Stephen Lerner wants to overthrow the government

[Matt1970]

You apparently didn't talk to any shady mortgage brokers as Dubya's "Ownership Society" was peaking, because they'd have told you differently, just as they did with lots of others. Many people entered the market on the promise of ever increasing prices and the idea that they too could successfully flip a house before the clock ran out on their negative amortization sub prime ARM... nail down a profit for its own sake or one that would allow them to trade down to something they could actually afford. Gambling? for sure, but the downside is the same on a $300K note you can't afford as it is on a $800K note you can't afford, but the upside is a lot bigger.

The real crime was on the other end of it all, with securitizers successfully representing crap as gold to investors while stabbing them in the back with derivatives... It was a setup all around, aided, abetted, exploited and cheered on by the Bush Admin and the pundits of free market self regulated banking.

Well then go after them for securities fraud. The answer is not to topple the banks or Wallstreet.

 

[CycloWizard]

You apparently didn't talk to any shady mortgage brokers as Dubya's "Ownership Society" was peaking, because they'd have told you differently, just as they did with lots of others. Many people entered the market on the promise of ever increasing prices and the idea that they too could successfully flip a house before the clock ran out on their negative amortization sub prime ARM... nail down a profit for its own sake or one that would allow them to trade down to something they could actually afford. Gambling? for sure, but the downside is the same on a $300K note you can't afford as it is on a $800K note you can't afford, but the upside is a lot bigger.

The real crime was on the other end of it all, with securitizers successfully representing crap as gold to investors while stabbing them in the back with derivatives... It was a setup all around, aided, abetted, exploited and cheered on by the Bush Admin and the pundits of free market self regulated banking.

People bet the farm - literally - and lost. The reason the wealthy are wealthy is because they made smarter bets than the rest of us. If there weren't thousands of pages of regulations governing mortgages, then these people could sit across the table from the banker, work out the terms of the loan, and sign something instead of signing reams of paper that only a lawyer can decipher.

 

[Jhhnn]

Well then go after them for securities fraud. The answer is not to topple the banks or Wallstreet.

Heh. It's not like you or I or Lerner can actually do that, now is it?

Lerner doesn't want to topple the banks, anyway, but rather to put them in a squeeze play, force them to renegotiate America's mortgages en masse, rather than giving the idea lip service as they keep on keepin' on...

 

[Zebo]

Well then go after them for securities fraud. The answer is not to topple the banks or Wallstreet.

That's like going after their boss for the politicains and for the securities police their future and/or former employer.

 

[Jhhnn]

People bet the farm - literally - and lost. The reason the wealthy are wealthy is because they made smarter bets than the rest of us. If there weren't thousands of pages of regulations governing mortgages, then these people could sit across the table from the banker, work out the terms of the loan, and sign something instead of signing reams of paper that only a lawyer can decipher.

At this point, I'd offer that the wealthy are wealthier than ever because they have inside information and the means to manipulate the market. It's not like Joe Schmo can engage in the trading of synthetic derivatives, or has the resources to legally invest in hedge funds.

Attributing the complexity of mortgage documents to regulation is absurd- bankers love fine print, and have since long before there were any regs.

 

[Matt1970]

Heh. It's not like you or I or Lerner can actually do that, now is it?

Lerner doesn't want to topple the banks, anyway, but rather to put them in a squeeze play, force them to renegotiate America's mortgages en masse, rather than giving the idea lip service as they keep on keepin' on...

And renegotiate what exactly? The price of the house? The banks don't control that. The interest rate? Mortgage rates are just a couple points over prime. The length of the mortgage? That's decided by the borrower.

 

[Matt1970]

At this point, I'd offer that the wealthy are wealthier than ever because they have inside information and the means to manipulate the market. It's not like Joe Schmo can engage in the trading of synthetic derivatives, or has the resources to legally invest in hedge funds.

