Steam on Linux: Return of OpenGL?

[Obsoleet]

I've always been very interested in OpenGL and preferred its use over DirectX, for obvious reasons. Portability and platform independence being front and center. With *Steam coming to Linux in 2012 according to Gabe Newell, I would assume OpenGL will be making a comeback.

Titles like Rage continually prove cutting edge games games can be done with OpenGL. Do you think this is a big win for OpenGL? Does this score a big win for idtech5 as well? If they chose to license it out instead of keeping it for a competitive advantage, I'd assume Steam on Linux/Mac/Windows would make idtech far more attractive than the competing DirectX implementations.

Outside of the relative ease of finding talent to code a Direct3D game, I'm always baffled at the number of companies that decide to avoid OGL. Especially the ones that aren't showcasing the latest and greatest features of DX11 (or whatever is latest at the time). Perhaps the Mac and Linux gaming communities are much smaller, but theres always the chicken and then the egg.

I for one would love to see OGL make a comeback. Interested in your biased thoughts.

*Source: http://www.geek.com/articles/games/steam-for-linux-will-launch-in-2012-2012065/
THIS THREAD PROUDLY POSTED FROM LINUX

 

[ShintaiDK]

They mainly run DirectX in Wine.

OpenGL killed itself.

 

[ViRGE]

Source already uses OpenGL on Mac OS X, which is a far bigger market than Linux will ever be. It hasn't done squat for OpenGL.

 

[Fox5]

OpenGL doesn't run natively on Windows anymore, it's not included with the default out of box windows drivers (for any cards), so that would create support issues for the masses.

 

[Nintendesert]

We're more likely to get Glide back than OpenGL make any significant comebacks.

 

[Tuna-Fish]

OpenGL doesn't run natively on Windows anymore, it's not included with the default out of box windows drivers (for any cards

Umm, yes it is? Plenty of games are OGL still, and they wouldn't run if OGL wasn't included.


The fundamental problem with OGL is that it has stubbornly refused to move with the times. I honestly thing that all it needs for a renaissance of use is one good version that ditches all backcompat ^* and leapfrogs DX in correctly modeling new cards. Something like proper multithreaded state, with immutable data objects, and no strict ordering of operations without using barriers.


^* I am talking about the standard here, not the implementation. If there was an OGL 5.0 that ditched all backcompat, it wouldn't mean that the old stuff stops working, just that if you import OGL5, you cannot use any of the old stuff in your code.

 

[peonyu]

Umm, yes it is? Plenty of games are OGL still, and they wouldn't run if OGL wasn't included.


The fundamental problem with OGL is that it has stubbornly refused to move with the times. I honestly thing that all it needs for a renaissance of use is one good version that ditches all backcompat ^* and leapfrogs DX in correctly modeling new cards. Something like proper multithreaded state, with immutable data objects, and no strict ordering of operations without using barriers.


^* I am talking about the standard here, not the implementation. If there was an OGL 5.0 that ditched all backcompat, it wouldn't mean that the old stuff stops working, just that if you import OGL5, you cannot use any of the old stuff in your code.

I agree. But then again its hard to compete against DirectX when the folks behind that tech are being paid to create it, update it, and make it the best. Whereas OpenGL is a open specification and there is hardly as much profit [let alone motivation] to be found there.

 

[zokudu]

There's already 375 steam "games" (Some are DLC etc but you get the idea) that run on Macs that should (theoretically) work with Linux as soon as Steam for Linux releases.

I think that's a decent start.

http://store.steampowered.com/search/?os=mac&category1=998

 

[ViRGE]

There's already 375 steam "games" (Some are DLC etc but you get the idea) that run on Macs that should (theoretically) work with Linux as soon as Steam for Linux releases.

I think that's a decent start.

http://store.steampowered.com/search/?os=mac&category1=998

There are a lot of differences between Mac OS X and Linux even if the rendering API is the same. Audio, input, and several other things are different between the two. It's easier than porting to the Mac, but that doesn't make it easy.

