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rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,385
13
61
If we stick our heads in the sand, the world will be perfect!

Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Hirohito would all agree with you fully! Don't worry about what other countries do, don't worry about the millions of people they murdered. Just tell yourself "sometimes these things just happen" (direct quote from the OP).
 

nickbits

Diamond Member
Mar 10, 2008
4,125
1
71
The US needs to mind it's own business. Unless a country is a direct treat to us we need to leave them the fuck alone. We are not the morality police and we don't have the money to be anyway.
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,385
13
61
The US needs to mind it's own business. Unless a country is a direct treat to us we need to leave them the fuck alone. We are not the morality police and we don't have the money to be anyway.
Even if that country gave up a major self defense mechanism on the promise that we would defend it?
 

Gunslinger08

Lifer
Nov 18, 2001
13,236
2
71
The situation in Ukraine seems more like a civil war with outside support than an invasion to me. From what I've heard, the general sentiment of the Crimean people is that they'd prefer to be Russian. I don't think that we should be involved at this point, other than trying to help everyone reach a peaceful conclusion.

To parallel with our own civil war, I'm not sure how exactly you decide whether or not a split is lawful and what merits bloodshed. Why is maintaining the union worth thousands/millions of lives?

If Russia were to outright claim Crimea (without Crimean leaders or the people voting for annexation) or if they were to send troops into mainland Ukraine or another neighboring country, I think that would be grounds for intervention.
 
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nickbits

Diamond Member
Mar 10, 2008
4,125
1
71
Even if that country gave up a major self defense mechanism on the promise that we would defend it?
Hmm. Ideally we wouldn't have been involved in the first place. I suppose we have to make good on our promises I just wish we would stay out of things.

But TBH, I don't really know too much about the specifics of what is going on in the Ukraine, my comment was my opinion in general.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,017
571
126
The media is sensationalizing the situation in the Ukraine with their "Breaking News" alerts and whatnot. The politicians, such as Rubio and others won't miss a moment to make a remark about the situation whether they know anything at all about what is happening. The same goes for the everyday person like you and me. We've all got opinions that have nothing to do with reality. We don't know what is going on, we're just going by second, third and fourth hand accounts.

So, I might be totally wrong but maybe the action should be to do nothing. Just live your life, stop following news outlets like a nervous person, stop cheering for your favorite Senator. We all get caught up in this fever and lose our minds. This is war fever. We feel our fears coming out and that leads to other emotions as well. So, just take it easy.

Enough with patriotism and nationalism. Enough with cheering for your favorite political party. A party which some of you cheer for just as much as you cheer for your favorite football team. These political guys will not help you, they will not help anyone else - but they will create more confusion and problems. What Obama or Rubio says comes from their own self interest, that is all. It's all self motivated action. Unfortunately, most people believe this stuff and are easily led into wars and other disastrous situations.
It's good advice to ignore things that 99% of the time you can't change, and focus on things that you can, like raising your children right.
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,385
13
61
Hmm. Ideally we wouldn't have been involved in the first place. I suppose we have to make good on our promises I just wish we would stay out of things.

But TBH, I don't really know too much about the specifics of what is going on in the Ukraine, my comment was my opinion in general.
I think we all agree that in theory, we should mind our own fucking business. But the problem is we have made a ton of deals with a ton of countries. With the Ukraine, we promised them that if they got rid of their nukes, we would defend them in case of an invasion. Who in the hell would have thought that would ever happen? And if it did happen, who would have thought it would have been a (former?) super power?

The whole situation sucks. Its stupid. It all breaks down to Putin playing games and putting the US in check once again. We really don't stand to lose anything if we don't act, other than our word will mean nothing in future negotiations. But then what happens the next time we try to get nukes away from a country that shouldn't have them?
 

phillyTIM

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2001
1,940
10
81
One must also consider that just because a sect of people grafts itself to overtake the current government, it doesn't automatically make that sect legitimized either.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Do you believe military manufacturers are influencing Putin to invade Ukraine? I do not believe so.
Meh, I don't think it has to be anything so overt. It's simply a confluence of interests. It's in the interest of military suppliers because they make money from war, not peace. It's in Putin's interests because it reinforces his power and helps him keep the Russian people compliant ("We're at war. This is not the time to challenge me."). It's in our government's interests because it helps keep the American people distracted and compliant ("We're at war. You're either with us or you support the communists^h^h^h^h^h terrorists^h^h^h^h^h Putin, the next Hitler, Stalin, etc.")


It's a nice talking piece, but it doesn't fit the situation and as such only serves as an irrelevant side discussion.
You are welcome to your opinion.
 
