Star Wars (SDI) +20 years

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Future Shock

Senior member
Aug 28, 2005
968
0
0
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
As long as it is more than the rest of the world combined, I don't see how anyone can argue that it is anything but too much.

At least it's for an actually "defensive" measure unlike about 90% of our military which is simply power projection and offensive in nature - what with troops and bases in half countires on earth and warring every two-three years since end of WWII.

And that same laser can't be used to take out "terrorists" 100 miles away on the ground - why? Or to assasinate a forgein leader we don't like?

It ISN'T really a defensive weapon - it's a long-range weapons platform who's first use happens to be defensive. It's a lot easier to get people to spend a few gazillion on a defensive weapons system than saying we are building a long distance laser to assisinate forgein leaders we don't like. Even though the same platform can be used for either...

Future Shock
 

qoou

Banned
Jan 10, 2006
42
0
0
That would be cool if we could just laser beam the President of Iran. Sure Iran would protest for about a week and then theyd get over it and everyone would be happy.
 

judasmachine

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2002
8,515
3
81
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
As long as it is more than the rest of the world combined, I don't see how anyone can argue that it is anything but too much.

At least it's for an actually "defensive" measure unlike about 90% of our military which is simply power projection and offensive in nature - what with troops and bases in half countires on earth and warring every two-three years since end of WWII.

I seriously doubt they are looking at it from a strictly defensive manner. If they can mount an offensive one on a satellite or tank they will, it'll just require massive power supplies.

edit: grammer and spelling.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
0
If they can get the output of directed energ weapons high enough it will be a bigger change than the A bomb.
You could theoretically wipe out all your enemy in seconds while having a compete shied against retaliation by missiles.
What it effectively does is leave terrorism as the only military option for very other country.
In effect it also ends MAD.
If we were to attempt to deploy a comprehensive offensive and defensive directed energy shield and weapon other powers may feel compelled to nuke us before we deploy it.
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
76
Originally posted by: mect
you people do realize that a lot of university research is paid for through military grants. A lot of this "weapons research" is going into improved communications, photonics, electronics, environmental, and other areas of research.

This is a crock. The Bush administration is CUTTING basic research and diverting everything to military research. This is bad for America.

The outcome of this guidance is clear: Science funding will be cut beginning in 2006. According to the Bush administration's proposed budget, the NSF budget would shrink by 2 percent in FY 2006 to a proposed level of $5.6 billion, a figure that is 34 percent and nearly $3 billion less than the one that Congress and the administration had agreed upon for FY 2006 in the NSF Reauthorization Act of 2002. This cut would negate the proposed 2 percent increase in NSF funds for next year (FY 2005); FY 2006 funding would be the same as the FY 2004 level. In fact, the funding for FY 2006 would be lower than this year's level because of inflation. The news gets worse: In the five years covered in the administration's budget (2005?2009), NSF would not reach the level of funding originally proposed for FY 2005, thus dashing any hopes for making up for the cuts in future years.

http://www.aibs.org/washington-watch/washington_watch_2004_08.html
 

Shortass

Senior member
May 13, 2004
908
0
76
Space warfare! Sign me up!

But really, that would be a horrifying prospect. An offensive/defensive laser sheild/spear?! If something like this ever got implemented, well, the world is gonna be a different place. Talk about power... and the helplessness of anyone ouside of the sphere of salvation.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: judasmachine
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
As long as it is more than the rest of the world combined, I don't see how anyone can argue that it is anything but too much.

At least it's for an actually "defensive" measure unlike about 90% of our military which is simply power projection and offensive in nature - what with troops and bases in half countires on earth and warring every two-three years since end of WWII.

I seriously doubt they are looking at it from a strictly defensive manner. If they can mount an offensive one on a satellite or tank they will, it'll just require massive power supplies.

edit: grammer and spelling.


The bottom line is Russia could still annihilate us 30x over this is an unacceptable position to be in - especially once the resource wars start.
 

Velk

Senior member
Jul 29, 2004
734
0
0
Originally posted by: marincounty
Originally posted by: mect
you people do realize that a lot of university research is paid for through military grants. A lot of this "weapons research" is going into improved communications, photonics, electronics, environmental, and other areas of research.

This is a crock. The Bush administration is CUTTING basic research and diverting everything to military research. This is bad for America.

That doesn't actually have any bearing on his suggestion, which is that the money given for military grants has a lot of non-military benefits as well.

