Stephen King: Tax Me, for F@%&’s Sake!

[LunarRay]

Oh, I see. Giving money to the poor is no longer called Welfare, it's now called fiscal policy. BTW, you assuming I don't like the poor is asinine, I just know that throwing a little money at them is a trap.

We could explore this further but I fear it would be wasting both of our time.... Moonbeam's argument regarding 'defective mind condition' is appreciated but I'd add the following:

There is a theory called Cognitive Dissonance. In Social Psychology it proposes that folks have a motivational drive to reduce or be rid of the dissonance bit. They do this by altering their existing cognitions or providing new ones or changing the relative importance of some of the dissonant elements so they have a consistent belief condition or system of belief.

I figure folks do the above in their subconscious state because rationally conscious thinking folks ought to be able to recognize reality as it presents itself and there in lies the rub... You recognize terms but they conflict with your belief system so you MUST alter Welfare or Fiscal Policy to mean what you need it to mean to maintain equilibrium within... or You'll Explode...

 

[Bowfinger]

They are not talking points. The poor pay no income tax, so you need to show me how someone who doesn't pay income tax is effected by someone else's tax rate? Just because my neighbor got a bigger chunk on thier own money back from the Government does not make me poor.

Give it another try Sparky. I didn't say poor, I said middle class -- i.e., the working class that tend to pay at the highest tax rates since their money comes from earned income, not capital gains. Moreover, I didn't suggest tax rates are the only factor leading to this growing concentration of wealth. They are one of the factors, however.

Oh, and yeah they are talking points. You may earnestly believe them, but they are talking points nonetheless. They do not match reality, as shown by actual data.

 

[Matt1970]

We could explore this further but I fear it would be wasting both of our time.... Moonbeam's argument regarding 'defective mind condition' is appreciated but I'd add the following:

There is a theory called Cognitive Dissonance. In Social Psychology it proposes that folks have a motivational drive to reduce or be rid of the dissonance bit. They do this by altering their existing cognitions or providing new ones or changing the relative importance of some of the dissonant elements so they have a consistent belief condition or system of belief.

I figure folks do the above in their subconscious state because rationally conscious thinking folks ought to be able to recognize reality as it presents itself and there in lies the rub... You recognize terms but they conflict with your belief system so you MUST alter Welfare or Fiscal Policy to mean what you need it to mean to maintain equilibrium within... or You'll Explode...

That's eaxctly what you are doing when you think just dishing out governtment checks does anything but create more dependency.

 

[Matt1970]

Give it another try Sparky. I didn't say poor, I said middle class -- i.e., the working class that tend to pay at the highest tax rates since their money comes from earned income, not capital gains. Moreover, I didn't suggest tax rates are the only factor leading to this growing concentration of wealth. They are one of the factors, however.

Oh, and yeah they are talking points. You may earnestly believe them, but they are talking points nonetheless. They do not match reality, as shown by actual data.

Well seeing as how the middle class taxes got cut as well, you are going to have to try again there Skippy.

 

[Steeplerot]

That's eaxctly what you are doing when you think just dishing out governtment checks does anything but create more dependency.

So when your boss pays your check you are you dependent on him? Is he your master? Help me out here, I am looking for a real life/real world psychology here of this conservative meme you all hold so dear to your ideology that everyone is out to get you.

 

[Matt1970]

So when your boss pays your check you are you dependent on him? Is he your master? Help me out here, I am looking for a real life/real world psychology here of this conservative meme you all hold so dear to your ideology that everyone is out to get you.

Well maybe, if I was collecting a check at the moment. I will take that over a Dictator any day.

 

[Bowfinger]

Well seeing as how the middle class taxes got cut as well, you are going to have to try again there Skippy.

