Starting out on online gambing (Hold'em) Tips?

[HonkeyDonk]

Originally posted by: DBL

Originally posted by: thedarkwolf
I started playing / losing 🙂 $50 a month well 2 months ago just for fun and they are right everybody at the low limit table are idiots. Makes it really hard to play smart poker. I would make a big bet with pocket As before the flap and half the time some idiot with a hand like Q 10 unsuited or even worse calls and manages to beat me.

I don't understand comments like this. When holding pocket AA's you want everybody at the table to call your raise (or re-raise you). Think about it. You are something like 30-40% to win 10-handed holding AA. That's 3 to 1 odds to win 9 to 1 on your money. Who wouldn't take that bet? Sure you will lose more often then you win w/ 9 callers but as long as you know when to fold, which is easier said than done, you would make a killing in the long-run. And that's what it is about anyway. All strategy is determined by your expected result over the "long-run". Anecdotal evidence based on one particular bad beat doesn't mean anything.

well, yes you want some people to stay in, but at the same time, u want to push people out if you are holding AA. Since AA is not invincible, the less people on the table playing, the better your odds of winning are. Someone w/ a Q/10 unsuited should not call a big raise preflop.

 

[amoeba]

The optimum place to be with AA is heads up all in preflop.

You do not want it multiway. While pot odds might make it seem like its great to have multiway hand, in reality you don't want it that way.

Its like saying you have positive EV if just for you, a lottery ticket costs .01 instead of say 1 dollar but you can only buy 1 ticket. While you are positive EV in this situation, the occurances of you hitting is so low that its not worth it.

 

[DBL]

Originally posted by: HonkeyDonk
well, yes you want some people to stay in, but at the same time, u want to push people out if you are holding AA. Since AA is not invincible, the less people on the table playing, the better your odds of winning are. Someone w/ a Q/10 unsuited should not call a big raise preflop.

Uhm, No. Did you even bother to read what I wrote? Someone w/ a Q10 suited should not call a big raise pre-flop FOR THEIR OWN SAKE. If you are holding AA, you want them to call as well as everybody else at the table. That's where the whole idea of limping in w/ a big hand comes from. You want to keep as many people involved as possible and also give them a chance to flop a hand, when you are in a dominating position. However, in low limit, limping w/ AA is unnecessary IMO b/c you will most likely get more than enough callers for even a small raise. No limit is different though w/ respect to limping.

 

[amoeba]

Originally posted by: DBL

Originally posted by: HonkeyDonk
well, yes you want some people to stay in, but at the same time, u want to push people out if you are holding AA. Since AA is not invincible, the less people on the table playing, the better your odds of winning are. Someone w/ a Q/10 unsuited should not call a big raise preflop.

Uhm, No. Did you even bother to read what I wrote? Someone w/ a Q10 suited should not call a big raise pre-flop FOR THEIR OWN SAKE. If you are holding AA, you want them to call as well as everybody else at the table. That's where the whole idea of limping in w/ a big hand comes from. You want to keep as many people involved as possible and also give them a chance to flop a hand, when you are in a dominating position. However, in low limit, limping w/ AA is unnecessary IMO b/c you will most likely get more than enough callers for even a small raise. No limit is different though w/ respect to limping.

First of all are you talking about limit or No limit?

if you are talking about no limit, then your advice is 100% wrong.

actually I take that back, even for limit, your advice is 100% wrong.

Unless if you plan to limp reraise preflop, limping AA is just retarded. raising AA preflop builds your pot and also charges big drawing hands like suited connectors.

I guarantee you, you don't want to give them a chance to flop a hand as multiway, most of the time the hand they flop beats your overpairs.

 

[DBL]

Originally posted by: amoeba
The optimum place to be with AA is heads up all in preflop.

You do not want it multiway. While pot odds might make it seem like its great to have multiway hand, in reality you don't want it that way.

