Star Wars MMO (SWTOR) could actually be successful?

Star Wars: The Old Republic MMO Chance of Success

  • Likely

  • Maybe

  • Not Likely


Results are only viewable after voting.

Andrew111

Senior member
Aug 6, 2001
792
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I know, I know....no one should hold their breath when it comes to a new MMO being a WOW killer but this one seems to have a lot going for it.

Pros:
Storyline almost undoubtedly will be superior considering how much is being invested in voice acting alone. This could draw in plenty of MMO skeptics/burn-outs. Also has a huge amount of background videos/lore already supplementing the game at the official site.

Crafting system done by companions even when you're offline...no mindless time wasted watching the crafting progress bar.

Bioware is making it and they have a history of making good games.

Cons:
Unlike the previous Star Wars MMO...looks like you can start as a Jedi so might be an overabundance of them running around.

Space combat seems to have been neglected...they're using a scrolling shooter for it so I don't see it getting very fancy or interesting space combat wise.

Anyone else think SWTOR has a legitimate chance of success so far? It's supposed to be released this spring (exact date not announced).
 

Anomaly1964

Platinum Member
Nov 21, 2010
2,465
8
81
Definite first day for me, I wanna get in on day one...

SW Galaxies was GREAT until they Killed it...

And yes, Jedi right away IS a mistake but since there will be Sith, necessary I guess...
 

Andrew111

Senior member
Aug 6, 2001
792
0
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Looks interesting for sure, not a first day purchase for me though.

Crossing my fingers that I get a sneak peak through beta testing...it's inevitable that launch day will see massive lag, server crashes, inability to log-in, etc. If I hear they actually manage the launch decently I'll pull the trigger right then and there since that'll demonstrate they actually put out a decent product that wasn't rushed. We'll see though.
 

Nintendesert

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2010
7,761
5
0
Why would having Jedi from the start be a mistake? Did any of you even play KOTOR? Jedi and their prevalence during that time period is well established by the lore Bioware created.
 

zerocool84

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
36,041
472
126
This will be successful at first, look at SWG but then I could see them killing it. They haven't done an MMO yet and we've seen many try and fail.
 

Andrew111

Senior member
Aug 6, 2001
792
0
0
Why would having Jedi from the start be a mistake? Did any of you even play KOTOR? Jedi and their prevalence during that time period is well established by the lore Bioware created.

I wouldn't argue that but it's just going to be kinda dumb if everyone is Jedi or Sith. Might be hard completing hard quests that require the specialization of different classes. I do hear that they're giving each class the ability to heal though...though it's hard to imagine how they can implement the game without a class being known as the healer, one as the tank, etc. Sure, some classes will probably be like a druid in WOW that can choose to specialize into dps/tank/or healer but if 99% of the population is Jedi or Sith I'm just hoping it doesn't make forming groups/completing quests a pain in the butt.
 
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power_hour

Senior member
Oct 16, 2010
779
1
0
Depends on how you define successful?

Will it dethrone WOW, I doubt it. Will it replace SWG, big maybe.

The key criteria for success is the ability to suck you in and keep you hooked with enough replay value to make you forget you are paying close to $200 per year to play this game.

Also I think the MMO scene is getting a bit overplayed and the novelty is starting to wear off.

The issue everyone can roll a Jedi on day one better get fixed or it could overshadow a potentially amazing game. I really hope it does well.
 

AyashiKaibutsu

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2004
9,306
4
81
I put it at not likely, but it's got more chance than most others; it's just those chances still aren't very good. I might grab it after a few months if it proves me wrong though.
 
Oct 20, 2005
10,978
44
91
I know, I know....no one should hold their breath when it comes to a new MMO being a WOW killer but this one seems to have a lot going for it.

Pros:
Storyline almost undoubtedly will be superior considering how much is being invested in voice acting alone. This could draw in plenty of MMO skeptics/burn-outs. Also has a huge amount of background videos/lore already supplementing the game at the official site.

Crafting system done by companions even when you're offline...no mindless time wasted watching the crafting progress bar.