Attributing the complexity of mortgage documents to regulation is absurd- bankers love fine print, and have since long before there were any regs.

So everyone who is rich did so by illegal insider trading??? You can't possibly think that.

 

[Zebo]

People bet the farm - literally - and lost. The reason the wealthy are wealthy is because they made smarter bets than the rest of us. If there weren't thousands of pages of regulations governing mortgages, then these people could sit across the table from the banker, work out the terms of the loan, and sign something instead of signing reams of paper that only a lawyer can decipher.

Horseshit. Even after the facts are out people are still clueless.

Let review what really went down instead of calling everyone else idiots.

1. Banks made loans they knew could not be paid back. Citibank's Chief underwriter tells us this when he testifies under oath that Citi knew "60% of loans were defective in 2006 and 80% defective in 2007." Defective means not worth a shit, junk, garbage gonna default in bankers lingo. This is fraud by inducement.
http://fcic.gov/hearings/pdfs/2010-0407-Bowen.pdf

2. But they did not care. Why? Because they could unload them by slapping AAA on them and blowing sunshine up peoples behind in the form of MBS to your pensions, 401k, pers and whatnot. When you sell garbage to someone intentionally concealing it's garbage that's fraud too.

3. Problem is people who bought all that trash and paid good money for it were not getting returns expected because they were trash. Bankers still held too many. So market started going crazy some firms fell apart and whatnot.


4. Banks threaten us with "tanks in the streets" and extort us for about 700 billion bucks.

5. They get about 700 billion dollars but they don't buy up bad paper they instead got more money to speculate with (buy DOW low, commodities or insider trading that is blowing up now).

6. Instead accounting board, FASB, is extorted by Obama to shore up the bad paper; Marking these loans which everyone garbage at whatever the banks wished, instead of at their actual value which is about 40% after lawyers, Realtor, fees, restoration to the property.

7. But all this hocus pocus does not make the problem go away, as the bad paper is still there and the losses are still real. Cash flow problems are kicking with people not paying for two years and with no intention of paying. Can't pretend forever.

8. So they start going to court either as servicer or holder to get cash. But they sure as shit can't show the original note it might be shown original W2 was altered by the banks etc etc etc. MBS's who have been trying to get original note have also been stiff armed for years now. And they will never show it if they can help it because they would be sued into the ground for #1 and #2 above. Not to mention a pattern of fraudulent conduct gets to racketeering. So they come empty handed just with their word. aka "lost note affidavit"

9. Banks start fraudulently robosigning for judges to see, sometimes dated after foreclosure date claiming they own loan or acting as servicer
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/...ions-have.html

 

[Jhhnn]

And renegotiate what exactly? The price of the house? The banks don't control that. The interest rate? Mortgage rates are just a couple points over prime. The length of the mortgage? That's decided by the borrower.

Actually, as servicers of mortgage trusts, the banks can completely renegotiate the terms of any mortgage, if it can be shown to be in the interests of the trust to do so. It's called loan modification. It's rarely in the interests of servicers to do so, however, so they don't.

 

[Infohawk]

Heh. It's not like you or I or Lerner can actually do that, now is it?

Lerner doesn't want to topple the banks, anyway, but rather to put them in a squeeze play, force them to renegotiate America's mortgages en masse, rather than giving the idea lip service as they keep on keepin' on...

You can vote for people who do and put political pressure on elected officials to do that. I'm tired of wackjobs acting like everything is an excuse for a revolution.

 

[Jhhnn]

So everyone who is rich did so by illegal insider trading??? You can't possibly think that.

I didn't say that, and you're a fool to infer that I did.

 

[Zebo]

More here

Investment banks - securities fraud
Mortgage lenders – widespread fraud
Rating agencies – junk science
CDO “managers” – crash test dummies & accomplices
Certain hedge funds – shorted CDOs they “managed”
Bond insurers – money for nothing
Regulators – poseurs and enablers

http://www.scribd.com/doc/44915502/FHFA1282010

 

[Zebo]

Actually, as servicers of mortgage trusts, the banks can completely renegotiate the terms of any mortgage, if it can be shown to be in the interests of the trust to do so. It's called loan modification. It's rarely in the interests of servicers to do so, however, so they don't.

