What I like about it is the mirrorcast stuff. I have my way over specced computer doing my gaming, some regular workstation work, and doing some limited VM hosting server stuff. So it would be nice to get a pc that's very limited (like the cheapest steam box) using just an igp (like Kaveri or Richland) to put near my TV, running basically only SteamOS and streaming the game from my desktop. Obviously anything competitive I would sit at my main computer. But it would be nice to get the console experience with all of the SP games I have on my Steam backlog.
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Steam Machines
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Nintendesert
Diamond Member
That's what really stuck out to me with these unveilings. They are really overpriced for what they are. The ones relatively affordable, yet still more expensive than consoles, are really underpowered.
They have to do better if they want to sell these and change the market.
smackababy
Lifer
These are just the early adopter boxes though. I am sure the price will drop if there is actual interest.
With consoles, the companies like MS, Sony, and Nintendo don't have to make a large profit on the boxes themselves. They get a licensing fee for every game sold on that platform. The same wouldn't be true with these 3rd party SteamBoxes. The companies making them have to make all their profit on the box itself. Valve is the one raking in the money on the software used on it (and it is a lot; 30% is huge).
cmdrdredd
Lifer
They expect a certain percentage of buyers to stream games from their PC in the other room I think. Personally I don't like that much except in cases where you don't need to hog the TV to play your game.
Doppel
Lifer
Based on what I saw of the controller it seems in practice to be about as awful as I expected.
If it turns out that with practice this thing is good enough to let a person replace the keyboard/mouse and do it well--way better than current controllers--heck, I'd almost buy one myself. It seems like that absolutely won't be the case, not surprisingly. The mouse is awesome for FPS and just extremely hard to replicate in a controller.
smackababy
Lifer
One of the large problems I have is that the dual touch pads eliminate completely genres of games that rely on input form controllers. Fighting games, platformers, etc would be awful with a mouse or touch pad. Had they included on analog stick and a touch pad on the other side, it would have been a lot better IMO.
PeeluckyDuckee
Diamond Member
Steambox seems to want to build on their existing momentum and user base, but the niche market they are trying to doesn't appeal to casual PS3/PC gamer as myself. Perhaps I'm not their target market, but I don't see where the angle and the value is.
Skel
Diamond Member
What's really interesting to me is now they're out (well at least not just a concept, but something we can look at) all the people on this forum that argued that these were going to destroy the PS/Xbox console market are silent. I'm sure there are a few people still hoping for it, but a few months ago I remember arguing with quite a few people about it. So much for the future I guess...
cmdrdredd
Lifer
Well, that was when people thought you were going to get a GTX 680 level of GPU in the box for $600 and they'd take a loss or there would be a set hardware standard and games would default to that standard of graphics. Neither happened. Geforce experience can help with the latter though, but it is a second piece of software.
sandorski
No Lifer
This seems to be either an HTPC or real niche Gaming PC.
What I wonder about is how the Linux part is going to work? Is it going to require User interaction to make it work or will it simply work out of the box keeping track of Drivers and what not in the background?
If someone buys one of these then suddenly finds out they need to figure out how to get Linux compile a driver or something, there's going to be a shitload of furious people. This becomes even more an issue if someone decides to Upgrade a piece of their hardware.
I have serious doubts that this is going to be successful. I suspect mostly that a segment of PC Gamers will use SteamOS on some custom build, but few will ever buy a SteamBox. Maybe Console Gamers might want one for some PC Gaming, but they'll be likely going for the $500 boxes only.
What I wonder about is how the Linux part is going to work? Is it going to require User interaction to make it work or will it simply work out of the box keeping track of Drivers and what not in the background?
If someone buys one of these then suddenly finds out they need to figure out how to get Linux compile a driver or something, there's going to be a shitload of furious people. This becomes even more an issue if someone decides to Upgrade a piece of their hardware.
I have serious doubts that this is going to be successful. I suspect mostly that a segment of PC Gamers will use SteamOS on some custom build, but few will ever buy a SteamBox. Maybe Console Gamers might want one for some PC Gaming, but they'll be likely going for the $500 boxes only.
The drivers will be almost certainly working automatically in the background.
That's actually basically what happens now with quite a few linux distributions - you have bundled versions of the closed source drivers that are included as standard and update via the main update tool.
When that works, it seems to work nicely. More smoothly than Windows actually because all your updates for everything go through one tool and people are testing many of the more plausible software combinations to make sure they get along reasonably.
The issue - asides from the obvious one of the quality of said drivers - has previously been the lag in getting those drivers up to date. Plenty of good reasons for this I imagine but it hasn't been ideal.
It wasn't until Mint16 (Oct/Nov this year) that steam on my 7850 was working out of the box. Previously I had to rip the old drivers out and get a new version from AMD. That was possible but a pain and didn't leave the system ideally stable either.
Obviously SteamOS is going to have to be very much more up to date about this sort of thing to work well. That should be achievable. In fact this promises to be the major current attraction of this (or distributions derived from it) vs the currently main stream desktop ones.
It'll definitely be a major test how fast they can get drivers out, tested and included for the 20nm GPUs. Also how well work in comparison to windows.
(The other sometimes scary piece of hardware is wireless networking.).
That's actually basically what happens now with quite a few linux distributions - you have bundled versions of the closed source drivers that are included as standard and update via the main update tool.