Its like saying you have positive EV if just for you, a lottery ticket costs .01 instead of say 1 dollar but you can only buy 1 ticket. While you are positive EV in this situation, the occurances of you hitting is so low that its not worth it.

Oh man. You are completely wrong! I just explained that 9 callers holding AA pays you off approximately at 9-1 on a 1 out of 3 chance of winning. 1 caller pays you off 2-1 w/ ~3/4 chance of winning. Play this out over 12 hands of $1 each.

With 9 callers you win 4 out of 12 hands for a total of $40 and lose $8 for a total return of $32.
With 1 caller you win 9 out of 12 hands for a total of $18 and lose $3 for a return of $16.

It's not even close. But I'll play poker w/ you anytime. 😀

 

[DBL]

Originally posted by: amoeba
First of all are you talking about limit or No limit?

if you are talking about no limit, then your advice is 100% wrong.

actually I take that back, even for limit, your advice is 100% wrong.

Unless if you plan to limp reraise preflop, limping AA is just retarded. raising AA preflop builds your pot and also charges big drawing hands like suited connectors.

I guarantee you, you don't want to give them a chance to flop a hand as multiway, most of the time the hand they flop beats your overpairs.

I think it is pretty clear what I was talking about. Limping in low-limit is unnecessary since a standard raise will get called most of the time. Limping makes sense in NL sometimes, if only to disguise your hand. Flopping a set of A's after limping will most likely be more productive than raising big before the flop. This is a matter of psychology though and in reality both strategies should be employed for maximum effect. The math says you should always raise before the flop with AA, though. The math also says you should hope that every person at the table calls you raise. Only go against probability to avoid predictability. Having 9 callers to your AA pre-flop is an optimum situation.

 

[purbeast0]

lol some of you guys are funny. i love how people complain about having pocket A's then losing to someone who had q/10. Umm I hate to break it to you, but the OTHER HALF OF POKER IS LUCK! so if they win, they were more lucky than you! sure there is alot of strategy involved as well, but in the end, its LUCK! why do you think its called gambling?

you know its gambling when you go into it, so don't complain that you lost. i hate people like that. you get people crying about losing to a river rat or something. well tough luck! suck it up, get over it, and realize he had better luck than you!

there is no 'right' or 'wrong' when one 'should' stay in with any cards. they can do as they please, it is their money they are gambling with. maybe the ods are against them, but who cares ... its their money to gamble with, let them rely on luck!

 

[mchammer187]

Originally posted by: DBL

Originally posted by: amoeba
The optimum place to be with AA is heads up all in preflop.

You do not want it multiway. While pot odds might make it seem like its great to have multiway hand, in reality you don't want it that way.

Its like saying you have positive EV if just for you, a lottery ticket costs .01 instead of say 1 dollar but you can only buy 1 ticket. While you are positive EV in this situation, the occurances of you hitting is so low that its not worth it.

Oh man. You are completely wrong! I just explained that 9 callers holding AA pays you off approximately at 9-1 on a 1 out of 3 chance of winning. 1 caller pays you off 2-1 w/ ~3/4 chance of winning. Play this out over 12 hands of $1 each.

With 9 callers you win 4 out of 12 hands for a total of $36 and lose $8 for a total return of $28.
With 1 caller you win 9 out of 12 hands for a total of $18 and lose $3 for a return of $16.

It's not even close. But I'll play poker w/ you anytime. 😀

it really depends on the game i have never seen a game with 10 callers when there has been one raise

even the loosest tables you will not get 10 way action if the flop has been raised


remember you only have a 1/3 chance of winning th pot once all cards have been dealt

this can mean up to 4 bets on the flop 4 bets on the turn and 4 bets on the river (for limit provided the flop has gone multiway)

you have to fold that AA sometimes (when it should win)

can you really call 4 bets on the flop when there is a KK x, JJ x, QQx , or TTx on the flop

in my mind even in the loosest games you cannot (when there are 3 or more players in the pot)


you honestly cannot call multiple raises on the flop when 3 suited cards flop and you do not hold that suit

it is just simply suicide

so your win rate IMO is going to be less than 1/3 because you are assuming that there is not going to be any further betting on the flop or the river

