Steve Jobs posts his thoughts on Flash

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TheStu

Moderator<br>Mobile Devices & Gadgets
Moderator
Sep 15, 2004
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Why is this? Is OS X intrinsicly inferior to Windows OS wrt flash?

It is a combination of both Apple and Adobe not coming to the table. Adobe has access to GPU APIs in Windows that they can use to offload Flash to the GPU (in recent years, but we have been having Flash problems for years on OS X) Apple has only recently (like 2 weeks ago) opened up similar APIs on OS X.

However, as I said, even before Windows had hardware acceleration Flash still blew on OS X. Let me put it to you this way, a standard Flash video (not 480 or 720p) would, on occasion, cause my previous 1.83GHz Core Duo laptop to spike both cores at 100% utilization, it would spin the fan up to max and the temps would climb. So I could watch a dog on a skateboard. Meanwhile, my classmate with the 1.8 GHz Pentium M and Windows XP was having no problems. This was 3.5 years ago, before Flash 10, heck I think before Flash 9.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
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I had an Adobe engineer explain it to me. I won't try to repeat because I will get something wrong. It has to do with have Flash handles screen invalidation frame to frame on Windows vs OS X. Windows is able to invalidate small regions that only need to be redrawn where OS X requires a full redraw every frame. I don't know how accurate that is.


That should only impact performance not stability though, yes?
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
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Interesting bit on Wired from 2 former Adobe employees:

Carlos Icaza and Walter Luh, former Adobe mobile engineers, said they were raising flags at Adobe in 2007 about the same complaints that Jobs detailed Thursday.
“Walter and I, being the lead architects for Flash Lite, we were seeing the iPhone touch devices coming out, and we kept saying ‘Hey, this is coming along,’” Icaza said in a phone interview. “You have this white elephant that everybody ignored. Half the [Adobe] mobile business unit was carrying iPhones, and yet the management team wasn’t doing anything about it.”
Icaza and Luh have a vested interest in this dispute: After leaving Adobe, they launched a startup, Ansca Mobile, which produces a cross-platform solution called Corona that competes with Flash.
They said they left Adobe because executives did not take the iPhone seriously when Apple announced the touchscreen device in 2007. Instead, Adobe focused on feature phones (cellphones with lightweight web features, not smartphones) and invested in development of Flash Lite to play Flash videos on such devices. Subsequently, Adobe shut down the mobile business unit in 2007, and has suffered from a brain drain in the mobility space ever since, Icaza and Luh said.
The relationship between Apple and Adobe dates back years, as Jobs acknowledged in his blog post. Apple in the past has relied heavily on Adobe’s Creative Suite to market the Mac as a platform for creative types. But the relationship has been eroding ever since Apple introduced the iPhone and opted against supporting Adobe’s Flash platform on the mobile device. Tensions increased when Apple released the iPad, which continues Apple’s steadfast lack of Flash support.
Adobe last year announced it was developing a work-around for Flash developers to easily port their programs into iPhone apps. But this month, just a week before Adobe was scheduled to release the feature, Apple issued a new clause in its developer policy, which stipulated that iPhone apps must be coded with Apple-approved programming languages (not Flash).
Adobe’s 2007 decision to focus on Flash Lite and feature phones instead of iPhone compatibility is the reason Adobe is behind and still has not offered a fine-tuned version of Flash for any smartphone, including the iPhone or any Android device, Icaza and Luh said.
The pair echoed many of the same concerns expressed by the Apple CEO.
“Flash was designed for the desktop world, for web and large screens, not the user experiences you want to create in these new devices with touch, accelerometers and GPS,” Luh said. “It wasn’t designed with that in mind at all.”
Luh was also formerly employed by Apple on the Final Cut Pro team. He said that because Adobe’s Flash Packager didn’t use Apple’s toolchain to create apps, the resulting code would not work well on an iPhone or iPad. A simple “Hello World” app created in Flash and compiled to work on the iPhone would take up 8 MB, he said, when it should be no longer than a few KB. (Wired.com verified this figure with two other developers who have tested the iPhone Packager tool in CS5.)
Macromedia, the original maker of Flash, was acquired by Adobe in 2005. Luh said it was disappointing that Adobe failed to translate Macromedia’s success into a compelling mobile platform.
“The biggest irony of all is that Adobe Macromedia was so far ahead of the game, it was unbelievable; it was a billion-dollar industry,” Luh said. “Macromedia was essential to that entire ecosystem…. The fact that through Adobe, they couldn’t find a way to convert that to the rest of the world through smartphones, they really kind of just lost sight of what was really important.”

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/04/adobe-flash-jobs/
 

AstroManLuca

Lifer
Jun 24, 2004
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In all this discussion over Flash on mobile devices, has anyone lost sight of what Flash on a phone would actually do? A lot of Flash games won't work quite right on phones, either due to inadequate controls (no keyboard, no mouse pointer) or hardware requirements. And it's not like there's any shortage of non-Flash games on any mobile platform. The only other big area where Flash is useful is videos, and most popular video sites have mobile versions if you just go to m.[video site].com.