 

[Obsoleet]

OpenGLs fate partially lies with how well Mac gaming does. If Mac depends on OGL then they have a vested interest in their platform being decent. While the rendering is only "one part" of a game, it's definitely a big one. I'd rather find a physics/control/audio engine than be locked in DX. You could use an engine like idtech4 or HPL2 (Amnesia Dark Descent). Cafu is a (free) complete engine, like idtech, that avoids all vendor specific libraries.

I'd take Rage's graphics if that's the level that the outdated OGL is at, and have a better crossplatform engine to work with. Not to mention, the free idtech4 (Doom3) engine- not too shabby for a developer to work with even today. I still miss QuakeWars.

All the Mac games available on Steam do bode well for Linux.
Now we'll see if Steambox is Linux based, and what that does for OGL.

 

[lamedude]

If there was an OGL 5.0 that ditched all backcompat, it wouldn't mean that the old stuff stops working, just that if you import OGL5, you cannot use any of the old stuff in your code.

Didn't they already do that?

 

[Bateluer]

Source already uses OpenGL on Mac OS X, which is a far bigger market than Linux will ever be. It hasn't done squat for OpenGL.

I'd disagree. The games available for Macs are usually more casual and indie, not exactly titles that would drive OGL's best features. With the limited hardware choices that Apple provides, you're not going to get the greatest video cards either. Even the Mac App Store's games are usually overpriced and almost never go on sale. Mac users just usually aren't gamers.

On Linux, many users do enjoy games, whether through Wine or through a dual boot. Plus, a Linux user can actually stick in a high end, modern video card, and have it mostly work.

Obviously, Linux gaming is extremely limited, but mostly because its an afterthought with any development. Game titles, hardware drivers, game clients, etc, all come months after the Windows versions.

If I'm not mistaken, there's a number of fed up users on these boards where gaming is the only thing holding them to Windows too.

 

[Obsoleet]

Windows is my primary, but that has been changing over the years. All the MS fanboys keep dismissing the impending failure of Windows8 by saying they'll correct the issue in Windows9.
I'm not quite as confident in Microsoft's invulnerability, and unsure if MS can keep repeating Bob, Me and Vista over and over again. Google and Apple have proven they aren't your daddy's OS/2. Every misstep is going to be punished by A&G. There's OSX/Ubuntu/ChromeOS/other Linux distros and with a few exceptions they're all fairly popular.

If legacy games like TF2/L4D are coming to Linux, that means going forward we're probably going to see more investment in driver development and 1st rate titles released on Linux alongside OSX/Windows.

 

[Dark Shroud]

Most of Vista's big problems were not even MS's fault they were Nvidia and a few other companies that did nothing until the very last minute with drivers and software. Dell & Lexmark can be added to that list of shame.

Enterprise is going to be using Win7 for sometime and most companies not on Win7 aren't going to leap frog Win7 currently do to software compatibility.

Honestly I don't care for the Win8 Metro interface, I had set something like that up over a year ago using rainmeter and shut it off after a day. But I know plenty of people will like it on the desktop for simplicity. And Win8's underpinnings are better than Win7, it's just the interface that's the problem.

I know I'll be running Win8 when I buy a MS surface. I'll probably get a WP8 handset as well.

 

[Fox5]

Umm, yes it is? Plenty of games are OGL still, and they wouldn't run if OGL wasn't included.


The fundamental problem with OGL is that it has stubbornly refused to move with the times. I honestly thing that all it needs for a renaissance of use is one good version that ditches all backcompat ^* and leapfrogs DX in correctly modeling new cards. Something like proper multithreaded state, with immutable data objects, and no strict ordering of operations without using barriers.


^* I am talking about the standard here, not the implementation. If there was an OGL 5.0 that ditched all backcompat, it wouldn't mean that the old stuff stops working, just that if you import OGL5, you cannot use any of the old stuff in your code.