No, I'm really not. You have trouble with reading comprehension, don't you? There's not a single word I said to suggest there weren't modest tax cuts for the middle class. I did point out, quite factually, that they take limited advantage of the preferential rates for investment income, but that's it. So, the question for you is whether you can actually address anything I said or are you just going to continue sputtering one mindless talking point after another? It's a rhetorical question, by the way. I know the answer.

 

[cybrsage]

What off-point item? Please delineate.

Here you go:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=33374077#post33374077

Here is where you pretend that one man's hypocrisy of demandings others be forced to do what he is unwilling to do on his own means one person paying more fixes everything.

You are not very good at trying to pretend you did not say something. You should study some of the masters, the forum has quite a few. You suck pretty bad at it right now.

 

[Jhhnn]

The best part of the usual right wing ravings are based upon false assumptions about the availability of jobs and the interdependency of us all in the economy.

The whole dependency on the govt rant is based on the false assumption that there are, indeed, enough jobs for everybody to have one who needs one. That's patently false even in the best of times. People only depend on the govt when they can't depend on employers, who are increasingly undependable in a macro sense. Lifetime employment has largely become a thing of the past, and extended periods of joblessness much more common. Pensions have become virtually non-existent other than in govt or increasingly scarce union employment.

That's due in no small part to the efforts of the people at the tippy-top. Increased financialization, automation & offshoring all take a toll on the availability of work. Mitt didn't make his fortune creating jobs, at all, but rather from destroying them, and from looting the coffers of institutional investors who bought bonds in the companies he crippled & destroyed. Institutional investors being pension funds & mutual funds in everybody's 401k plans.

Why run a company for profit when you can make more running it into the ground & paying yourself special dividends from borrowed money? That's what private equity firms do, by and large.

The other side of it is that we all depend on other people to spend money, unless we're part of that lootocracy. Middle and working class people spend in proportion to their incomes, which isn't true of the uber rich, at all. They spend but a small part of their incomes, "invest" the rest in what are increasingly mere financialization rather than any sort of productive means. It's largely based on loaning money to the rest of us instead of paying us more. The bigger their share, the less for the rest of us, and their share has doubled over the last 30 years, the share of the top .01% having done much, much better than that.

 

[Icepick]

This was an enjoyable article and I'm pleasantly surprised that Stephen King shares my views on the topic almost to the letter.

If you're going to get rich via the infrastructure of America then you are obligated to pony up to support that infrastructure. Stop whining about having to pay your 18% or less tax rate.

 

[cybrsage]

If you've taken a cross country trip you've probably noticed that *a lot* of the traffic is made up of large trucks carrying goods or making their way to pick up goods. Those trucks also put way more wear and tear on the highway system than passenger vehicles.

Gas taxes pay for the roads. Trucks use more gas, they pay more taxes.

 

[Matt1970]

No, I'm really not. You have trouble with reading comprehension, don't you? There's not a single word I said to suggest there weren't modest tax cuts for the middle class. I did point out, quite factually, that they take limited advantage of the preferential rates for investment income, but that's it. So, the question for you is whether you can actually address anything I said or are you just going to continue sputtering one mindless talking point after another? It's a rhetorical question, by the way. I know the answer.

Well then what exactly are you attributing the disparity in wealth to? If it is tax cuts for the rich, like 99% of Liberals blame it on, then we have already established that the middle class and lower classes had thier income taxes cut as well. It's not like the middle class had theirs raised to pay the difference. If it's them "Hoarding" their money then typicly that meansit is in the banking system for others to use or invested in other companies because they aren't stuffing it into their matresses.

The simple fact is that wealth has been dramatically shifted from the middle class to the elite few over the last few decades. Fact. So however much the right parrots the theoretical "it's not a zero-sum game," the data shows that's how it's been working in practice.

If the rich are paying less, and the middle class are paying less, and the poor probably didn't pay any to begin with, where are the rich taking it from?

 

[cybrsage]

This was an enjoyable article and I'm pleasantly surprised that Stephen King shares my views on the topic almost to the letter.