Bioware is making it and they have a history of making good games.

Cons:
Unlike the previous Star Wars MMO...looks like you can start as a Jedi so might be an overabundance of them running around.

Space combat seems to have been neglected...they're using a scrolling shooter for it so I don't see it getting very fancy or interesting space combat wise.

Anyone else think SWTOR has a legitimate chance of success so far? It's supposed to be released this spring (exact date not announced).

That's what they said for every single MMO before this one. And it will be said for every other MMO that will come out after this.

WoW is just TOO big to catch up to now. While SWTOR (or any new MMO for that matter) may have certain things that are "better" than WoW, it won't have the experience to really take away market share from WoW.

WoW is the biggest super power in the MMO industry and only it can destroy itself.

Having said all that, it is still possible for this game to be successful depending on how you define that word. Just b/c it won't be a wow killer, doesn't mean it can't be fun for a lot of people.
 

jlee

Lifer
Sep 12, 2001
48,518
223
106
I'd actually be tempted to give it a shot...I loved Star Wars back when the games were awesome (TIE Fighter, Dark Forces, etc).
 

BudAshes

Lifer
Jul 20, 2003
14,010
3,395
146
I still think swg was the greatest mmorpg ever. It was also a buggy piece of crap with no end game. So that shows how much respect I have for the mmorpg field. I actually had fun when I played it though. The crafting was incredibly deep, you could actually stake parts of the planet out for your houses, have them built for you, fill them with whatever you wanted. You could just be fricking dancer or musician if you wanted. So much variation made it awesome, but also buggy, horribly buggy and laggy. Of course when they made the space exantion they ruined the game. The game was already stretched to thin and adding lame tacked on space combat and ruining the only fun part of the game in the name of "balance" by overhauling the health/action/mind system. Which I actually quite enjoyed. It was like the game was too original so they had to dumb it down.
 

Mem

Lifer
Apr 23, 2000
21,476
13
81
I still think swg was the greatest mmorpg ever. It was also a buggy piece of crap with no end game. So that shows how much respect I have for the mmorpg field. I actually had fun when I played it though. The crafting was incredibly deep, you could actually stake parts of the planet out for your houses, have them built for you, fill them with whatever you wanted. You could just be fricking dancer or musician if you wanted. So much variation made it awesome, but also buggy, horribly buggy and laggy. Of course when they made the space exantion they ruined the game. The game was already stretched to thin and adding lame tacked on space combat and ruining the only fun part of the game in the name of "balance" by overhauling the health/action/mind system. Which I actually quite enjoyed. It was like the game was too original so they had to dumb it down.

I loved SWG too PRE-CU was probably my favourite MMORPG back then,as to TOR it will get a lot of new players at launch just to see what the game is like ,remember Warhammer Online that had a high population at launch but over time population went right down,if they get the community stuff working right in place within 6 months of launch then TOR should be fine,ie housing,crafting ,good content that keeps the player wanting more,ironically SWG did have a great community until NGE came along and ruined the game.

I'm glad its not a WoW clone since I'm getting tired of those types of games, to see something completely different is a good thing in my books.
 

Sentrosi2121

Platinum Member
Aug 8, 2004
2,567
2
81
TOR takes place during the time of many sith and jedi in the galaxy. So it makes sense to include these right off the bat. SWG didn't do Jedi right away because the game time frame was around the time the Rebellion started. And there are a couple of different classes of Sith/Jedi to play.

Now to the OP topic on whether TOR will be successful. Is it sustainability? Is it number of units sold? Is it number of active subscriptions after the first three months? Six months? 12 months? Is it playability? Is TOR a successful MMORPG if it exceeds the subscription base of WoW? Is BioWare spoken of in the same breath as Blizzard or Funcom? Define what you would consider successful and then we can better answer your question.
 

Andrew111

Senior member
Aug 6, 2001
792
0
0
TOR takes place during the time of many sith and jedi in the galaxy. So it makes sense to include these right off the bat. SWG didn't do Jedi right away because the game time frame was around the time the Rebellion started. And there are a couple of different classes of Sith/Jedi to play.