1/3 of the time you will have the best hand

that does not mean 1/3 of the time you will take the pot (this can be more or this can be a lot less)

also remember this number is done in a No Fold'em situation which is a highly unrealistic model where 10 players all go through the river (i would like to see one instance there this has happened because i have never)

 

[amoeba]

Originally posted by: DBL

Originally posted by: amoeba
The optimum place to be with AA is heads up all in preflop.

You do not want it multiway. While pot odds might make it seem like its great to have multiway hand, in reality you don't want it that way.

Its like saying you have positive EV if just for you, a lottery ticket costs .01 instead of say 1 dollar but you can only buy 1 ticket. While you are positive EV in this situation, the occurances of you hitting is so low that its not worth it.

Oh man. You are completely wrong! I just explained that 9 callers holding AA pays you off approximately at 9-1 on a 1 out of 3 chance of winning. 1 caller pays you off 2-1 w/ ~3/4 chance of winning. Play this out over 12 hands of $1 each.

With 9 callers you win 4 out of 12 hands for a total of $36 and lose $8 for a total return of $28.
With 1 caller you win 9 out of 12 hands for a total of $18 and lose $3 for a return of $16.

It's not even close. But I'll play poker w/ you anytime. 😀

Did you not read what I wrote? of course I understand the pot odds calculations. By the way, your odds are way off. Heads up AA wins way more than 9 out of 12 hands (75%). At worst, it wins 77% against things like mid suited connectors. Against a random hand, its averages about 80%. But seeing as how the people who call your big raise preflop usually hold dominated hands such as lower pp or AK, AQ, you are usually looking at 85% to 90% win rate.


the fact that you think AA wins 1/3 of the time at a full table is even more rediculous. I don't know where you are getting your odds calculators.

You are also considering that you will automatically know when you are beaten on the flop or later streets when you limp with AA. Are you good enough to know when your AA got cracked in a 10 person pot?

You can't just look at the value you get preflop to determine your EV. You've left out lots of implied odds questions.

You also haven't answered my question about whether you are advocating limping AA in limit or NL.

I'll gladly play you. Set up a time. $100NL sound good?

 

[amoeba]

Originally posted by: DBL

Originally posted by: amoeba
First of all are you talking about limit or No limit?

if you are talking about no limit, then your advice is 100% wrong.

actually I take that back, even for limit, your advice is 100% wrong.

Unless if you plan to limp reraise preflop, limping AA is just retarded. raising AA preflop builds your pot and also charges big drawing hands like suited connectors.

I guarantee you, you don't want to give them a chance to flop a hand as multiway, most of the time the hand they flop beats your overpairs.

I think it is pretty clear what I was talking about. Limping in low-limit is unnecessary since a standard raise will get called most of the time. Limping makes sense in NL sometimes, if only to disguise your hand. Flopping a set of A's after limping will most likely be more productive than raising big before the flop. This is a matter of psychology though and in reality both strategies should be employed for maximum effect. The math says you should always raise before the flop with AA, though. The math also says you should hope that every person at the table calls you raise. Only go against probability to avoid predictability. Having 9 callers to your AA pre-flop is an optimum situation.

Yes I'll agree with some of this. however, you should never limp AA on the hope of flopping a set. Then you've lowered the value of AA to any other pocket pair.

In limit, the math agrees with always raising with AA as limit is very mechanical. In NL, limping AA to disguise your hand is sometimes ok if your table is very tight ( most players under 20% VPIP) or if your table is very aggressive ( you limp hoping to reraise all in preflop).

However, if you are averaging 5 limpers per hand, then raising AA preflop in NL is a must. Raise as much as they will call.

Only showing down premium hands like AA KK also sets you up so that you can steal later.