That they are almost certainly less than they would be if the funding was provided for generalised research is undoubtedly true, but the other consideration is that there was never any chance that the funding for military research would ever be transferred directly into general research. If the military budget were cut entirely there would be an awful lot of pigs feeding at that budget trough.


 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: judasmachine
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
As long as it is more than the rest of the world combined, I don't see how anyone can argue that it is anything but too much.

At least it's for an actually "defensive" measure unlike about 90% of our military which is simply power projection and offensive in nature - what with troops and bases in half countires on earth and warring every two-three years since end of WWII.

I seriously doubt they are looking at it from a strictly defensive manner. If they can mount an offensive one on a satellite or tank they will, it'll just require massive power supplies.

edit: grammer and spelling.


The bottom line is Russia could still annihilate us 30x over this is an unacceptable position to be in - especially once the resource wars start.
But dumping money into our defense buget doesn't do anything to their weapons stockpiles, so that isn't a valid argument.

 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: marincounty
"Military spending is continuing to take a big bite out of our taxes, but spending for other programs grew slightly faster in FY04. Overall military-related spending (for past and current wars and military activities) increased 8.2 percent in FY04 over FY03, while total federal funds spending grew by 8.3 percent. An estimated 42 percent of our federal income tax dollars was spent on past and present military activities

Definition of "military spending": FCNL?s analysis includes all of the programs identified in the federal budget as military programs, including the military costs of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, all other Defense Department programs, Energy Department nuclear weapons programs, and military-related programs in the departments of Homeland Security, Justice, and other independent agencies (e.g. Selective Service). FCNL?s analysis also includes mandatory payments to the military and CIA retirement and health care systems and outlays for foreign military financing, sales, grants, and training. Finally, FCNL?s analysis includes spending for past military activities such as the portion of the interest paid on the national debt which can be attributed to past military spending and veterans services. "

http://www.fcnl.org/issues/item.php?item_id=1253&issue_id=19

Don't believe the budget numbers put out by the whitehouse, or do you not
remember "surpluses as far as the eye can see".
And comparing spending as a percentage of GDP is bullcrap.


You better read what Conur said, unless you think the federal budget == entire economy.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: marincounty
quote: "The current (2005) United States military budget is larger than the military budgets of the next twenty biggest spenders combined, and six times larger than China's, which places second. The United States and its close allies are responsible for approximately two-thirds of all military spending on Earth (of which, in turn, the U.S. is responsible for two-thirds), and spend 57 times more than the seven so-called "rogue" nations combined (Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan and Syria). Military spending accounts for more than half of the United States' federal discretionary spending, which is all of the U.S. government's money not spoken for by pre-existing obligations. [1]

According to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, in 2003 the United States spent approximately 47% of the world's total military spending of US$956,000,000,000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._military_budget

I think defense spending crossed the line into "too much" a long time ago.

Until the war in Iraq our defense spending was shrinking as a % of our GDP.

 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: techs
If they can get the output of directed energ weapons high enough it will be a bigger change than the A bomb.
You could theoretically wipe out all your enemy in seconds while having a compete shied against retaliation by missiles.
What it effectively does is leave terrorism as the only military option for very other country.
In effect it also ends MAD.
If we were to attempt to deploy a comprehensive offensive and defensive directed energy shield and weapon other powers may feel compelled to nuke us before we deploy it.

I brought this up in another thread long ago. If nations create defensive systems that effectivley eliminated the threat of ICBMs then we may see another conventional world war where low yield tactical nukes are used.



 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: judasmachine
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
As long as it is more than the rest of the world combined, I don't see how anyone can argue that it is anything but too much.

At least it's for an actually "defensive" measure unlike about 90% of our military which is simply power projection and offensive in nature - what with troops and bases in half countires on earth and warring every two-three years since end of WWII.

I seriously doubt they are looking at it from a strictly defensive manner. If they can mount an offensive one on a satellite or tank they will, it'll just require massive power supplies.

edit: grammer and spelling.


The bottom line is Russia could still annihilate us 30x over this is an unacceptable position to be in - especially once the resource wars start.
But dumping money into our defense buget doesn't do anything to their weapons stockpiles, so that isn't a valid argument.

It does if we can render them effectively useless.

 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
73,164
34,491
136
Originally posted by: techs
If they can get the output of directed energ weapons high enough it will be a bigger change than the A bomb.
You could theoretically wipe out all your enemy in seconds while having a compete shied against retaliation by missiles.