When that works, it seems to work nicely. More smoothly than Windows actually because all your updates for everything go through one tool and people are testing many of the more plausible software combinations to make sure they get along reasonably.
The issue - asides from the obvious one of the quality of said drivers - has previously been the lag in getting those drivers up to date. Plenty of good reasons for this I imagine but it hasn't been ideal.
It wasn't until Mint16 (Oct/Nov this year) that steam on my 7850 was working out of the box. Previously I had to rip the old drivers out and get a new version from AMD. That was possible but a pain and didn't leave the system ideally stable either.
Obviously SteamOS is going to have to be very much more up to date about this sort of thing to work well. That should be achievable. In fact this promises to be the major current attraction of this (or distributions derived from it) vs the currently main stream desktop ones.
It'll definitely be a major test how fast they can get drivers out, tested and included for the 20nm GPUs. Also how well work in comparison to windows.
(The other sometimes scary piece of hardware is wireless networking.).
Doppel
Lifer
A platformer would be a hideous experience with this, by the looks of it. It's like playing games on the ipad with the virtual joystick. I just refuse. I know this is very slightly better with the ridges on the controller, but the essential problem exists.
gorcorps
aka Brandon
I think they were trying to be different, but different doesn't always mean good. It makes you wonder if the folks who designed this controller actually use it themselves. I'm sure we'll never hear about it, but it would be interesting to know if they like their own creation enough to choose that over a 360 pad or something. If they actually use it then I'd be almost convinced I'd just have to get used to it.
Well the beta testers obviously have of course - and it is due to be revised a little. Also the game makers putting controller support in.
So, since Valve tend to listen, it shouldn't be randomly terrible. They had to be different because they're trying to get stuff like Civ, Rome etc working plausibly well when using it. That isn't easy.
So, since Valve tend to listen, it shouldn't be randomly terrible. They had to be different because they're trying to get stuff like Civ, Rome etc working plausibly well when using it. That isn't easy.
Nintendesert
Diamond Member
I'm a little curious as to what Valve has a reputation for listening on. Surely not HL3 and not on game refunds...
I think they do whatever they want and we're just along for the ride.
I think they do whatever they want and we're just along for the ride.
smackababy
Lifer
It is entirely easy. You have one joystick for the left hand (which can function as a WASD type input) and you have a track pad like they have for the right hand (which can function almost identical to a trackball mouse). Thus, you get the precision of a mouse while still having the precision of a joystick for games that demand that type of input.
Even in mouse driven games, using two mice is stupid. Nobody does that on PC, thus the two track pads are an awful idea.
And Valve doesn't tend to listen.
Atomic Playboy
Lifer
Something else that occurred to me. One of the most common refrains of the glorious PC master gaming race is the ability to mod games. It seems like that would be severely diminished in a box running a custom Steam OS. I know Steam is pushing the mod workshop as a more automated way to install custom mods, but what about injectors like ENB or SweetFX? Are those even supported by the Steam workshop right now? Skyrim Script Extender isn't, and that was required for some of the major Skyrim overhaul mods. Granted, modding is usually somewhat of a hassle, which already goes against the idea of trying to simplify things like a console does, but whenever someone talks about how great PC games look next to their console counterparts, invariably they're including mods. I could see someone buying a Steam Machine then getting pissed that their game looks nothing like Gioknight's screenshots.
Actually, that's the fundamental difference between consoles and PCs; convenience. Consoles sacrifice customizability for convenience, while PCs offer nearly unlimited customizability at the expense of a "plug in and go" experience. Trying to bridge that gap in the way the Steam Machine does is just exposing the flaws of both systems; it's less convenient than a traditional console and less customizable than a traditional gaming PC. Where's the market for that?
Actually, that's the fundamental difference between consoles and PCs; convenience. Consoles sacrifice customizability for convenience, while PCs offer nearly unlimited customizability at the expense of a "plug in and go" experience. Trying to bridge that gap in the way the Steam Machine does is just exposing the flaws of both systems; it's less convenient than a traditional console and less customizable than a traditional gaming PC. Where's the market for that?
Doppel
Lifer
It's easy to replicate the gross movement, but not the fine; a trackball is much less precise than a mouse. Whether it's a pad, trackball, or stick, a thumb simply cannot achieve the accurate movement that a mouse can, which lets you go from hand movement down to fingertips. It's (mouse) really a perfect interface.
zerocool84
Lifer
I love Steam, I love Valve, but Steam Machines do nothing for me. I'm wanting to do major upgrades to my computer this year as its been three years since I've upgraded and I'm not even considering these. This does nothing to make it easier for the consumer, they still have too many choices for what to get. These are just pretty cases with a proprietary OS that barely plays any games.
if they can somehow make a steam machine cheaper then purchasing all parts seperately, im on board
an imac!! lol
Nintendesert
Diamond Member
Are there RF Xbox controllers? Just run an HDMI cable and use an RF controller and it's living room gaming!
I've tried to game on a projector thinking it would be awesome, but I get used to the 120hz monitor I game on. It was pretty painful. I can see the appeal, but the problem with SteamOS gaming is if you're playing BF4 won't you be playing against other PC gamers? Dual Trackpad abortion controller vs. keyboard mouse users are going to lead to a very frustrating Steambox player I would think.
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