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phillyTIM

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2001
1,940
10
81
Exactly. Just insert "Bush's" for "Putin's" and "American" in place of "Russian" and we will have time-warped back 11 years when Bush had his cabinet of warhawk cronies and diverted people worrying about Bush being on vacation more than any other president in history.


Meh, I don't think it has to be anything so overt. It's simply a confluence of interests. It's in the interest of military suppliers because they make money from war, not peace. It's in Putin's interests because it reinforces his power and helps him keep the Russian people compliant ("We're at war. This is not the time to challenge me."). It's in our government's interests because it's help keep the American people distracted and compliant ("We're at war. You're either with us or you support the communists^h^h^h^h^h terrorists^h^h^h^h^h Putin, the next Hitler, Stalin, etc.")



You are welcome to your opinion.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,525
42
86
Meh, I don't think it has to be anything so overt. It's simply a confluence of interests. It's in the interest of military suppliers because they make money from war, not peace. It's in Putin's interests because it reinforces his power and helps him keep the Russian people compliant ("We're at war. This is not the time to challenge me."). It's in our government's interests because it helps keep the American people distracted and compliant ("We're at war. You're either with us or you support the communists^h^h^h^h^h terrorists^h^h^h^h^h Putin, the next Hitler, Stalin, etc.")


You are welcome to your opinion.
blah blah blah blah blah

The soviet ussr was a horrible government to live under. So what is the answer for people who do not want to live under that kind of control & oppression again? Suck it up because Bowfinger doesn't want a military supplier to make money? Because Bowfinger doesn't want a politician to selfishly gain anything from the conflict? That's a fucking nice thing to tell a fellow human being.

Tell me, how exactly do the interests of the citizens of Eastern Europe fit into your confluence?
 
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Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
blah blah blah blah blah

The soviet ussr was a horrible government to live under. So what is the answer for people who do not want to live under that kind of control & oppression again? Suck it up because Bowfinger doesn't want a military supplier to make money? Because Bowfinger doesn't want a politician to selfishly gain anything from the conflict? That's a fucking nice thing to tell a fellow human being.

Tell me, how exactly do the interests of the citizens of Eastern Europe fit into your confluence?
I don't know what that flatulent spew has to do with anything I posted, but you're clearly butt-hurt about something. Perhaps if you learn to read and write English coherently we might discuss it, but as it stands you appear to be more interested in picking a fight. Peddle your gratuitous hostility elsewhere.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,525
42
86
I don't know what that flatulent spew has to do with anything I posted, but you're clearly butt-hurt about something. Perhaps if you learn to read and write English coherently we might discuss it, but as it stands you appear to be more interested in picking a fight. Peddle your gratuitous hostility elsewhere.
It's quite simple, you started by posting a military-industrial complex rant.

I'm curious on what exactly you meant with your post, involving all entities in the situation, not just a select few that make the words of your post fit. And what you would prefer to see happen in the U.S. and around the world, specifically Ukraine as it is the topic of the day.

Are you against the U.S. having a strong military? You can answer it either way, but the ultimate questions are, what do you believe is best for the people of Ukraine, how do you believe that can be achieved, and what do you believe caused the situation to present itself?
 
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Jodell88

Diamond Member
Jan 29, 2007
9,492
41
91
For those that say the the U.S should stay out of it. The world is so interconnected that what happens in the Ukraine will have an impact on the U.S (and the world) in some form or another. Countries are no longer isolated from each other, we're all connected.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
It's quite simple, you started by posting a military-industrial complex rant.
No, I posted an observation about what a boon these developments are to military suppliers. Last week they were faced with significant lost business. Now they're looking at a potential boom. That's a simple truth. You, on the other hand, started with a rant.


I'm curious on what exactly you meant with your post,
I meant what I said. This is a boon to military suppliers, and can be a boon to any governments that choose to exploit Russia's actions with fear-mongering. The subtext is that we should therefore be thoughtful in considering the "news" from the Ukraine, not succumbing to fear with knee-jerk conclusions based on potentially tainted information. In more blunt terms, let's not pull another Iraq where Americans were cowed into supporting an unwarranted invasion based on fear-mongering and willful disinformation. Let's make sure we really understand what's happening and how it affects the United States.


involving all entities in the situation, not just a select few that make the words of your post fit.
What select few? What other entities should I have mentioned? The media, who benefit greatly from fear-mongering and wars? The mothers and fathers whose sons and daughters may become cannon fodder if we enter another war? The Ukrainian people (who you might remember were being gunned down by their government just a couple of weeks ago)?