I think Apple is going a little far in refusing to ever allow Flash on their devices, even as a stepping stone or interim solution until HTML5 is actually widespread, but I'm not sure I actually miss Flash on my phone (which runs Android but is not Flash-capable).
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
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I think Flash is equally unstable across all platforms.

Well that's good then as I don't seem to have any general flash problems here, so if its stable on all platforms then its just getting performance tuned on Macs thats the problem.
 

JACKDRUID

Senior member
Nov 28, 2007
729
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I think Flash is equally unstable across all platforms.

you think wrong.

flash is quite stable on windows platform.

flash lite is stable on windows mobile, however it doesn't support all functions and is slow at time, but stability wise, it is fine (rarely crash).
 
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JACKDRUID

Senior member
Nov 28, 2007
729
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A lot of Flash games won't work quite right on phones.

we are talking about ipad, which is a netbook replacement with huge screen and fast cpu.

I have played with my friend's ipad. you DO miss flash functionality on it because with ipad, you do use it as a netbook tablet.
 
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zerocool84

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
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This all just comes down to the bad blood they have for each other and it's been going for on yeasrs. Plain and simple.
 

Wonderful Pork

Golden Member
Jul 24, 2005
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dont worry, i'm not.

its TRULY A SHAME, that apple would disable flash and intentionally make ipad not able to offer full web surf experience... because ipad hardware is SO PERFECT for browsing due its speed, size, weight, and design.

The only reason the experience is "SO PERFECT" is because of the software it runs. Remember it only has 256MB of RAM.
 

TheWart

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2000
5,219
1
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Given the debate here about how long will it take flash to be relegated to the 'games only' category on the internet, I found this Techcrunch article titled "H.264 Already Won" interesting.

As the chart shows, in the past four quarters, the H.264 format went from 31 percent of all videos to 66 percent, and is now the largest format by far. Meanwhile, Flash is represented by Flash VP6 and FLV, which combined represent only 26 percent of all videos. That is down from a combined total of 69 percent four quarters ago. So the native Flash codecs and H.264 have completely flipped in terms of market share

Read more: http://techcrunch.com/2010/05/01/h-...unch)&utm_content=Google+Reader#ixzz0mh52zfUo


edit: am I going crazy or when one cuts/pastes blurbs from articles into AT, there is now automatically a "Read More" link at the bottom of the quoted text. Kind of a cool feature...when was it implemented?
 

pm

Elite Member Mobile Devices
Jan 25, 2000
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Given the debate here about how long will it take flash to be relegated to the 'games only' category on the internet, I found this Techcrunch article titled "H.264 Already Won" interesting.

edit: am I going crazy or when one cuts/pastes blurbs from articles into AT, there is now automatically a "Read More" link at the bottom of the quoted text. Kind of a cool feature...when was it implemented?

That is much faster than I would have thought.

As far a "read more" link, I hadn't seen that before. The forums were upgraded two nights ago, though.
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
0
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Given the debate here about how long will it take flash to be relegated to the 'games only' category on the internet, I found this Techcrunch article titled "H.264 Already Won" interesting.




edit: am I going crazy or when one cuts/pastes blurbs from articles into AT, there is now automatically a "Read More" link at the bottom of the quoted text. Kind of a cool feature...when was it implemented?

Yep, one of the things everyone keeps discounting is that the iPhone/iPad are 800 lb gorillas of the mobile web. If you can't access something on them, the websites hear about it pretty quickly.

With Jobs making such a vocal push, it's going to speed up, especially since folks who didn't really understand what was happening to their web experience are able to tell webmasters and companies what the problem is.

"Your site uses Flash and I can't view it on my iPhone/iPad, please fix it."
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
33,189
11,357
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Yep, one of the things everyone keeps discounting is that the iPhone/iPad are 800 lb gorillas of the mobile web. If you can't access something on them, the websites hear about it pretty quickly.

With Jobs making such a vocal push, it's going to speed up, especially since folks who didn't really understand what was happening to their web experience are able to tell webmasters and companies what the problem is.

"Your site uses Flash and I can't view it on my iPhone/iPad, please fix it."


Is there anything at the moment that can replace flash for interactive charts and the like?

Most of the times I miss flash on web sites its nothing to do with video and games.

Try uninstalling flash on your desktop and browsing aroud and you really notice all the little things.
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,351
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Yep, one of the things everyone keeps discounting is that the iPhone/iPad are 800 lb gorillas of the mobile web. If you can't access something on them, the websites hear about it pretty quickly.

With Jobs making such a vocal push, it's going to speed up, especially since folks who didn't really understand what was happening to their web experience are able to tell webmasters and companies what the problem is.

"Your site uses Flash and I can't view it on my iPhone/iPad, please fix it."