That's a really huge "if". Firing a high energy laser requires at least as much control/logistics prep as launching a missile. Adding space mirrors compounds the technical challenge. Since lasers aren't area weapons like nukes the aiming has to be perfect and the target has to be worth hitting. They would not be appropriate for battling conventional forces.
 

Future Shock

Senior member
Aug 28, 2005
968
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: techs
If they can get the output of directed energ weapons high enough it will be a bigger change than the A bomb.
You could theoretically wipe out all your enemy in seconds while having a compete shied against retaliation by missiles.
What it effectively does is leave terrorism as the only military option for very other country.
In effect it also ends MAD.
If we were to attempt to deploy a comprehensive offensive and defensive directed energy shield and weapon other powers may feel compelled to nuke us before we deploy it.

I brought this up in another thread long ago. If nations create defensive systems that effectivley eliminated the threat of ICBMs then we may see another conventional world war where low yield tactical nukes are used.


No, if we have a shield for nuclear ICBMs then one day 5 cargo containers in the ports of LA, San Fran, San Diego, New York, and DC will all explode in 20megaton blasts simultaneously...

Meanwhile a few subs will surface and fire low-trajectory stikes against our ICBM fields and airfields. Nearly indefensible if they can get them off fast.

THEN - when the comms channels are impaired, massive confusion exists, political leadership on the run or dead, etc. - there would be a wave of conventional ICBMs to follow it up.

Future Shock
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: Future Shock
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: techs
If they can get the output of directed energ weapons high enough it will be a bigger change than the A bomb.
You could theoretically wipe out all your enemy in seconds while having a compete shied against retaliation by missiles.
What it effectively does is leave terrorism as the only military option for very other country.
In effect it also ends MAD.
If we were to attempt to deploy a comprehensive offensive and defensive directed energy shield and weapon other powers may feel compelled to nuke us before we deploy it.

I brought this up in another thread long ago. If nations create defensive systems that effectivley eliminated the threat of ICBMs then we may see another conventional world war where low yield tactical nukes are used.


No, if we have a shield for nuclear ICBMs then one day 5 cargo containers in the ports of LA, San Fran, San Diego, New York, and DC will all explode in 20megaton blasts simultaneously...

Meanwhile a few subs will surface and fire low-trajectory stikes against our ICBM fields and airfields. Nearly indefensible if they can get them off fast.

THEN - when the comms channels are impaired, massive confusion exists, political leadership on the run or dead, etc. - there would be a wave of conventional ICBMs to follow it up.

Future Shock

Sounds like you have it all figured out.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
0
Originally posted by: marincounty
Originally posted by: mect
you people do realize that a lot of university research is paid for through military grants. A lot of this "weapons research" is going into improved communications, photonics, electronics, environmental, and other areas of research.

This is a crock. The Bush administration is CUTTING basic research and diverting everything to military research. This is bad for America.

The outcome of this guidance is clear: Science funding will be cut beginning in 2006. According to the Bush administration's proposed budget, the NSF budget would shrink by 2 percent in FY 2006 to a proposed level of $5.6 billion, a figure that is 34 percent and nearly $3 billion less than the one that Congress and the administration had agreed upon for FY 2006 in the NSF Reauthorization Act of 2002. This cut would negate the proposed 2 percent increase in NSF funds for next year (FY 2005); FY 2006 funding would be the same as the FY 2004 level. In fact, the funding for FY 2006 would be lower than this year's level because of inflation. The news gets worse: In the five years covered in the administration's budget (2005?2009), NSF would not reach the level of funding originally proposed for FY 2005, thus dashing any hopes for making up for the cuts in future years.

http://www.aibs.org/washington-watch/washington_watch_2004_08.html
What is interesting is that on the whole defense budgets are going down around the world with some exceptions, like China.
Most countries seem content with a viable defensive force to repel their most feared enemies as opposed to previous years when countries tried to have a viable offensive capability.
And even the defensive forces have been reduced to not guaranteeing a successful defense but a defense that could inflict enough damage on the aggressor both on his forces and homeland as to make it economically and politically unwise for the aggressor to attack.
In other words despite the big terrorism fear we are spending less on defense world wide which seems to indicate a much larger percentage of the worlds population have ruled out wars of aggression.
Short version is modern weapons do so much damage no one will really gain from a war.
And thats a good thing.