Obama made it not in their interest to renego by giving them a guaranteed 25% MTM value and the house to sell.

Essentially banks are incentivized by Feds not to do modifications.

 

[bamacre]

I didn't say that, and you're a fool to infer that I did.

No, what you said was, "At this point, I'd offer that the wealthy are wealthier than ever because they have inside information and the means to manipulate the market." which is really just a bunch of overly-generalized ignorant tripe.

 

[Matt1970]

Horseshit. Even after the facts are out people are still clueless.

Let review what really went down instead of calling everyone else idiots.

1. Banks made loans they knew could not be paid back. Citibank's Chief underwriter tells us this when he testifies under oath that Citi knew "60% of loans were defective in 2006 and 80% defective in 2007." Defective means not worth a shit, junk, garbage gonna default in bankers lingo. This is fraud by inducement.
http://fcic.gov/hearings/pdfs/2010-0407-Bowen.pdf

2. But they did not care. Why? Because they could unload them by slapping AAA on them and blowing sunshine up peoples behind in the form of MBS to your pensions, 401k, pers and whatnot. When you sell garbage to someone intentionally concealing it's garbage that's fraud too.

3. Problem is people who bought all that trash and paid good money for it were not getting returns expected because they were trash. Bankers still held too many. So market started going crazy some firms fell apart and whatnot.


4. Banks threaten us with "tanks in the streets" and extort us for about 700 billion bucks.

5. They get about 700 billion dollars but they don't buy up bad paper they instead got more money to speculate with (buy DOW low, commodities or insider trading that is blowing up now).

6. Instead accounting board, FASB, is extorted by Obama to shore up the bad paper; Marking these loans which everyone garbage at whatever the banks wished, instead of at their actual value which is about 40% after lawyers, Realtor, fees, restoration to the property.

7. But all this hocus pocus does not make the problem go away, as the bad paper is still there and the losses are still real. Cash flow problems are kicking with people not paying for two years and with no intention of paying. Can't pretend forever.

8. So they start going to court either as servicer or holder to get cash. But they sure as shit can't show the original note it might be shown original W2 was altered by the banks etc etc etc. MBS's who have been trying to get original note have also been stiff armed for years now. And they will never show it if they can help it because they would be sued into the ground for #1 and #2 above. Not to mention a pattern of fraudulent conduct gets to racketeering. So they come empty handed just with their word. aka "lost note affidavit"

9. Banks start fraudulently robosigning for judges to see, sometimes dated after foreclosure date claiming they own loan or acting as servicer
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/...ions-have.html

There was also the 1977 Community Reinvestment Act Modified by Reagan and then Clinton. Many organization like Acorn forced banks into many of these bad loans through intimidation, protests and threats of legal action that would result in hefty fines. Acorn filed many law suits including a few with Obama as one of it's prosecuting Lawyers.

Also the massive influx of money from investers that drove the prices of these houses and morgages up.

 

[Matt1970]

I didn't say that, and you're a fool to infer that I did.

"I'd offer that the wealthy are wealthier than ever because they have inside information and the means to manipulate the market."

 

[Infohawk]

"I'd offer that the wealthy are wealthier than ever because they have inside information and the means to manipulate the market."

I wonder how Jhnnn is going to rant his way out of that one. LOL.

 

[Jhhnn]

There was also the 1977 Community Reinvestment Act Modified by Reagan and then Clinton. Many organization like Acorn forced banks into many of these bad loans through intimidation, protests and threats of legal action that would result in hefty fines. Acorn filed many law suits including a few with Obama as one of it's prosecuting Lawyers.