Now to the OP topic on whether TOR will be successful. Is it sustainability? Is it number of units sold? Is it number of active subscriptions after the first three months? Six months? 12 months? Is it playability? Is TOR a successful MMORPG if it exceeds the subscription base of WoW? Is BioWare spoken of in the same breath as Blizzard or Funcom? Define what you would consider successful and then we can better answer your question.

Yeah, there are two classes of Sith and Jedi which can further be specialized...I just think game balance and grouping may become an issue. The Trooper can specialize into tanking or dps and the Imperial Agent into sniping or dps/rogue from what I can gather...but they may be a rare breed in the game if they're needed in groups...making forming groups a painful ordeal.

And I purposely kept the question abstract to whatever people think would make it a success if that makes any sense, lol.
 

lord_emperor

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2009
1,380
1
0
Unlike the previous Star Wars MMO...looks like you can start as a Jedi so might be an overabundance of them running around.

For the time period BioWare has built the game in this makes perfect sense, there were an abundance of Jedi and Sith who actively participated in the war.

I do feel BioWare has neglected non-Jedi options though, there is no reason both sides can't have troopers, bounty hunters, agents and smugglers plus additional occupations.

I want SWTOR to be a success so badly so somthing can break WoW's stranglehold on the market (and me).
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
17,082
136
I only played Galaxies for a week when it was free. Didnt care for it.
Heard a short while later they opened up Jedi to everyone without having to earn it. Apparently a lot of folks were pissed and left the game.

In this game, if they let people start as Jedi then they better make the other classes special in some way otherwise it will just be a big game of Jedi Outcast MP.
 

Anomaly1964

Platinum Member
Nov 21, 2010
2,465
8
81
If ANYTHING could dethrone WOW, it would be a GREAT Star Wars MMO...

If they can combine an UNFOLDING story with good combat and FUN grinding, this game will BLOW up!

What I don't like about any current MMO is how they force you to group with 5+ people. In SWG, pre-CU, I was melee, my friend was a Doctor/Sniper and we could take out Krayt dragons on our own, sell the pearls for 6 million credits and have MAC'd out houses and clothes (for bonus skills). I'd rather play with 2-3 well rounded out buddies (again, skill wise) than be a part of some big group I don't know (is that killing the purpose for an MMO)?
 

BathroomFeeling

Senior member
Apr 26, 2007
210
0
0
Playing an MMOG doesn't mean you have to be part of some 'group' or be in constant social contact with other players. My opinion is that in an MMOG, especially and specifically an MMORPG, any gameplay style is valid. If you're happy with engaging the in-game world almost entirelly by yourself, role-playing a lone-hero/hermit/criminal/whatever, by all means have at it. Part of the appeal of MMO gaming is that you get to interact with all sorts of players doing their own thing, knowing that there are others around you that wishes to not fit into the same mold, and not just those partaking in the same routine as everyone else.

Anyway I think TOR may do fairly well for the first couple of months, as the novelty of a brand new MMO from a reputable studio would be too much for many to resist. There will be veteran MMOers, SW fans, casuals, and various other segments of the gaming population eyeing for a piece of the action. But a year or two after release, I expect the picture to be very different. A good percentage will have left, with only diehard fans staying behind. Why would they leave? In short, the game doesn't offer much in the way of compelling social interaction as some other MMOs do. About the only thing it does have, at least does rather well, compared to the rest of them, and something very very many fans like to repeat ad nauseum, is that the game will focus on the "storyline", and that it will be great because NPCs will have actual "voice-overs" rather than simple text.

Now from the perspective of a relative newbie, TOR may well be a new kind of awesome. It appears fresh, graphics are very decent, plot appears very interesting, and so on and so forth. But to those familiar with the games made by the company, as well as MMOs in general, TOR represents something else entirely - a step backwards.

