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State of wireless security today in 2006

spidey07

No Lifer
With advances in per-user, per session keys and 802.1x and various EAP methods I believe that wireless is finally secure enough for enterprise uses. Through the use of 802.1x/EAP (and its many flavors) I'd like to hear how you could hack/perform a "man in the middle" attack or other attacks/information gathering of a wireless network.

We can discuss the various pros/cons to the different EAP methods and encryption but to me it has "arrived" in a sense that if you employ best practices breaking into a wireless network is no more (and in many ways more) difficult than wired.

thoughts?

My current approach is to use 802.1x (eap-tls) for per user certificates coupled with user-ID/pass for two factor authentication coupled with per-user/per-session/rotated keys for authorization.

So is wireless as secure from a layer2 perspective as wired or can it ever be?
 
The instructors of Security courses that I've attended seem pretty agreeable to the statement that, "802.1x is better than most people have on their wired networks". If you use wires, IPSec, and Kerberos, then the two are, basically, equivalent.
 
My current approach is to use 802.1x (eap-tls) for per user certificates coupled with user-ID/pass for two factor authentication coupled with per-user/per-session/rotated keys for authorization.

Just wondering what part of you security prevents air-snort from compromising your network.😕
 
Originally posted by: DNose
My current approach is to use 802.1x (eap-tls) for per user certificates coupled with user-ID/pass for two factor authentication coupled with per-user/per-session/rotated keys for authorization.

Just wondering what part of you security prevents air-snort from compromising your network.😕

just wondering how you would ever be able to understand the stream of encrypted data that it would capture.

might as well sit between you and your bank and capture every single packet of the transaction. me thinks it would be quite difficult to understand that conversation.

Imagine two people speaking in code. You can hear every single word/sylable that they are saying and can even record it. You can even run this conversation though any and all decoding that you wish.

And then they switch codes on you every 5 minutes.

might be pretty hard to understand?
 
So I guess it would be the encryption LOL.

I?ve have heard so much about air-snort ability and other utilities.
I'm currently taking a Security+ course that keeps saying total security is not possible.
Just trying to understand, Thanks
 
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: RebateMonger
Airsnort can crack 802.1x????
how so?????
Huh? I was asking a rhetorical question. I sincerely doubt that Airsnort has any chance of cracking an 802.1x implementation. It was designed to crack WEP.
 
I'll bite.
I'll agree with you that the encryption schemes/technologies have matured enough to satisfactorily secure the connection.

However, what's not quite there yet is the smoothness in the user setup part. I think many of the parts are available, but just not quite cook-book ready. For example: Cert deployment.
I can use AD to automatically issue (and renew) 802.1x capable certs to Windows Domain member clients and users.
But, the USER still has to configure the wireless connection/network/NIC, and select which cert to use.
Additionally, User certs require the user to be logged on in order to work, but what if he can't logon, because the client can't contact the authentication server? (DC for Windows) Catch-22.
If you use a Machine cert, doesn't the user need Administrator privileges in order to access the cert when setting up the network connection?

Of course these users are mobile, and switch from WLAN to LAN to (home) WLAN to (hotspot) WLAN, and on and on. So how does one make all this relatively simple for a limited privilege user, on a corporate build device?
 
To paraphrase my wireless guru here at MS:

Wireless is not as secure as wired. Period.

We're trying to get a package from point A to point B securely. To do so we need a courier but we dont' have one. We're basically just sending it through the postal service. We've increased security by wrapping the package in a huge ball of duct tape. We add more and more layers of duct tape until it becomes a hassle for some third party to unwrap, but the fundamental flaw of sending it out publicly still exists.
 
Originally posted by: spidey07
well the client setup is still a major pain IMHO.

security vs ease of use. pick one and only one.

Intel has the Admin tool, which lets you build the profiles, and push them as an EXE to the clients. this will configure not ONLY profiles, but also h/w settings, app settings, etc. There is also a diretory it looks for on startup, if it finds a file there is runs it to add that profile to the box.

So, as an admin, you make a single .exe file that will install a profile using the setup you say to use, and then push it to the "autoexecute" folder for proset and then have them connect once to wired, and they are done.
 
I'll never agree that wireless is stronger than wired since I know how many wires are physically running from my switch. Wireless broadcasts so people can still see it. Unless you have physical access to my house, you can't get a wired connection.
 