 

[DBL]

Originally posted by: mchammer187

it really depends on the game i have never seen a game with 10 callers when there has been one raise
even the loosest tables you will not get 10 way action if the flop has been raised

I was just talking in theory. The more callers the better the return over the long run.

remember you only have a 1/3 chance of winning th pot once all cards have been dealt
this can mean up to 4 bets on the flop 4 bets on the turn and 4 bets on the river (for limit provided the flop has gone multiway)
you have to fold that AA sometimes (when it should win)

Absolutely. Sometime the flop will be good, sometimes bad. So what? We were talking about pre-flop strategy.

can you really call 4 bets on the flop when there is a KK x, JJ x, QQx , or TTx on the flop
in my mind even in the loosest games you cannot (when there are 3 or more players in the pot)
you honestly cannot call multiple raises on the flop when 3 suited cards flop and you do not hold that suit

it is just simply suicide

so your win rate IMO is going to be less than 1/3 because you are assuming that there is not going to be any further betting on the flop or the river

1/3 of the time you will have the best hand
that does not mean 1/3 of the time you will take the pot (this can be more or this can be a lot less)

Whether you can call or not should depend on pot odds and implied odds. It's still irrelevant to the original question on pre-flop strategy.

 

[amoeba]

once again AA does not win 1/3 of the time against 9 random hands.

 

[mchammer187]

Originally posted by: amoeba
once again AA does not win 1/3 of the time against 9 random hands.

it does if any 9 hand are played and there are no bets after the flop 😀

 

[amoeba]

Originally posted by: mchammer187

Originally posted by: amoeba
once again AA does not win 1/3 of the time against 9 random hands.

it does if any 9 hand are played and there are no bets after the flop 😀

whether there are any more bets after the flop does not effect how good the hand is.

What you are saying is that AA is the best hand at the river 1/3 of the time against 9 random hands.

This is way off. Actual percentage is around 17%.

You can check his by realizing how much AA is favored over 1 random hand. Around 82% as I stated previously. take 82% to the 9th power and you see the percentage of times AA is the best hand at the river.



In order for AA to win 1/3 of the time against 9 random hands, it has to win about 89% against a single random hand, which is way too high.

 

[mchammer187]

Originally posted by: amoeba

Originally posted by: mchammer187

Originally posted by: amoeba
once again AA does not win 1/3 of the time against 9 random hands.

it does if any 9 hand are played and there are no bets after the flop 😀

whether there are any more bets after the flop does not effect how good the hand is.

What you are saying is that AA is the best hand at the river 1/3 of the time against 9 random hands.

This is way off. Actual percentage is around 17%.

You can check his by realizing how much AA is favored over 1 random hand. Around 82% as I stated previously. take 82% to the 9th power and you see the percentage of times AA is the best hand at the river.



In order for AA to win 1/3 of the time against 9 random hands, it has to win about 89% against a single random hand, which is way too high.

http://poker.worldzonepro.com/nofoldemholdem001020.html

i just say no bets means that no cards are ever folded if no cards are ever folded it has about a 31% chance to win according to the above site

 

[DBL]

Originally posted by: amoeba

Did you not read what I wrote? of course I understand the pot odds calculations. By the way, your odds are way off. Heads up AA wins way more than 9 out of 12 hands (75%). At worst, it wins 77% against things like mid suited connectors. Against a random hand, its averages about 80%. But seeing as how the people who call your big raise preflop usually hold dominated hands such as lower pp or AK, AQ, you are usually looking at 85% to 90% win rate.


the fact that you think AA wins 1/3 of the time at a full table is even more rediculous. I don't know where you are getting your odds calculators.

You are correct about AA winning near 80% heads-up. I was simplifying the calculations. However, AA does win exactly 31% of the time 10-handed. So if we want to be anal about it, we could revise my numbers. However, the fact remains that the math says that AA will be a lot more profitable w/ as many callers as possible.