Looking at the game, one notices several major consistencies with the company's other game KOTOR. Is that a good or bad thing? Let's see. One example, TOR is primarily focused on combat & the like. While this is fun for many folks, fighting is not everyone's cup of tea. As previous MMOs like SWG, UO & perhaps even WOW have shown, there is a large demographic content with simply doing mundane peaceful things, things like owning homes, decorating them, creating a fashion trend, being a professional crafter, etc... TOR unfortunately offers none of that. It may not sound cool to have these types of folks running around, but in order for any MMO to truly become the "next big thing", you will need to attract almost everyone to your game. And it is exactly those things that is needed in order to attract that demographic to make it come true.

Another example is the gameplay aspect, currently the only way to play the game with any chance of development, is through missions. Now missions aren't necessarily a bad thing, it's fun to do things in a structured way every once in a while. The problem with TOR, and some other MMOs, is that they rely too much on missions/quests to keep players engaged. They do this because the game offers nothing else in the way of content. A much better way to go about it, in my opinion, is to allow players themselves to create the content themselves. Not in the way as a GM with god-like powers would, but something approaching what happens in real-life. Rather than basing it on some generic mission/quest template, player-generated content can take on any number of forms. It is determined entirely by the players themselves, in whatever ways they see fit. SWG & UO did this exceptionally well. WoW & some other quest-centric MMOs however approach it a little differently. Some are open to player adjustment, while others are somewhat template-based.

TOR however takes a rather antiquated approach. Players choose their mission, and are subsequently taken for a joy ride. The part of the map where the mission takes place will be instanced off from the rest of the universe. Players will witness things, and complete a set number of tasks, all along a pre-determined one-way path. NPCs and/or actual players can tag along to form a group, although with the number of scripted cutscenes taking place within the mission template, it's unlikely they'll get much social interaction. If all this sounds familiar, it should. The whole thing is based on the mission system from KOTOR, right down to the much repeated "voice-over" gimmick. Initially it may feel fresh, but eventually you will tire of the same monotonous canned phrases repeated throughout, as well as the same generic missions. From that perspective, TOR is in many ways, a multiplayer version of KOTOR.

The advancing storyline element is certainly to be commended. Without this, MMOs would become stale & boring. But then again, this is something to be expected for any decently sized MMO. UO had it more than a decade back, and so did WoW. So on the whole, TOR offers a similar level of gameplay experience compared to other MMOs, but on the other hand it also takes away some rather large pluses that makes it engaging. Without a niche or outlet for casuals & other gameplay modes to fit in, as well as the lack of gameplay styles besides that of missions, TOR will not succeed in taking the crown from WoW, nor any other MMO for any respectable amount of time.


What is needed in the market is an MMO designed with open-endedness in mind. A large-scale sand-box based MMOG capable of supporting any and all gameplay styles (preferably without a steeeeeeep learning curve). Were such a game to be released, it will absolutely demolish WoW and any other MMO with a vengeance. It's actually quite sad to see how far we've not come in terms of MMOs. UO was the first to popularize the MMO genre, and was also the first sand-box MMO of its kind. Many loved it for that reason as you could do almost anything you wanted. Unfortunately the stain known as EQ came out & forever marred the MMO landscape. After a few developers from UO moved on to create SWG, it was supposed to become the next great sand-box MMO. Once again it was lauded by players for its immersiveness and depth, allowing anyone to do almost anything within the confines of its universe. But for whatever reason, the parent company of EQ decided it was too advanced for its own good and decided to destroy it. Now all we have are ashes. Ashes & a whole barrage of EQ-clones flooding the market with the same trite level-based quest/group-centric gameplay, whose sole collective purpose is to print money by putting players in a massive, futile, and ultimately pointless time-sink.
 

Andrew111

Senior member
Aug 6, 2001
792
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Looking at the game, one notices several major consistencies with the company's other game KOTOR. Is that a good or bad thing? Let's see. One example, TOR is primarily focused on combat & the like. While this is fun for many folks, fighting is not everyone's cup of tea. As previous MMOs like SWG, UO & perhaps even WOW have shown, there is a large demographic content with simply doing mundane peaceful things, things like owning homes, decorating them, creating a fashion trend, being a professional crafter, etc... TOR unfortunately offers none of that. It may not sound cool to have these types of folks running around, but in order for any MMO to truly become the "next big thing", you will need to attract almost everyone to your game. And it is exactly those things that is needed in order to attract that demographic to make it come true.