Originally posted by: Gillbot
I'll never agree that wireless is stronger than wired since I know how many wires are physically running from my switch. Wireless broadcasts so people can still see it. Unless you have physical access to my house, you can't get a wired connection.

but I don't have to get in your house, unless you don't have a single connection out. If you have a connection out, then you don't know. I can tap your line right outside, down the road, at the ISP's datacenter....
 
Originally posted by: nweaver
Originally posted by: Gillbot
I'll never agree that wireless is stronger than wired since I know how many wires are physically running from my switch. Wireless broadcasts so people can still see it. Unless you have physical access to my house, you can't get a wired connection.

but I don't have to get in your house, unless you don't have a single connection out. If you have a connection out, then you don't know. I can tap your line right outside, down the road, at the ISP's datacenter....

But you'll run across that same issue if you're using wireless.
 
Originally posted by: diegoalcatraz
Originally posted by: nweaver
Originally posted by: Gillbot
I'll never agree that wireless is stronger than wired since I know how many wires are physically running from my switch. Wireless broadcasts so people can still see it. Unless you have physical access to my house, you can't get a wired connection.

but I don't have to get in your house, unless you don't have a single connection out. If you have a connection out, then you don't know. I can tap your line right outside, down the road, at the ISP's datacenter....

But you'll run across that same issue if you're using wireless.

meaning wireless is pretty much "As secure" as wired
 
Many of the flaws in one are echoed, to some degree, in the other.

It would be much more difficult to interfere with a wired network than a wireless one, even given that both have "perfect" physical security.

I can hang a high-gain yagi or dish from some distance and pretty much disrupt all of your wireless activity (unless you have EMF-grade windws). Frequency hopping of the original 802.11 was a bit more difficult to disrupt, but a decent, cheap, made-at-home 2.4G jammer can wipe the entire spectrum. Nuts, Bluetooth will show up as "full-spectrum noise" on decent equipment.

I built, as a demo, a "jammer" for cellular to show the manager of a health club that was worried about people using cellphones in the locker room. I also demo'd a system to kill cellular cameras (well, any digital, but phones were the concern). Cellular jammers are available outside the US, and are frequently used in theaters and restaraunts to thwart the inconsiderate and their miserable, ever-ringing annoyances.

As far as man-in-the-middle attacks, they are easier than I ever thought, once I saw it implemented. Without details .... basically it involves poisoning the ARP cache of both end systems. There are "a few" chunks of software around that accomplish man-in-the-middle with relative ease.

Of course, getting the data, and doing something with it, are two different colored horses. That "safety" can be defeated with a little "Social Engineering" and / or theft ... depending on the motivation of the interested party. The weakest link in any security scheme (wired or wireless) is still the humans that use it.

Given that the above is ~accurate, it would be much more difficult to gain internal access to a wired network than catching / pumping some stray RF to prosecute the attack. With larger campuses, the ability to catch a little RF goes down, but it's not impossible ... it's just an antenna issue at that point.

Even with multiple layers of heavy security, penetrating some networks is as easy as offering a little free "content" or porn: People download it, and infect the system. A good IDS will reveal most of the common stuff, but there's no (practical, cheap, easy) way to keep all of the signature files up-to-date with the malicious software creation.

When you consider that even very strong security can be breached (like SecureID was a few years ago), IMO, things that need to be kept secret should be kept off of wireless links.

As it has been since the start, the best protection is a strong Security Policy, strictly enforced to remove the weaker human elements, and vigilance to the traffic on your network. Educating the end-user is a big part of that. Eduating the lower management to be aware of "what constitutes a risk," and educating the upper management as to why enforcement is critical is always a good starting point.

If you aren't actively watching the traffic on your network, then you don't know (really) what's moving through your system.

I believe you'll find that some of the easiest networks to penetrate are the one that brag about their strong security. They've convinced themselves that their network is wrapped up tight ... and they relax ... then you can get 'em. There is no benefit to strong security, some of the time.

To get back to the original point: IMO, it's still much easier to get into a wireless system with common security than it is to get into a wired network with common security. It's much easier to disrupt (i.e. DOS / DDOS) a wireless network than a comparable wired system.

Look at how many warehouses are using wireless in their picking and inventory maintenance processes. It's easy enough for a competitor to suck those waves and see how you're doing, or jam those signals periodically to slow the system down (or kill it for a while).

.02, FWIW

Scott
 
spidey07, wireless is still laughably easy to DoS. The right cordless phone handset can disable everything, or if you want to be smarter, you can flood a channel with disassociate requests and fake AP traffic. In contrast, copper wires require a bit of work to interfere with, and blowing out switch ports typically only takes out a few adjacent ports with it depending on hardware.