Also the massive influx of money from investers that drove the prices of these houses and morgages up.

The alleged role of the CRA in the housing bubble has been debunked many times, but you keep dragging out your misinformed opinion as if nary a contrary word had ever been said-

http://www.jchs.harvard.edu/publications/governmentprograms/n08-2_park.pdf

I'm sure the notion fits what you want to believe, but it's just not true, and has been heavily exploited by apologists for the Bush Admin and Wall St.

 

[Matt1970]

The alleged role of the CRA in the housing bubble has been debunked many times, but you keep dragging out your misinformed opinion as if nary a contrary word had ever been said-

http://www.jchs.harvard.edu/publications/governmentprograms/n08-2_park.pdf

I'm sure the notion fits what you want to believe, but it's just not true, and has been heavily exploited by apologists for the Bush Admin and Wall St.

This is right from your link.
"However, data provided by the
Home Mortgage Disclosure Act (HMDA) reveal that loans covered by the CRA accounted for
only a fraction of mortgage lending to lower-income borrowers and neighborhoods. This is
especially true of higher-priced, or subprime, mortgages.1 CRA assessment-area lending
accounted for only nine percent of higher-priced loans to lower-income borrowers and
neighborhoods, while independent mortgage companies accounted for the majority."

The pie chart also shows 31% of lower priced homes. So 31% of lower priced homes and 9% of higher priced homes were morgatged to people who couldn't afford them due to CRA. Ya, that shouldn't be a factor at all.

 

[IronWing]

I posed some questions in a very neutral manner...

Oh you did not. You made a troll post and are enjoying the smell of your own poo.

 

[IronWing]

This is right from your link.
"However, data provided by the
Home Mortgage Disclosure Act (HMDA) reveal that loans covered by the CRA accounted for
only a fraction of mortgage lending to lower-income borrowers and neighborhoods. This is
especially true of higher-priced, or subprime, mortgages.1 CRA assessment-area lending
accounted for only nine percent of higher-priced loans to lower-income borrowers and
neighborhoods, while independent mortgage companies accounted for the majority."

The pie chart also shows 31% of lower priced homes. So 31% of lower priced homes and 9% of higher priced homes were morgatged to people who couldn't afford them due to CRA. Ya, that shouldn't be a factor at all.

All you have to do is show a single federal regulation or law requiring banks to make loans to unqualified borrowers. No spin, no bullshit, post a link to any such regulation or law. The entire US Code and entire CFR are online and searchable.

 

[Zebo]

There was also the 1977 Community Reinvestment Act Modified by Reagan and then Clinton. Many organization like Acorn forced banks into many of these bad loans through intimidation, protests and threats of legal action that would result in hefty fines. Acorn filed many law suits including a few with Obama as one of it's prosecuting Lawyers.

Also the massive influx of money from investers that drove the prices of these houses and morgages up.

LOL They were doing no doc loans to anyone with a pulse because they knew they could unload them making money on front and back end. Then bet against them not paying. CRA had nothing to do with this. Bankers went so far and above anything CRA required. I know it's rightwing MO to blame the black people tho so I'm not surprised this is touted from the radicals. No reputable economist blames CRA.

 

[CycloWizard]

At this point, I'd offer that the wealthy are wealthier than ever because they have inside information and the means to manipulate the market. It's not like Joe Schmo can engage in the trading of synthetic derivatives, or has the resources to legally invest in hedge funds.

Attributing the complexity of mortgage documents to regulation is absurd- bankers love fine print, and have since long before there were any regs.

So none of that fine print is due to regulation? Your own statement even links the advent of fine print with the onset of regulation. Freudian slip? You simply can't accept that there are people out there better at managing their money than you are with yours. If you want to blame anyone or anything for the housing bubble, the owner of HGTV is a better place to start than "insider trading."

 

[CycloWizard]

Horseshit. Even after the facts are out people are still clueless.

