Star of anti-Obamacare ad refuses to accept proof that ACA will save her money

[Matt1970]

Government should just ban insurance outright. That would be the only way to radically change the cost structure that is so fucked up right now.

That would be expensive as hell buying out the insurance companies. You can't just flush the industry down the toilet. That are a lot of people invested in it one way or another.

 

[berzerker60]

That would be expensive as hell buying out the insurance companies. You can't just flush the industry down the toilet. That are a lot of people invested in it one way or another.

There were a lot of people in the lead industry (lead paint, leaded gasoline, etc) too. But it insanely destructive for American health (in fact, arguably one of the causes of the rise in American violence in the 20th century and continuing decline in violence in the decades since it was banned). Somehow we've survived it being regulated basically out of existence.

Similarly, we've survived without the whale oil industry, slave-sales and all it connected to, textiles built by children and barely-paid women, and the 'patent medicine' trade regulated away by the creation of the FDA.

 

[Matt1970]

There were a lot of people in the lead industry (lead paint, leaded gasoline, etc) too. But it insanely destructive for American health (in fact, arguably one of the causes of the rise in American violence in the 20th century and continuing decline in violence in the decades since it was banned). Somehow we've survived it being regulated basically out of existence.

Similarly, we've survived without the whale oil industry, slave-sales and all it connected to, textiles built by children and barely-paid women, and the 'patent medicine' trade regulated away by the creation of the FDA.

You are comparing wiping out an entire multi-billion dollar industry with telling paint and gas manufacturers to change their ingredients.

 

[Fern]

-snip-
Repubs were either insincere when they offered up the individual mandate back then or insincere when they oppose it today, or both.

Yeah, it's either one of those options or the actual fact that Repubs didn't support it sufficiently for it to even make it to the floor for a vote.

Fern

 

[OverVolt]

Not true - my yearly copay went up 3 dollars....and I'm a male under 30.

It depends on if you were in the individual market or not. The ACA won't effect fulltime workers very much.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Yes, yes, yes, we know all this. Progz aren't to blame, it all the evil Republicans. You've told us this over and over and over and over. We laughed at you each and every time.

This plays well with the crowd you hang with, I get that. But the rest of us easily recognize the desperation in the argument. If this kind of childish projection helps you come to grips with the mess you've created, fine. But I for one am going to call you out on it each time you post it.

Grow the fuck up - please!

If you want to pretend that the Individual Mandate and opposition to having socialized medicine is not the Republicans' plan, go right ahead and delude yourself.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Couple things here. How many pages was the Republican plan vs. how many pages has the ACA grown to? Also, was the Republican plan to lie repeatedly to the American people about keeping their doctors and insurance to get this passed?

The specific implementation (the thousands of pages) is irrelevant. The central idea is what is at issue. Presumably a Republican version of an Individual Mandate bill would also be large and complex.

That Obama may have lied about people with inferior plans being able to keep their policies is irrelevant as to who originated and initially backed the basic idea.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

That would be expensive as hell buying out the insurance companies. You can't just flush the industry down the toilet. That are a lot of people invested in it one way or another.

So are you suggesting that we should maintain an expensive and unnecessary insurance system as a jobs program for people who work in the insurance industry (and also who deal with insurance issues in the health care industry)?

The percentage of GDP (5%? 3%?) that we would save by excising the unnecessary insurance companies could be used to create new jobs that actually have value for our society, such as more having more doctors and nurses, etc.

 

[boomerang]

If you want to pretend that the Individual Mandate and opposition to having socialized medicine is not the Republicans' plan, go right ahead and delude yourself.

No pal, I'm not the one deluding myself and this post of yours and the two that follow it are proof of that.

Here's what the nation knows with certainty. The current nightmare that we call Obamacare was passed in the dead of night with zero Republican votes. None, zip, nada. You can attribute the legislation to whomever you wish including men from Mars (and I think you're capable of that) but too many people are bright enough to know we wouldn't be facing all the massively negative consequences of it without full and total support of the Democrat Party. It's your albatross and you can keep trying to cast it off, but it's going to be there for a very long time.

 

[Matt1970]

The specific implementation (the thousands of pages) is irrelevant. The central idea is what is at issue. Presumably a Republican version of an Individual Mandate bill would also be large and complex.

That Obama may have lied about people with inferior plans being able to keep their policies is irrelevant as to who originated and initially backed the basic idea.

Ok, so a Republican is bound to have a bad idea once in a while. The idea of healthcare reform is what is a central idea. The page count separates the plans quite a bit.

And lying about "inferior" plans is quite relevant.