 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: judasmachine
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
As long as it is more than the rest of the world combined, I don't see how anyone can argue that it is anything but too much.

At least it's for an actually "defensive" measure unlike about 90% of our military which is simply power projection and offensive in nature - what with troops and bases in half countires on earth and warring every two-three years since end of WWII.

I seriously doubt they are looking at it from a strictly defensive manner. If they can mount an offensive one on a satellite or tank they will, it'll just require massive power supplies.

edit: grammer and spelling.


The bottom line is Russia could still annihilate us 30x over this is an unacceptable position to be in - especially once the resource wars start.
But dumping money into our defense buget doesn't do anything to their weapons stockpiles, so that isn't a valid argument.

It does if we can render them effectively useless.

But it's not like even the majorty of our military budget is directed at that.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,402
8,574
126
Originally posted by: marincounty
At what point does a weapons system have to work? After 20 years and hundreds of billions of dollars? Or is it 30 years and trillions of dollars?
At what point is it a failure to be abandoned?

depends on how much basic scientific research is going into it, obviously. if there is nothing new put into weapon system then it should take as long as any regular off the shelf product takes to implement, maybe a little longer because they want to make sure it works in battlefield conditions.

but this stuff isn't anywhere near an off the shelf technology. they've had to invent new technologies and wait for new technologies to be invented. if its taken so long because basic scientific information and new engineering processes have to be invented (which, btw, could then be applied to other fields) could it be worthwhile taking even longer than it already has?
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,402
8,574
126
Originally posted by: Zebo

The bottom line is Russia could still annihilate us 30x over this is an unacceptable position to be in - especially once the resource wars start.

start? where have you been for the last 5000 years?
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
76
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: marincounty
At what point does a weapons system have to work? After 20 years and hundreds of billions of dollars? Or is it 30 years and trillions of dollars?
At what point is it a failure to be abandoned?

depends on how much basic scientific research is going into it, obviously. if there is nothing new put into weapon system then it should take as long as any regular off the shelf product takes to implement, maybe a little longer because they want to make sure it works in battlefield conditions.

but this stuff isn't anywhere near an off the shelf technology. they've had to invent new technologies and wait for new technologies to be invented. if its taken so long because basic scientific information and new engineering processes have to be invented (which, btw, could then be applied to other fields) could it be worthwhile taking even longer than it already has?

Yeah, but they are already DEPLOYING THE STAR WARS SYSTEM before it has passed testing.
 

Future Shock

Senior member
Aug 28, 2005
968
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Future Shock
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: techs
If they can get the output of directed energ weapons high enough it will be a bigger change than the A bomb.
You could theoretically wipe out all your enemy in seconds while having a compete shied against retaliation by missiles.
What it effectively does is leave terrorism as the only military option for very other country.
In effect it also ends MAD.
If we were to attempt to deploy a comprehensive offensive and defensive directed energy shield and weapon other powers may feel compelled to nuke us before we deploy it.

I brought this up in another thread long ago. If nations create defensive systems that effectivley eliminated the threat of ICBMs then we may see another conventional world war where low yield tactical nukes are used.


No, if we have a shield for nuclear ICBMs then one day 5 cargo containers in the ports of LA, San Fran, San Diego, New York, and DC will all explode in 20megaton blasts simultaneously...

Meanwhile a few subs will surface and fire low-trajectory stikes against our ICBM fields and airfields. Nearly indefensible if they can get them off fast.

THEN - when the comms channels are impaired, massive confusion exists, political leadership on the run or dead, etc. - there would be a wave of conventional ICBMs to follow it up.

Future Shock

Sounds like you have it all figured out.

Nah, not me. During the height of the Cold War I studied Political Science at Purdue with Dr. Louise Rene Beres, who was a consultant to Strategic Air Command, the DOD, and Israel on nuclear weapons policy. He's been deep underground at SAC, sat in the command chair, and consulted with Israel on their announcement/non-announcement of nuclear capability. He is an expert on Realpolitiks, nuclear arms, and global politics - about 13 books to his name at the time.

I had him for 2 or 3 classes, including "World Politics" and a course called "Violence and Politics". He rocked. I took copious notes.

Anyway, the way to defeat an antimissle system has been known for a long time - don't use missles for your first attacks. Nothing really hard about it. Of course, people had been writing about killing Congress by flying jets into buildings years before 9/11...