Let review what really went down instead of calling everyone else idiots.

1. Banks made loans they knew could not be paid back. Citibank's Chief underwriter tells us this when he testifies under oath that Citi knew "60% of loans were defective in 2006 and 80% defective in 2007." Defective means not worth a shit, junk, garbage gonna default in bankers lingo. This is fraud by inducement.
http://fcic.gov/hearings/pdfs/2010-0407-Bowen.pdf

2. But they did not care. Why? Because they could unload them by slapping AAA on them and blowing sunshine up peoples behind in the form of MBS to your pensions, 401k, pers and whatnot. When you sell garbage to someone intentionally concealing it's garbage that's fraud too.

3. Problem is people who bought all that trash and paid good money for it were not getting returns expected because they were trash. Bankers still held too many. So market started going crazy some firms fell apart and whatnot.


4. Banks threaten us with "tanks in the streets" and extort us for about 700 billion bucks.

5. They get about 700 billion dollars but they don't buy up bad paper they instead got more money to speculate with (buy DOW low, commodities or insider trading that is blowing up now).

6. Instead accounting board, FASB, is extorted by Obama to shore up the bad paper; Marking these loans which everyone garbage at whatever the banks wished, instead of at their actual value which is about 40% after lawyers, Realtor, fees, restoration to the property.

7. But all this hocus pocus does not make the problem go away, as the bad paper is still there and the losses are still real. Cash flow problems are kicking with people not paying for two years and with no intention of paying. Can't pretend forever.

8. So they start going to court either as servicer or holder to get cash. But they sure as shit can't show the original note it might be shown original W2 was altered by the banks etc etc etc. MBS's who have been trying to get original note have also been stiff armed for years now. And they will never show it if they can help it because they would be sued into the ground for #1 and #2 above. Not to mention a pattern of fraudulent conduct gets to racketeering. So they come empty handed just with their word. aka "lost note affidavit"

9. Banks start fraudulently robosigning for judges to see, sometimes dated after foreclosure date claiming they own loan or acting as servicer
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/...ions-have.html

Great, but that has absolutely nothing to do with what I posted. Fraud is fraud is fraud. If our government was anything more than a steaming pile, it would have enforced the laws regarding fraud and this guy would be behind bars instead of testifying in front of congress. Instead, when the bet became too big, government wrote them a check to cover their losses. I wish I could find a casino that was as generous towards me... "Oh, you bet the farm on red and it was black? Here's a check to cover all of your losses and your next month's rent."

 

[Jhhnn]

This is right from your link.
"However, data provided by the
Home Mortgage Disclosure Act (HMDA) reveal that loans covered by the CRA accounted for
only a fraction of mortgage lending to lower-income borrowers and neighborhoods. This is
especially true of higher-priced, or subprime, mortgages.1 CRA assessment-area lending
accounted for only nine percent of higher-priced loans to lower-income borrowers and
neighborhoods, while independent mortgage companies accounted for the majority."

The pie chart also shows 31% of lower priced homes. So 31% of lower priced homes and 9% of higher priced homes were morgatged to people who couldn't afford them due to CRA. Ya, that shouldn't be a factor at all.

Your ability to be deliberately obtuse is staggering. 31% of lower priced homes as CRA "Prime Lending"- loans where the lenders exercised due diligence, and where buyers could actually afford the payments. The default rate on such loans is low, even when the buyers paid too much. Prime lending has little to do with the bubble or the crash. Even sub prime fixed interest 30 year notes had little to do with it.

I'll admit to being too general earlier. Let me re-phrase.

"At this point, I'd offer that the Banking elite and their cronies are wealthier than ever because they have inside information and the means to manipulate the market. "

Better?

Here's how it worked, and why deregulated bankers chose to kill their own corporate steeds- enormous rewards for greed and recklessness-

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2011/03/23/a-good-example-of-how-not-to-run-a-bank.aspx