In SWTOR your ship is probably going to be your home in which you can customize. Also, Bioware is taking crafting seriously. They have stated they want people to have the ability to become known for their crafting...making things that many others can't. They even noted how they don't want crafting to be like WOW where the proficient crafters merely make the things needed by their guild. If someone so chooses, they can become so well-known and proficient at crafting that they are not merely a guild commodity and are sought out by many in the galaxy. Also, they have taken out the mundane crap where you sit at the screen watching the crafting progress bar go up...letting you even improve your crafting when offline since your companions go gather things for you, etc.

Looks to me like you didn't delve too deep into this game's development or you would know they were doing these things...instead you state "TOR unfortunately offers none of that" when in fact they have said plenty on the subject.
 

BathroomFeeling

Senior member
Apr 26, 2007
210
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0
Well my post was already fairly long as it was, and I was hoping to save that for another conversation. Covering all points from the onset leaves little room for argument, leaving only the raving-lunatic-rant angle to progress with :p.

Anyway I don't expect crafting in TOR to be anything special other than a modified version of the one from KOTOR. The devs mentioned that they didn't want it to be like WoW or some other crafting-based MMO, not because of its monotonous nature nor its potential to be abused. They mentioned it for two reasons, one because a full and meaningful crafting system did not exist in KOTOR (although why they didn't simply chose to ignore that and implement it anyway I'll never know, the system is already primed for something good), and two because they themselves mentioned that the game they're trying to create needs to be "heroic" in nature, and that crafting was not "heroic".

So no, I fail to see how they can take crafting seriously when the system they've implemented is almost exactly like the one in KOTOR, essentially a combat character with a small subset of crafting abilities. The reasons you posted doesn't make much sense either. Belonging to a guild does not preclude a crafter from selling their wares to those outside it. It certainly wasn't for other MMOs like UO & SWG, guild crafters there were absolutely able to service anyone to their liking besides guildmates, and their wares also bore the mark of their makers for everyone to see. Why the special case for WoW? I see it as coming down to several factors. The most important being that the game was not open-ended. It didn't really depend on any player-generated economy, as the sole focus was exactly the same as it was in EQ, the collection of loot.

TOR looks to work similarly to KOTOR, base components and blueprints are collected around the universe, and you have the ability to combine and utilize them to some degree. As with KOTOR, you can't be completely self-sufficient, and a large part of 'crafting' appear to simply boil down to collecting these special items & relying on them for variation & depth. If this is indeed how it's going to work, once again I fail to see how this is them taking crafting seriously. The components and blueprints are but a simplistic version of SWGs system perhaps, but even with that a full on crafting profession system could have been engineered. We don't even have that, as the developers maintain the need to keep the game "heroic". About the only thing it does is create a sort of economy, as components, schematics, and semi-constructed parts will need to be traded.

Your other argument is the boogeyman known as the 'crafting grind' is an oft repeated non-issue that many developers mention in order to get out of creating a decent crafting system. It was only true for early MMOs like UO only because an advanced system hadn't been thought of yet. Unfortunately for them, it was, back with SWG, to a degree anyway. Players there did do some grinding in the initial stages sure, but the majority of advancement came from elsewhere, mostly from actual utilization in the assistance of customers & other useful purposes. Other elements like resource harvesting and crafting also took on a completely different tact from UO. Where once it all had to be done manually, in SWG you had automated processes (like factories, harvesters, etc..) to do it for you, even whilst offline. Sound familiar?

The devs could have gone many different ways with what they had, and I was honestly extremely excited when I first heard of the ability to craft in the game a few weeks after they first announced it. Imagine the look on my face when I realized the stark similarities between that & KOTOR. To put salt on the wound, they reasoned this out to keeping it adventurous & "heroic". Okay.
 
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Nintendesert

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2010
7,761
5
0
You have obviously not read anything about the crafting being implemented in SWTOR. I'd recommend you read up on what they've released and what they have planned.
 