Future Shock
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,402
8,574
126
Originally posted by: marincounty

Yeah, but they are already DEPLOYING THE STAR WARS SYSTEM before it has passed testing.
i don't see anywhere in the article that says this stuff is being deployed. in fact, the article talks extensively about how hard it is to get the fighter to adopt the system.
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
76
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: marincounty

Yeah, but they are already DEPLOYING THE STAR WARS SYSTEM before it has passed testing.
i don't see anywhere in the article that says this stuff is being deployed. in fact, the article talks extensively about how hard it is to get the fighter to adopt the system.

Hello, it's already installed in Alaska.

The Pentagon has eight missiles on the ground in Alaska and California, poised to shoot down any makeshift ballistic missile that comes our way. Trouble is, sometimes the interceptors stay on terra firma when they're launched. That's what happened in December in the latest Star Wars test, which came two years after a different snafu. A computer glitch was to blame in December, the Missile Defense Agency (MDA) says.
Such woes could be part of the reason missile defense is heading toward a 10% cut in its 2006 budget, to $8.8 billion. MDA spokesman Rick Lehner, contacted before an embargo on the budget was broken, wouldn't comment on the projected spending. But outsiders have no such qualms. "It's a very complex program with a lot of technical issues," notes Steven Kosiak, a defense-budget analyst with the Center for Strategic & Budgetary Assessment, a Washington think tank. "It's hard to spend all that money efficiently."

ALTERED PRIORITIES. However, there's probably more than missile mishaps behind the dollar drop for Star Wars. The war on terror and Iraq may have taken their toll on missile defense and changed the way Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld assesses potential threats. He went into office worried about space issues, the ballistic-missile threat, and transforming the military.

Then came September 11, Afghanistan, and Iraq.

"The Rumsfeld vision of future warfare has had a severe collision with reality," says Loren Thompson, chief operating officer of the Lexington Institute, a conservative think tank in Arlington, Va. The problems facing missile defense, he says, are "the relatively weak case for the overall mission and the need to spend money in other ways."

Consider as well the difference between the 2000 election and last year's. Five years ago, missile defense was one of Bush's key issues, a surefire way to galvanize his conservative base. "America must build effective missile defenses based on the best available options at the earliest possible date," he declared during his first run for the White House.

"NO DEMONSTRATED CAPABILITY." Since then, despite the roughly $10 billion a year that has poured into the program, Rumsfeld has conceded the system doesn't have to be 100% effective. It just has to work well enough to change the calculation of an enemy thinking about lofting a missile at Los Angeles or New York. Problem is, it doesn't even seem capable of doing that, as the December test showed.

After more than 20 years of effort, major parts of the system are nowhere near ready for prime time, notes Philip Coyle, a top Pentagon weapons tester in the Clinton Administration. Neither the sophisticated X-band radar nor the Space-Based Infra-red System-High (SBIRS-High), both of which are critical to detecting and tracking incoming missiles, is close to operational. SBIRS-High is running into such difficulties that Lockheed Martin (LMT ) has agreed to defer a $10 million award -- its total profit on the project for 2004-2005. After a major restructuring in 2002, the cost of this one part of Star Wars was pegged at $4.4 billion -- and since then has swelled to $5.6 billion.

What's more, every time there is an attempt to intercept a missile, the target carries a beacon to tell the interceptor where it is -- a service an enemy isn't likely to offer. The bottom line: The system "has no demonstrated capability to defend against a realistic attack under realistic conditions," Coyle says.

NEW THREAT. And as the American program struggles, other countries are making headway in pursuing new technologies. Scott Ritter, the former arms inspector in Iraq who correctly concluded Baghdad had no weapons of mass destruction, now says Russia has tested an SS-27 Topol-M mobile ballistic missile that would render the current Star Wars scheme useless. It is too fast to hit right after takeoff unless the interceptor is lucky enough to be really close to the launch pad.

Also, the SS-27 is hardened against lasers, so the airborne laser -- a program already way behind schedule -- wouldn't work. And because it's maneuverable and capable of releasing three warheads and four decoys, it would be much harder to defeat as it falls in the terminal stage of flight.

MDA spokesman Lehner says Ritter's objection misses the point of his agency's goal, which is to address "the more rudimentary missiles North Korea and Iran are developing." But what if Pyongyang or Tehran buys an SS-27? "I don't know about that"
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/feb2005/nf2005024_2337_db038.htm