If you're going to get rich via the infrastructure of America then you are obligated to pony up to support that infrastructure. Stop whining about having to pay your 18% or less tax rate.

He already CAN pay more. He just refuses to do so unless everyone else is forced to do it. The roads are a red herring...they are paid by gas taxes.

 

[Jhhnn]

He already CAN pay more. He just refuses to do so unless everyone else is forced to do it. The roads are a red herring...they are paid by gas taxes.

No- your argument is a red herring, one of the usual. If King pays more, it won't make any difference, whereas if all the wealthy pay more, it will. He's calling for much the same thing as the Catholic Bishops- shared sacrifice by all Americans, and there's no reason other than ideological stupidity that those most capable of painless sacrifice shouldn't make some themselves, for the good of the country.

Paying more in taxes won't crimp the lifestyles of the uber rich in the slightest, because they actually spend only a small part of their enormous incomes. The rest they put into pyramid schemes that destabilize the whole economy. So it's a win-win proposition for the vast majority of us, and them too, when they get over their short sighted greed.

 

[cybrsage]

No- your argument is a red herring, one of the usual. If King pays more, it won't make any difference, whereas if all the wealthy pay more, it will.

Wow, do you actually understand my point and are pretending you are not, or are you actually so stupid that you do not understand it? I cannot believe anyone could be that stupid, so I believe you are pretending to not understand it.

Anyone who demands others be forced to do what they could be already doing but refuse to do makes that person a hypocrit.

Are you still going to pretend you do not understand this?

 

[jackstar7]

Wow, do you actually understand my point and are pretending you are not, or are you actually so stupid that you do not understand it? I cannot believe anyone could be that stupid, so I believe you are pretending to not understand it.

Anyone who demands others be forced to do what they could be already doing but refuse to do makes that person a hypocrit.

Are you still going to pretend you do not understand this?

Intellectual dishonesty at its most depressing.

 

[Dulanic]

This was an enjoyable article and I'm pleasantly surprised that Stephen King shares my views on the topic almost to the letter.

If you're going to get rich via the infrastructure of America then you are obligated to pony up to support that infrastructure. Stop whining about having to pay your 18% or less tax rate.

We both for the most part agree with a /gasp rich person 🙂

 

[cybrsage]

Intellectual dishonesty at its most depressing.

Your should request your mind back, you are not to donate it to science until AFTER you have died.

 

[jackstar7]

Your should request your mind back, you are not to donate it to science until AFTER you have died.

Nicely done.

Doesn't this make you a 'hypocrit'?

 

[Jhhnn]

Intellectual dishonesty at its most depressing.

God, yes.

Cybertroll basically offers the same sad song and dance as usual- that taxes should be voluntary, rather than compulsory, completely ignoring the small actor vs large actor effect of raising taxes on a group, and also ignores human nature. If a sufficient number of people were to voluntarily give more, then the greediest among us would claim that since the govt already has enough money to be funded in the manner they want, that their mandatory taxes should be lowered. They'll seek a free ride.

He also ignores the fact that we don't know enough about King's situation to say that he employs tax avoidance strategies, at all, whereas it's widely known that very wealthy people generally do, human nature being what it is and their need for all their income non-existent. They'll shelter as much as possible beyond that required to support their lifestyles using a variety of methods. When you're rich enough, buying Repub congress critters & paying think tanks to formulate propaganda spoon fed to the gullible are among those strategies.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/11/egalitarianism

http://www.thepeoplesview.net/2012/04/absurdity-of-voluntary-taxation-for.html

I'm not counting on Cybertroll to read any of that- he already has his soundbites ingested & ready for regurgitation.

Right wing puke is, of course, the stinkingest kind...

 

[drebo]

Oh great, so now the government gets to decide what a luxury is or isnt? I thought conservatives wanted government to have less power?

You must not live in a state with sales tax. Or, if you do, you're really, really stupid.