And what you would prefer to see happen in the U.S. and around the world, specifically Ukraine as it is the topic of the day.
I would prefer we use our military only as a last resort, when America faces direct and substantial threats to our safety, or perhaps when key American allies face such substantial threats.


Are you against the U.S. having a strong military? You can answer it either way,
That's a disingenuous question since we are in no danger of not having a strong military. We spend almost as much on our military as the rest of the world combined. We can make intelligent cuts in that spending while preserving tremendous military might.


but the ultimate questions are, what do you believe is best for the people of Ukraine, how do you believe that can be achieved, and what do you believe caused the situation to present itself?
That may be your questions, but they're way outside the bounds of my original comment. That said, I don't know yet, and neither do you. I know our media coverage will be superficial and sensationalistic. I know government statements will be crafted to support whatever agenda each government is working. Therefore, lacking solid information upon which to form an opinion, I'll keep an open mind.
 
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raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
11,836
140
106
It's good advice to ignore things that 99% of the time you can't change, and focus on things that you can, like raising your children right.
But we want to feel important and voice our opinions regarding world affairs. Look at the people on this forum, just to get a small idea of what's going on. These are the type of people politicians lust after. True believers and followers. Democrats and Republicans. Liberals and Conservatives. Both are the same, just different sides of the same coin.

We've been so conditioned that it might be almost impossible to change the way humans view things. Thus, warfare will continue and man will suffer. But we will always justify it one way or another. Carry on.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
11,836
140
106
Do tell, what is your real motivation for discussing this topic? What made you feel you needed to voice your opinions here?

That's where the real discussion and insight is, not this superficial level this thread is at.
My real motivation? I don't know, maybe I saw the propaganda from the media and the politicians and saw the predictable reaction from the people. All marching towards the same thing. I felt that maybe it might do good just to put something different out there, something that's not quite as common. But from the looks of it, we humans are just far too eager for wars and conflicts. We always have a justification.
 

Thebobo

Lifer
Jun 19, 2006
18,596
7,665
136
Even if that country gave up a major self defense mechanism on the promise that we would defend it?
There was no promise from the US to physically defend the Ukraine, although Russia would seem to have violated this agreement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Ukraine

Ukraine demanded from Russia, the USA, France and the United Kingdom a written statement that these powers undertook to extend the security guarantees to Ukraine. Instead security assurances to Ukraine (Ukraine published the documents as guarantees given to Ukraine),[6] given on 5 December 1994 at a formal ceremony in Budapest (known as the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances[7]), may be summarized as follows: Russia, the UK and the USA undertake to respect Ukraine's borders in accordance with the principles of the 1975 CSCE Final Act, to abstain from the use or threat of force against Ukraine, to support Ukraine where an attempt is made to place pressure on it by economic coercion, and to bring any incident of aggression by a nuclear power before the UN Security Council.
 

Spungo

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2012
3,217
2
81
Unfortunately, most people believe this stuff and are easily led into wars and other disastrous situations.
What's funny is how many financial analysts predicted war this year. Why? Because it's a widely known fact that governments start wars for the sake of distracting people. Look at China. That country is an absolute disaster. China is in the biggest financial bubble ever, and they've started talking about invading some Japanese islands or invading the Philippines. Japan is on the edge of bankruptcy, and they've started talking about war. American politicians have been talking about wars in the middle east since the 2008 meltdown (Iran, Syria, Egypt). North Korea tests rockets every time they run out of food.

Obama and Kerry seem hell bent on destroying the world. They tried to start world war 3 in Syria then backed down. They tried to start world war 3 in Iran then backed down. Now they're trying to start word war 3 in Ukraine. The people of Crimea are ethnic Russians who largely support Russia. Crimea was part of Russia until 1954. They're not "invading" Ukraine. They're protecting ethnic Russians against the puppet government that controls the west side of Ukraine.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,587
9
81
"Freedom fighters, will of the people" when it's in other countries.

"Preserving the Union." When it's in the USA. Total hypocracy.
I was thinking about start a thread on this. The US seems to be all for the fracturing of existing nations when it's anyone else. Ukraine should be it's own country. Yugoslavia should break up so these distinct people can choose their own government. The south secede? That's treason!

What exactly are the rules for deciding what should be a nation/state and what are not? Clearly we have some massive political divides in the US, why are they not enough to split the US and let people forge their own direction?
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,876
460
126
Do you believe military manufacturers are influencing Putin to invade Ukraine? I do not believe so.

It's a nice talking piece, but it doesn't fit the situation and as such only serves as an irrelevant side discussion.
It's just another version of blame America.
 

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