Good point. With over a million people using those overpriced paperweights :p, its another reason for websites to get rid of flash.

I'm liking those things more and more every day...
 

JACKDRUID

Senior member
Nov 28, 2007
729
0
0
Yep, one of the things everyone keeps discounting is that the iPhone/iPad are 800 lb gorillas of the mobile web. If you can't access something on them, the websites hear about it pretty quickly.

With Jobs making such a vocal push, it's going to speed up, especially since folks who didn't really understand what was happening to their web experience are able to tell webmasters and companies what the problem is.

"Your site uses Flash and I can't view it on my iPhone/iPad, please fix it."

now you see how everything would be so much easier for EVERYBODY if Apple would just allow flash.

Steve jobs is just being a prick. for the sake of everyone, stop supporting him.
 
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Qbah

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2005
3,754
10
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Yep, one of the things everyone keeps discounting is that the iPhone/iPad are 800 lb gorillas of the mobile web. If you can't access something on them, the websites hear about it pretty quickly.

With Jobs making such a vocal push, it's going to speed up, especially since folks who didn't really understand what was happening to their web experience are able to tell webmasters and companies what the problem is.

"Your site uses Flash and I can't view it on my iPhone/iPad, please fix it."

So everybody on the Web should change their Web sites just because ONE phone can't properly display them? And every other smartphone can?

People complaining that their iPhone doesn't support Flash should direct their complaints to Apple and not Web site owners. Every PC and every smartphone except the iPhone will display the sites fine... So yeah, obviously everybody should change their ways... >.>

And in case you're wondering, I have a 16GB 3GS. And I grow tired of the BS Apple is spreading.
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
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So everybody on the Web should change their Web sites just because ONE phone can't properly display them? And every other smartphone can?

People complaining that their iPhone doesn't support Flash should direct their complaints to Apple and not Web site owners. Every PC and every smartphone except the iPhone will display the sites fine... So yeah, obviously everybody should change their ways... >.>

And in case you're wondering, I have a 16GB 3GS. And I grow tired of the BS Apple is spreading.

Really?

Which smartphones are you thinking of? The N1, the Droid, Blackberries?

They're Flash capable?

Really?
 
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dguy6789

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2002
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Correction, Adobe has been promising Flash on smartphones for >3 years now, and has yet to deliver on one single platform

As Jobs said, Flash wasn't originally designed for mobile. Maybe Adobe is spending all of that time making a version that will actually be good on the devices.
 

TheStu

Moderator<br>Mobile Devices & Gadgets
Moderator
Sep 15, 2004
12,089
45
91
As Jobs said, Flash wasn't originally designed for mobile. Maybe Adobe is spending all of that time making a version that will actually be good on the devices.

That's fine, but if it takes them this long to get version 1.0 out the door, and given how fast the mobile OS realm is moving these days (Apple updating at least once a year, Android faster than that), how long to get from FlashMobile 1.0 to the next requisite version.

Are they going to have the staff available to make sure that FlashMobile 1.5 works on Android 2.0, 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, iPhone 3.1.3, 4.0+? Or are they just going to limit it to the latest version of the OS (not a terrible thing, except that the 2.1 update took its sweet time to get to all Android devices that could use it.)
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
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That's fine, but if it takes them this long to get version 1.0 out the door, and given how fast the mobile OS realm is moving these days (Apple updating at least once a year, Android faster than that), how long to get from FlashMobile 1.0 to the next requisite version.

Are they going to have the staff available to make sure that FlashMobile 1.5 works on Android 2.0, 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, iPhone 3.1.3, 4.0+? Or are they just going to limit it to the latest version of the OS (not a terrible thing, except that the 2.1 update took its sweet time to get to all Android devices that could use it.)

That brings up another interesting issue, Android users aren't getting a clear upgrade path, and most users are still using the OS their device shipped with:

androidstats.jpg


The problem of fragmentation rears it's ugly head with apps like the one Twitter just released, it only works on 2.1 and above. Skinned versions of Android are reliant on manufacturer supplied updates, which may never come.

That data is from Google BTW... http://developer.android.com/resources/dashboard/platform-versions.html
 

dguy6789

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2002
8,558
3
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Fragmentation is a non issue. Android is not a phone, it's an operating system. Anyone who mentions fragmentation as a problem does not fully grasp this very significant difference.

There have never been issues with Windows fragmentation just like there have never been issues with Android fragmentation. Windows XP, Vista, and 7 run all kinds of the same applications just like Android 1.5, 1.6, 2.0, and 2.1 do.

The fact is, old devices running old software will not always get to run the latest and greatest. Just like how people with old and slow Windows 98 PCs won't be able to run the latest and most demanding applications and games, this applies to smartphones as well. The difference between the latest smartphones and the first ones is absolutely gigantic.

That said, every Android device ever made so far including the G1 will eventually get at least up to Android 2.1.