Plenty of games run OpenGL. They won't run out of the box on windows. You need to download the drivers from ati, nvidia, or intel to have opengl on your windows box. The default windows update drivers to not include opengl, ergo opengl does not wor out of the box.

 

[Obsoleet]

BOOM
http://www.engadget.com/2012/07/16/valve-makes-steam-for-linux-official/

Let the forces of Mac + Linux unite and finally make a comeback against DirectX. Apple is going to be the big push behind this, but it's going to benefit the Linux gaming scene tremendously.

Carmack has done a lot for OGL staying alive and relevant, and I can't wait to see what id and Valve bring to the Mac/Linux world. I for one am cheering for it.

 

[smartpatrol]

OSX gaining marketshare will do more for OpenGL than Steam on Linux, IMO. But it's still exciting to see Linux finally get some support from a gaming juggernaut like Valve.

BTW I've been playing this year's biggest PC game, Diablo III, on an iMac.

 

[Obsoleet]

OSX gaining marketshare will do more for OpenGL than Steam on Linux, IMO. But it's still exciting to see Linux finally get some support from a gaming juggernaut like Valve.

BTW I've been playing this year's biggest PC game, Diablo III, on an iMac.

Yup you're right. And there's nothing wrong with gaming on an iMac.
Those of us who prefer to see Linux gaming grow have a strong ally in Apple. With Apple's influence in desktop and mobile, OpenGL has increasingly gotten more love. PS3 doesn't hurt either with its implementation.

Looking at games like Torchlight and Rage (Rage itself probably playing a major role in squashing Windows OGL driver bug issues for everyone else), it's to the point even today, where I wouldn't start a new project on DX.

Once Valve gets done putting Source on Ubuntu, all the games I play will be available there, barring League of Legends.

 

[2is]

Sorry theres no way Linux is going to revive OGL. That's laughable.

 

[Obsoleet]

Sorry theres no way Linux is going to revive OGL. That's laughable.

How so when OGL doesn't need reviving. It's stronger than ever.
In the mobile space it's the standard, period. On Mac and Linux, it's the standard.

OGL doesn't need any help, it holds the present and future. We just need more OGL games for desktop PCs.

 

[(sic)Klown12]

OGL doesn't need any help, it holds the present and future. We just need more OGL games for desktop PCs.

OpenGL needs the Kronos group to stop striving to for mere feature parity with DirectX and return to innovating. Once/if that happens , then we can talk about it making a comeback to the desktop.

 

[ViRGE]

How so when OGL doesn't need reviving. It's stronger than ever.
In the mobile space it's the standard, period. On Mac and Linux, it's the standard.

OGL doesn't need any help, it holds the present and future. We just need more OGL games for desktop PCs.

Respectfully, OpenGL ES (which is what's on mobile) has about as much to do with mainline OpenGL as BSD has to do with Linux. Mainline OpenGL has never been as dead as it is now, with only one major OpenGL game released in the last year. OpenGL needs all the help it can get, because if no one is using it on Windows then it basically ceases to matter. It would be reduced to the API developers port their rendering code over to at the same time as they port their audio code, input code, etc to the target OS's preferred implementation.

OpenGL needs the Kronos group to stop striving to for mere feature parity with DirectX and return to innovating. Once/if that happens , then we can talk about it making a comeback to the desktop.

Not only that, OpenGL needs the Kronos group to go tell the CAD vendors to take a hike. OpenGL as a project shot itself in the foot when they didn't do a legacy cleanup with OpenGL 3.0.

 

[2is]

How so when OGL doesn't need reviving. It's stronger than ever.

I would assume OpenGL will be making a comeback

OGL doesn't need any help

We just need more OGL games for desktop PCs.

I can see you've thought this through very well.

 

[Rifter]

Return from where? open GL has not gone anywhere, mobile gaming makes more money than PC gaming and all mobile gaming is open GL. So if you take a look at gaming as a whole open GL is already ahead of direct X.

That said the more games that work with linux the better, the sooner i can ditch windows the better.

 

[Olikan]

didn't playstation 3 use OpenGL?