 

[Matt1970]

So are you suggesting that we should maintain an expensive and unnecessary insurance system as a jobs program for people who work in the insurance industry (and also who deal with insurance issues in the health care industry)?

The percentage of GDP (5%? 3%?) that we would save by excising the unnecessary insurance companies could be used to create new jobs that actually have value for our society, such as more having more doctors and nurses, etc.

So people working for the insurance industry have no value?

 

[Lash444]

So people working for the insurance industry have no value?

Here cometh the strawman.

 

[Strk]

So people working for the insurance industry have no value?

Our administrative costs are three times the average for developed counties, so apparently they have too much value.

The joke is, while our system would still be more expensive, a huge chunk is spent on non-medical things. We spend more on administrative expenses and ambulatory care. I can't quite figure out the latter because paramedics, the highest paid, trained and the ones who can actually use heroic measures on an ambulance, make a pretty crappy wage.

 

[Matt1970]

Our administrative costs are three times the average for developed counties, so apparently they have too much value.

The joke is, while our system would still be more expensive, a huge chunk is spent on non-medical things. We spend more on administrative expenses and ambulatory care. I can't quite figure out the latter because paramedics, the highest paid, trained and the ones who can actually use heroic measures on an ambulance, make a pretty crappy wage.

Because we all know our government is the poster child for efficiency.

 

[Fern]

Our administrative costs are three times the average for developed counties, so apparently they have too much value.

The joke is, while our system would still be more expensive, a huge chunk is spent on non-medical things. We spend more on administrative expenses and ambulatory care. I can't quite figure out the latter because paramedics, the highest paid, trained and the ones who can actually use heroic measures on an ambulance, make a pretty crappy wage.

Ambulatory care is not what you think it is:

is a personal health care consultation, treatment, or intervention using advanced medical technology or procedures delivered on an outpatient basis (i.e. where the patient's stay at the hospital or clinic, from the time of registration to discharge, occurs on a single calendar day).[1][2][3]

Many medical investigations and treatments for acute illness and preventive health care can be performed on an ambulatory basis, including minor surgical and medical procedures, most types of dental services, dermatology services, and many types of diagnostic procedures (e.g. blood tests, X-rays, endoscopy and biopsy procedures of superficial organs). Other types of ambulatory care services include emergency visits, rehabilitation visits, and in some cases telephone consultations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambulatory_care

Fern

 

[WhipperSnapper]

So people working for the insurance industry have no value?

The work that they are doing is unnecessary for the provision of health care. The paper pushing creates nothing of real value and does not actually provide any health care.

 

[Fern]

The work that they are doing is unnecessary for the provision of health care. The paper pushing creates nothing of real value and does not actually provide any health care.

This post has enormous potential for a 'self-pwnage' POTY (thread of the year) as soon as the OP fvcks up a piece of his paperwork and comes back here to rant.

Fern

 

[WhipperSnapper]

This post has enormous potential for a 'self-pwnage' POTY (thread of the year) as soon as the OP fvcks up a piece of his paperwork and comes back here to rant.

Basically, I said that the insurance companies and people whose jobs involving dealing with the insurance companies are superfluous and that health care systems can be designed without it. We even have <gasp> real world examples.

 

[Fern]

Basically, I said that the insurance companies and people whose jobs involving dealing with the insurance companies are superfluous and that health care systems can be designed without it. We even have <gasp> real world examples.

I don't think we do, and I'm being sincere and not partisan.

We require that paperwork for any number of reasons, not the least of which is justifying the payment of fees. (This includes both the so-called necessity of the procedures and, this is no small or inconsequential thing, their actual performance.) Yet, we have continual claims of, and indeed convictions for, fraudulent behavior on behalf of Medicare/Medicare providers.

The "real world examples" you might intend to mention involve countries who, for all intents and purposes, have price controls on medical procedures and utilize de-facto 'death panels. Such a comparison makes an apples-to-ball bearings comparison seem reasonable. You may as well mention the surface temperature of the sun when someone announces they will not wear socks on a given day. The disconnect is mindboggling for those of us who have actually experienced both (I mean HC systems here). It's bizarre, to put it lightly, that Americans think they can just pluck bits and pieces of another system to apply here, ignoring the context of our system, and expect it function in some inexplicitly sublime fashion.

If you have a 4 cylinder car, just purchase and install the spark plugs for an 8 cylinder car, surely you must be confident that your horsepower will double.

Fern

 

[WhipperSnapper]

...and the point is that it's been shown that to a great extent all of those paper pushers are superfluous under various systems that are superior to the one we have now.