?)
Heck, people used to drink MERCURY (quicksilver) thinking it was a special delicacy, until people started dying some time later and they equated the two.

Oh, and nice job taking one quote from Glickman. Here's another which doesn't support your argument:
" It appears that although the opinions of the various interest groups have waxed and waned throughout the drafting process over the course of a decade, the drafters? intent has remained constant. On December 17, 1998, Dan Glickman reminded us all of the USDA?s commitment to enacting organic regulations grounded in this ultimate concern for consumer safety. He said that his department would focus on a number of key priorities in 1999, one of which was the issuance of national organic standards that are good both for farmers and consumers.[144]"

...and another...

"Jones has given use some hints about the specifics on the next NOP rule. At an April 1998 briefing between about fifty industry officials and the United States? delegation to the Codex Committee on Food Labeling, he stated that Dan Glickman, Secretary of Agriculture, had ?pretty much ruled out? including genetically modified organisms, irradiated foods and crops fertilized with sewage sludge.[152] This conjecture was cemented in Keith Jones? presentation to farmers at the Ecological Farming Conference in January, 1999.[153] Similarly, in July of last year, Glickman himself assured the NOSB that the new rule would include no synthetic material that had not been previously approved by the NOSB.[154]"

None of that supports your argument either. None.

All that is about are the rules for the "Organic" label. Not what is safe or unsafe.

In fact, you have NO proof that "organic" labeled foods are any safer or healthier than their normal (and vastly cheaper) counterparts.

Also, another tidbit: If ALL foods were produced to the "organic" requirements of the chicken littles, we would have mass starvation. The demands make food production so inefficient that they could not possibly keep up with demand.

And you gotta love the "sewage sludge" fears. WTF do you think manure is?

As for irradiation... thousands die each year from food poisoning. Not one has died from food irradiation.

More proof that the "organic" cultists are irrational.
 

bluemax

Diamond Member
Apr 28, 2000
7,182
0
0
I'm neither stupid, nor a glutton for punishment. This discussion is "fruitless" [drum fill] because, as usual, I could quote one source after another until my keyboard wears out and I die of terminal carpal tunnel... it doesn't matter - you've dug yourself into a foxhole and NOTHING is going to move you.

You say I'm irrational?
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,327
19,433
146
Originally posted by: bluemax
I'm neither stupid, nor a glutton for punishment. This discussion is "fruitless" [drum fill] because, as usual, I could quote one source after another until my keyboard wears out and I die of terminal carpal tunnel... it doesn't matter - you've dug yourself into a foxhole and NOTHING is going to move you.

You say I'm irrational?

Show a valid, peer reviewed and repeated study showing real world harm from any of the issues "organic" food claims to solve.

Show a valid, peer reviewed and repeated study showing, with all other factors being equal, that organic food eaters are healthier or live longer.

You cannot, because no such studies exist. The minute a groups of studies like this do exist, I will capitulate.

Rational is not buying into a cult belief without proof. Rational is not buying identical foods for twice as much based on unproven claims.
 

bluemax

Diamond Member
Apr 28, 2000
7,182
0
0
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: bluemax
I'm neither stupid, nor a glutton for punishment. This discussion is "fruitless" [drum fill] because, as usual, I could quote one source after another until my keyboard wears out and I die of terminal carpal tunnel... it doesn't matter - you've dug yourself into a foxhole and NOTHING is going to move you.

You say I'm irrational?

Show a valid, peer reviewed and repeated study showing real world harm from any of the issues "organic" food claims to solve.

Show a valid, peer reviewed and repeated study showing, with all other factors being equal, that organic food eaters are healthier or live longer.

You cannot, because no such studies exist. The minute a groups of studies like this do exist, I will capitulate.

Rational is not buying into a cult belief without proof. Rational is not buying identical foods for twice as much based on unproven claims.

Ditto, for your platform.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,327
19,433
146
Originally posted by: bluemax
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: bluemax
I'm neither stupid, nor a glutton for punishment. This discussion is "fruitless" [drum fill] because, as usual, I could quote one source after another until my keyboard wears out and I die of terminal carpal tunnel... it doesn't matter - you've dug yourself into a foxhole and NOTHING is going to move you.

You say I'm irrational?

Show a valid, peer reviewed and repeated study showing real world harm from any of the issues "organic" food claims to solve.

Show a valid, peer reviewed and repeated study showing, with all other factors being equal, that organic food eaters are healthier or live longer.

You cannot, because no such studies exist. The minute a groups of studies like this do exist, I will capitulate.

Rational is not buying into a cult belief without proof. Rational is not buying identical foods for twice as much based on unproven claims.

Ditto, for your platform.

I don't have to prove a negative. Learn basic logic, OK? Maybe if you do, you wont buy into such a silly cult and be suckered out of your money so easily.
 

djheater

Lifer
Mar 19, 2001
14,637
2
0
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: bluemax
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: bluemax
I'm neither stupid, nor a glutton for punishment. This discussion is "fruitless" [drum fill] because, as usual, I could quote one source after another until my keyboard wears out and I die of terminal carpal tunnel... it doesn't matter - you've dug yourself into a foxhole and NOTHING is going to move you.

You say I'm irrational?

Show a valid, peer reviewed and repeated study showing real world harm from any of the issues "organic" food claims to solve.

Show a valid, peer reviewed and repeated study showing, with all other factors being equal, that organic food eaters are healthier or live longer.

You cannot, because no such studies exist. The minute a groups of studies like this do exist, I will capitulate.

Rational is not buying into a cult belief without proof. Rational is not buying identical foods for twice as much based on unproven claims.

Ditto, for your platform.

I don't have to prove a negative. Learn basic logic, OK? Maybe if you do, you wont buy into such a silly cult and be suckered out of your money so easily.


90% or more of our produce is organic.
We belong to a CSA (Community Supported Agriculture) called Kings Hill Farm.
We're a family of five and a 'bushel' of fresh organic produce is $30 a week, which includes fruit. Not only is the produce chemical free it also is grown locally (when possible), and a portion of the proceeds supports the private school I send my children to.

Sometimes one makes a decision based on more than just what's in the journals. There are other considerations.