You are also considering that you will automatically know when you are beaten on the flop or later streets when you limp with AA. Are you good enough to know when your AA got cracked in a 10 person pot?

You can't just look at the value you get preflop to determine your EV. You've left out lots of implied odds questions.

You also haven't answered my question about whether you are advocating limping AA in limit or NL.

I'll gladly play you. Set up a time. $100NL sound good?

This is all true. However, I couldn't think of a hand I would rather have in a 10 person pot. Can you?

 

[amoeba]

Originally posted by: mchammer187

Originally posted by: amoeba

Originally posted by: mchammer187

Originally posted by: amoeba
once again AA does not win 1/3 of the time against 9 random hands.

it does if any 9 hand are played and there are no bets after the flop 😀

whether there are any more bets after the flop does not effect how good the hand is.

What you are saying is that AA is the best hand at the river 1/3 of the time against 9 random hands.

This is way off. Actual percentage is around 17%.

You can check his by realizing how much AA is favored over 1 random hand. Around 82% as I stated previously. take 82% to the 9th power and you see the percentage of times AA is the best hand at the river.



In order for AA to win 1/3 of the time against 9 random hands, it has to win about 89% against a single random hand, which is way too high.

http://poker.worldzonepro.com/nofoldemholdem001020.html

i just say no bets means that no cards are ever folded if no cards are ever folded it has about a 31% chance to win according to the above site

Right. If cards are folded, your win percentage goes up. I still find 31% a bit high but obviously I don't have the statistical modeling data they have so I can't really argue this point any further.

This does imply that against a single random hand, AA wins 88% of the time, much higher than the previously stated 75%.

In any case, I believe me and DBL have agreed upon preflop strat on AA or at least agreed to disagree.

 

[amoeba]

Originally posted by: DBL

Originally posted by: amoeba

Did you not read what I wrote? of course I understand the pot odds calculations. By the way, your odds are way off. Heads up AA wins way more than 9 out of 12 hands (75%). At worst, it wins 77% against things like mid suited connectors. Against a random hand, its averages about 80%. But seeing as how the people who call your big raise preflop usually hold dominated hands such as lower pp or AK, AQ, you are usually looking at 85% to 90% win rate.


the fact that you think AA wins 1/3 of the time at a full table is even more rediculous. I don't know where you are getting your odds calculators.

You are correct about AA winning near 80% heads-up. I was simplifying the calculations. However, AA does win exactly 31% of the time 10-handed. So if we want to be anal about it, we could revise my numbers. However, the fact remains that the math says that AA will be a lot more profitable w/ as many callers as possible.

You are also considering that you will automatically know when you are beaten on the flop or later streets when you limp with AA. Are you good enough to know when your AA got cracked in a 10 person pot?

You can't just look at the value you get preflop to determine your EV. You've left out lots of implied odds questions.

You also haven't answered my question about whether you are advocating limping AA in limit or NL.

I'll gladly play you. Set up a time. $100NL sound good?

This is all true. However, I couldn't think of a hand I would rather have in a 10 person pot. Can you?

The question is not whether you can think of a hand you would rather have in a 10 person pot. The question is whether you are better off with AA in a 5 person pot with everybody paying double preflop. The answer to that question is obviously yes.

As to the hand I would rather have in a 10 person pot question, if it was NL, I would much rather have suited connectors, AXs, or mid pp.

 

[DBL]

Originally posted by: amoeba
whether there are any more bets after the flop does not effect how good the hand is.

What you are saying is that AA is the best hand at the river 1/3 of the time against 9 random hands.

This is way off. Actual percentage is around 17%.

You can check his by realizing how much AA is favored over 1 random hand. Around 82% as I stated previously. take 82% to the 9th power and you see the percentage of times AA is the best hand at the river.

In order for AA to win 1/3 of the time against 9 random hands, it has to win about 89% against a single random hand, which is way too high.

Your math is wrong. AA wins ~31% of the time 10 handed. This number comes from feeding millions of sample hands into a computer.