See, most necessities (unprepared food, services) are tax free. That means that if a poor person buys food, they pay no sales tax. However, if that same poor person bought a TV or a pair of shoes, they WOULD pay sales tax...the same as anyone else. Likewise, if a poor person gets their hair cut, they don't pay tax...the same as a rich person getting their hair cut. But, if a poor person buys a $150 dye job or weave, that's a product and IS taxed.

It's simple. Things necessary to survive (food, shelter, water) are tax free. Things not necessary to survive (a TV, $300 Jordans, a weave) are not. Thus, if a poor person doesn't want to pay any taxes or avoid paying more in taxes than they'd like, they can just not buy things they can't really afford. Like the $5000 rims on their $50000 Escalades while their kids get free lunch and breakfast at school.

Also, welfare should be in kind only.

 

[drebo]

We both for the most part agree with a /gasp rich person 🙂

It's easy for him (or any other rich person) to say it. (it's apparently extremely difficult for any of them to actually DO it, though)

It's much more difficult for someone who makes $50k/yr and has 3 kids to agree that he should pay more than the 10% he already pays.

 

[werepossum]

Raising taxes needs to be coupled with spending decreases as well.

Simply increasing revenue or cutting spending won't solve the problem. We need to do both and start paying down this ridiculous debt before kids read about the United States in history books 100 years from now.

Don't be silly. Kids won't be able to read in a hundred years. Just chart our public education system results.

Seriously, you are absolutely right. I'm all for higher taxes on everyone and lower payola for everyone - just as soon as government demonstrates that it can actually spend 5% or more less than the year before. Give me three years of that and I'll be for raising taxes beyond the pre-Bush tax cut levels. Until then, give D.C. 5% more and they'll spend 10% or 15% more no matter which party is in charge of which part - and 30% more if one party has it all.

 

[werepossum]

We could explore this further but I fear it would be wasting both of our time.... Moonbeam's argument regarding 'defective mind condition' is appreciated but I'd add the following:

There is a theory called Cognitive Dissonance. In Social Psychology it proposes that folks have a motivational drive to reduce or be rid of the dissonance bit. They do this by altering their existing cognitions or providing new ones or changing the relative importance of some of the dissonant elements so they have a consistent belief condition or system of belief.

I figure folks do the above in their subconscious state because rationally conscious thinking folks ought to be able to recognize reality as it presents itself and there in lies the rub... You recognize terms but they conflict with your belief system so you MUST alter Welfare or Fiscal Policy to mean what you need it to mean to maintain equilibrium within... or You'll Explode...

I simply can't believe that proggies continually spout off about Cognitive Dissonance in the same posts that they claim conservatives are mentally defective and then demand that we fund your health care, education, child care, broad band, cell phones, or whatever your latest appetite of the moment. No one can be THAT perfectly stupid; you guys have to secretly be trolling conservatives out to make progressives look even dumber than usual.

Claim conservatives are mentally defective, demand that we support you, AND bring up Cognitive Dissonance? I call shens.

 

[LunarRay]

I simply can't believe that proggies continually spout off about Cognitive Dissonance in the same posts that they claim conservatives are mentally defective and then demand that we fund your health care, education, child care, broad band, cell phones, or whatever your latest appetite of the moment. No one can be THAT perfectly stupid; you guys have to secretly be trolling conservatives out to make progressives look even dumber than usual.

Claim conservatives are mentally defective, demand that we support you, AND bring up Cognitive Dissonance? I call shens.

😀😀

Yup! We are a motley crew... Hell bent on bringing about communism... Only makes sense, we've nothing much to loose while the Right Rich have the enormity of their reality to loose... hehehehehe.

Why support a system that benefits the few at the expense of the many?

I think everyone should earn the same amount regardless of their occupation and be taxed the same. Passion for what they do and their ability to do it are the only motivators. One class of people all rich or poor depending on how you see it... but who cares we'd be happy, no?

()🙂