Wireless is also highly suceptible to misconfiguration. There are a lot of great security technologies available now to protect wireless networks, but real deployed wireless networks are still more likely than not to be cleartext or WEP. And there's always WPA-PSK with a terrible pass phrase.

Of course, wired isn't perfect. Not many people use EAP or even MAC locking. Most office buildings are highly suceptible to a guest laptop just plugging into a sensitive network and grabbing a DHCP address. I would very much like to see some wired bulk link encryption much like 802.11i, but used for wired links. That's one thing wireless has going for it.

If you're worried about DoS or frankly just about reliability, wired is better and probably always will be. This will be a major differentiator in a business setting. If you're worried about ability to gain access to the network and use resources, either can be good or bad depending on what security technologies available are being used, and how smart the configuration is. A well set up 802.11i network would be more secure IMO than a wired network open to anyone who wants to plug in.
 
I won't disagree with the jamming possibilities, but that's not quite the same thing as "weak security". And this thread began with discussion of 802.1x encryption, not WEP or WPA.

I don't know how hard a "Man-in-the-Middle" attack is with 802.1x. I'm tempted to think that the Certificates would make it tough, but I'm certainly not an expert in wireless.

I DO think it'd be safe to say that more WIRED networks are broken into or contaminated because of:
a) weak passwords
b) stolen passwords
c) Trojans/keyloggers
d) Rogue vendor laptops
than have EVER been broken into by cracking 802.1x encryption.

No, that's not an apples-to-apples comparison. But we have to remember that "theoretical" security is usually compromised first by stupid human mistakes, rather than by the technology.
 
Good discussion. Scott makes some very interesting comments.

DoS: I consider the WLAN to be a convenience network, not the core network. If you have a legitimate (business) reason to be using our wireless network, then you also have permission to plug in to the LAN. I consider that a "minor" risk, as an inconvenience more than anything. Note: This is based on our sites, where we do not now have, nor plan to have sites with no wired LAN.

Man in the Middle: I'm sceptical that it's "so easy", however I wil defer to the man who's seen the demo.
Is it really that easy to poison the ARP cache on both client and AP without prior authentication?
If the AP is decently configured for encryption (no WEP) and the authentiction is PKI dependant, how weak is that really? I think (correct me if I'm wrong), that it would be pretty hard to break in to such a system.

FWIW, we provide WLAN at one of our campuses, but it's strictly as a convenience, primarily for non-employees.
We secured it by:
(1) No encryption. We turned off WEP, WPA, etc...it's wide open.
(2) The AP's connect to a segment hooked to a FW.
(3) Outbound traffic (to Internet) is port-restricted to 10001 only.
(4) Inbound traffic (to LAN) is IP and port restricted to 10001 and to our VPN switch only.

The thought is that we now have a place where guests can connect and VPN back to their corporate switches. Employees are restricted the same way, and can only connect to the corporate VPN switch (on the outside interface). So, we saved all the hassle/maintenance associated w/ the authentication/encryption set up for wlan. We rely on the VPN tunnel/configuration to protect the data stream, using the same standards/technology for that traffic flowing across the internet.

Your thoughts? Weaknesses? (don't bother w/ Social Engineering...we're painfully aware of end user/help desk susceptibility) 😉

 
setup a decent 802.11 network, and I can keep it up while you try to jam it...unless you have serious cash.

1. A band. If it's a heavy use buisiness, it should be on the 5Ghtz band
2. Freqency selection: My AP's will auto select (or my WLSE server will scan and rearrange the entire WLAN infrastructure) automaticlly, while I'm off getting doughnuts...oh, jelly ones
3. I use enterprise level hardware for my enterprise wireless, and enforce security standards on my WLAN, just like I do everything else. Things like easy to crack passwords, dictionary WPA attacks, easy to crack WEP keys go out the window. BTW, even if you luckly stumble upon a key, it's good for about one minute before keys rotated and are encrypted when sent to the clients.
4. you have to get on my WLAN before you can arp poisen it. You have to get past my encryption AND my authentication, which can be certificate, Username/password based AND/OR Mac

oh, by the way, if I see a bunch of requests from a rogue client, My WLSE server will triangulate your position and email me, I'll just send the FBI over, say "they keep trying to acess our network and DDOS the fbi website"
 
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