 

[mchammer187]

Originally posted by: amoeba

Originally posted by: mchammer187

Originally posted by: amoeba

Originally posted by: mchammer187

Originally posted by: amoeba
once again AA does not win 1/3 of the time against 9 random hands.

it does if any 9 hand are played and there are no bets after the flop 😀

whether there are any more bets after the flop does not effect how good the hand is.

What you are saying is that AA is the best hand at the river 1/3 of the time against 9 random hands.

This is way off. Actual percentage is around 17%.

You can check his by realizing how much AA is favored over 1 random hand. Around 82% as I stated previously. take 82% to the 9th power and you see the percentage of times AA is the best hand at the river.



In order for AA to win 1/3 of the time against 9 random hands, it has to win about 89% against a single random hand, which is way too high.

http://poker.worldzonepro.com/nofoldemholdem001020.html

i just say no bets means that no cards are ever folded if no cards are ever folded it has about a 31% chance to win according to the above site

Right. If cards are folded, your win percentage goes up. I still find 31% a bit high but obviously I don't have the statistical modeling data they have so I can't really argue this point any further.

This does imply that against a single random hand, AA wins 88% of the time, much higher than the previously stated 75%.

In any case, I believe me and DBL have agreed upon preflop strat on AA or at least agreed to disagree.

if cards are folded it will go up but only marginally

because remember the cards that are going to be folded are seven deuce off two three off, ten two off etc

so the AA might gain a hire win %(albeit marginal boost) but willl get less money in the long run

 

[amoeba]

so are you both advocating limping AA because you want 10 people to the flop ?

 

[mchammer187]

Originally posted by: DBL

Originally posted by: amoeba
whether there are any more bets after the flop does not effect how good the hand is.

What you are saying is that AA is the best hand at the river 1/3 of the time against 9 random hands.

This is way off. Actual percentage is around 17%.

You can check his by realizing how much AA is favored over 1 random hand. Around 82% as I stated previously. take 82% to the 9th power and you see the percentage of times AA is the best hand at the river.

In order for AA to win 1/3 of the time against 9 random hands, it has to win about 89% against a single random hand, which is way too high.

Your math is wrong. AA wins ~31% of the time 10 handed. This number comes from feeding millions of sample hands into a computer.

all im saying is 31% is highly unrealistic because it assumes no hand is ever folded

your post flop play is going to determine whether you make money or not

also limping with AA is sometimes the wrong move when you think that your raise has a good chance of stealing the blinds

 

[mchammer187]

Originally posted by: amoeba
so are you both advocating limping AA because you want 10 people to the flop ?

no

it really depends on the table

and what has occurred

usually i will raise with AA

but it depends on position , who has bet, if there has been a raise , how loose the blinds are etc.

 

[amoeba]

Originally posted by: mchammer187

Originally posted by: amoeba
so are you both advocating limping AA because you want 10 people to the flop ?

no

it really depends on the table

and what has occurred

usually i will raise with AA

but it depends on position , who has bet, if there has been a raise , how loose the blinds are etc.

I'll just put it as simply as I can. You want as much in the pot as you can preflop with AA as it is big favorite preflop. How you do this, limp reraise, open raise, etc...is up to you, but you want as much in the pot preflop as possible with AA.

 

[mchammer187]

Originally posted by: amoeba

Originally posted by: mchammer187

Originally posted by: amoeba
so are you both advocating limping AA because you want 10 people to the flop ?

no

it really depends on the table

and what has occurred

usually i will raise with AA

but it depends on position , who has bet, if there has been a raise , how loose the blinds are etc.

I'll just put it as simply as I can. You want as much in the pot as you can preflop with AA as it is big favorite preflop. How you do this, limp reraise, open raise, etc...is up to you, but you want as much in the pot preflop as possible with AA.

i agree but sometimes it is good to disguise your hand to save it for a check-raise on the turn for the double bet

it is all about money vs. risk