Ross Ridge

Senior member
Dec 21, 2009
830
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What is needed in the market is an MMO designed with open-endedness in mind. A large-scale sand-box based MMOG capable of supporting any and all gameplay styles (preferably without a steeeeeeep learning curve). Were such a game to be released, it will absolutely demolish WoW and any other MMO with a vengeance.

That's far from likely. While EVE Online has done fairly well (it's probably the third most popular western subscription based MMORPG today, behind World of Warcrfaft and Runescape), it's the only sandbox MMORPG that has done well since Ultima Online. People seem to far prefer the quest and raid model of EverQuest and virutally every MMORPG since.

After a few developers from UO moved on to create SWG, it was supposed to become the next great sand-box MMO. Once again it was lauded by players for its immersiveness and depth, allowing anyone to do almost anything within the confines of its universe. But for whatever reason, the parent company of EQ decided it was too advanced for its own good and decided to destroy it.

For whatever reason? It was hemoraging subscribers. Star Wars: Galaxies as originally conceived had failed. Sony Online Entertainment had to change the game or close it down. People were expecting EverQuest in space. They wanted to play Jedi's, and quest and level in up a Star Wars setting. For all the nostalgia you hear today for the game as it originally came out, it had a pretty negative word of mouth at the time. It just wasn't what people wanted.

Star Wars: The Old Republic isn't likely to be World of Warcraft beater, indeed it isn't really trying to be. But it is trying to be a game people actually want to play, which unfortunately wasn't really on Raph Koster's mind when he was designing SW:G. Personally, I don't find anything about the game all that interesting, just another EverQuest clone, but what I or you think doesn't matter. What matters is what all the potential MMORPG players willing to fork out $15 a month think (assuming they go with that model), and the evidence of past MMORPGs suggest that they'd much prefer the game BioWare is making than what you or I would envision.
 

Arglebargle

Senior member
Dec 2, 2006
892
1
81
Since I think that WoW was a 'right place, right time' game, I don't hold out hopes for any game to be a WoW-killer.

SWTOR will do well, in my estimation, with numbers ranking from a half million to a million in first year. They've sunk a lot of money in development of this, and I fully expect a marketing blitz to back it up. Not just an MMO player marketing plan, but a full on Star Wars afficiando blitz.

I have issues with SWTOR, but they are as likely to be things they are touting as new wonderful assets (ie, full voicing). I already know that I probably couldn't play a standard bounty hunter, as the obnoxious 'badass wulverine wannabee' voice really grates on me.

And while the comparison will always be there between it and the previous Star Wars mmo, these are very different beasts. I expect that SWTOR will be finished and be smoothly launched. I happen to know some devs from SWG, and they were aghast at the decisions of upper management before the release. They thought it was kicked out the door unfinished, and kicked out undone on purpose. The light of nostalgia will always make it seem better than it was. It did appear to be failing mightily when the moves to try and fix things raised the ire of a generation of complainers.

If so many people want a sandbox style MMO, the companies are foolish for not catering to them. However, I don't see the more sandboxy games out there doing that well (other than Eve).

I got no horse in the crafting race, so no comments there. Though I do think it is cool when crafters can make things better than the lion's share of regular game items.
 

coloumb

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,069
0
81
Just because there will be jedi does not mean everyone will want to start out as one [I knew quite a few people in SWG who had ZERO desire to be a jedi - they were happy being smugglers, combat medics, etc]. Anyone who's played the KOTOR games knows that Jedi aren't the uber powerful classes they were in SWG before the major nerfs.

What will determine the longevity of this MMO is the end game - crafting, cooking, merchant, pvp, instances, "dailies", etc - there has to be a large diversity of something GOOD to do at the end of the day to keep people playing. They need to have a plan of also releasing new content to keep the end game fresh and new [space flight, vehicles, battlefields, etc].

Short term - yes it will sell a lot of units and keep people subscribed. Long term will be determined by my above comments. As long as they don't go completely insane like the devs did with SWG - the game should do alright.