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Star Citizen Development Discussion (Is Derek Smart Right?)

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preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,761
60
91
I don't care if it\s prealpha,alpha, alpha 9.9999 or whatever. I care about realease date. I sold my x52 pro cause it was useless in elite and I just don't find good game for joystick. I would like something special so I can have a reason to buy my self new good joystick :) I don't have time for fly sims like dcs to study them, but space game seems casual enough to have fun.

Star Citizen to be finished is good for backers, all gamers, kickstarter, future projects on kickstarter and sc fi genre. Hope it will see the day of relase date, if not, life goes on.I'll play freelancer :D
Glad you didn't get scammed :)

I just think about all the people who spent hundreds or thousands of dollars on SC instead of buying VR equipment for Eve Valkyrie.
 
Feb 4, 2009
26,772
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OK, this is my first official warning to you guys.

1. Keep the topic to the games.

2. Keep the member baiting out of this thread.

3. Your allowed to disagree with someone, however you are NOT allowed to be cynical / sarcastic / abusive to other members.

If you cant keep your temper and e-peen in check, don't post and move on.

4. Did i mention you can not be sarcastic / cynical at another member, because we will assume no one in this thread has a sense of humor, and will take it offensively, so JUST AVOID IT.

Keep on topic and keep a valid discussion otherwise i will remove access to the violators and do what must be done to keep this thread neutral and balanced.

Moderator Aigomorla.
Off Topic Part: Good man. I liked this thread when it began, then it took a bad turn, now it seems to be back on topic.

On Topic Part: I still don't get the hate, either you bought it and has buyers remorse which you can ask for a refund or you bought it and are disappointed with the direction/pace then ask for a refund or do as we all have done with many games accept that its not your thing move on and learn from it. Its pretty cool that you can even get a refund. Can you get refunds from any other games, could an Elite Dangerous(?) backer ever get a refund? Does Mr. Smart offer refunds (for a purchase outside of steam), seriously I don't know the answer?
Personally I don't care if its in perpetual development as long as there are updates and something new to do with each update. One of my favorite games 7 Days to Die has been in development for a long time but I really don't care and I kind of like that two or three times per year there is an update that changes the game or adds new stuff to do or explore.
 
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Feb 4, 2009
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Yeah, Star Citizen has not been an Alpha release. It's not in alpha if you're still developing the core gameplay mechanics. It's a pre-alpha [sic] that was pushed out to mollify the suckers that paid them for pictures of space ships, and to get them to sink even more money in a hopeless project.
Alright please don't take this as an insult its not meant to be one.

As a hypothetical what result are you looking for?
1) A more complete experience now for backers?
2) A complete game that has nearly everything that was promised sometime in the reasonable future
3) Same as above but now
4) The satisfaction of being right about SC being a scam?

This part may not apply to you prelove, I have a feeling that many of the skeptics are really looking to brag about being right or enjoy the theoretical tears from someone who spent hundreds/thousands on backing SC.
Point is we all enjoy the rush of being right and predicting things accurately. That's why so many gamble, I find it strange that this game attracts so much attention for stuff that does not involve what the game is.

IMPORTANT EDIT: Don't answer its too baiting. Above is my opinion of many SC haters.
 
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preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,761
60
91
Alright please don't take this as an insult its not meant to be one.

As a hypothetical what result are you looking for?
1) A more complete experience now for backers?
2) A complete game that has nearly everything that was promised sometime in the reasonable future
3) Same as above but now
4) The satisfaction of being right about SC being a scam?

This part may not apply to you prelove, I have a feeling that many of the skeptics are really looking to brag about being right or enjoy the theoretical tears from someone who spent hundreds/thousands on backing SC.
Point is we all enjoy the rush of being right and predicting things accurately. That's why so many gamble, I find it strange that this game attracts so much attention for stuff that does not involve what the game is.

IMPORTANT EDIT: Don't answer its too baiting. Above is my opinion of many SC haters.
I sincerely believe that the project is beyond repair. I think it is irresponsible for people in a public forum to trumpet a failed project that trades on people's nostalgia to get them to pay ridiculous amounts of money on images of space craft that haven't even been programmed. I don't hate anyone involved in this game, as they are far from the worst people in the whole world. I criticize it in this public forum in order to warn people from scammed. I think this started off as a legitimate project, but it turned entered scam territory a while ago.

But, beyond that, there are a lot of interesting things going on with SC. Star Citizen is about so much more than a failed video game project, and when it does implode, it's going to be a huge story that will get major mainstream and business press attention.You have the whole issue of business "disruption" with crowdfunding, which is a big, current social phenomenon. Business failures and consumer fraud are fascinating, in themselves. Scope creep destroying promising projects is a major business issue that is really interesting, especially for video games (duke nukem forever, anyone?).

You also have all these weird personalities involved. Chris Roberts and Derek Smart are so strange, Sandi and Ben, too. Tracking CR's career from games, to movies, to selling cars, and back to this game project is fun. I didn't know who Smart was until last year, and he's such a ridiculous character, that it makes this whole thing even more fun.

There will be a very entertaining book that comes out of all this drama. I've gone long lengths of time not paying attention to or commenting on it, but it's fun to keep tabs (occasionally) on it as it happens. I pay way less attention to it, and comment far less than I do politics and other news. But, I'm so critical because people might see threads on this project and get sucked into it for hundreds or thousands of dollars.
 
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Skel

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2001
6,063
357
136
I sincerely believe that the project is beyond repair. I think it is irresponsible for people in a public forum to trumpet a failed project that trades on people's nostalgia to get them to pay ridiculous amounts of money on images of space craft that haven't even been programmed. I don't hate anyone involved in this game, as they are far from the worst people in the whole world. I criticize it in this public forum in order to warn people from scammed. I think this started off as a legitimate project, but it turned entered scam territory a while ago.

But, beyond that, there are a lot of interesting things going on with SC. Star Citizen is about so much more than a failed video game project, and when it does implode, it's going to be a huge story that will get major mainstream and business press attention.You have the whole issue of business "disruption" with crowdfunding, which is a big, current social phenomenon. Business failures and consumer fraud are fascinating, in themselves. Scope creep destroying promising projects is a major business issue that is really interesting, especially for video games (duke nukem forever, anyone?).

You also have all these weird personalities involved. Chris Roberts and Derek Smart are so strange, Sandi and Ben, too. Tracking CR's career from games, to movies, to selling cars, and back to this game project is fun. I didn't know who Smart was until last year, and he's such a ridiculous character, that it makes this whole thing even more fun.

There will be a very entertaining book that comes out of all this drama. I've gone long lengths of time not paying attention to or commenting on it, but it's fun to keep tabs (occasionally) on it as it happens. I pay way less attention to it, and comment far less than I do politics and other news. But, I'm so critical because people might see threads on this project and get sucked into it for hundreds or thousands of dollars.
I don't think Smart is the most trustworthy person in the drama, but he probably is the most entertaining. I'm not sure this saga would have been anywhere near as interesting without him.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,415
3,940
126
I think a lot of pro sc people try to silence dissent because they feel if people dont keep giving money that their investment is gone. Well their investment is gone but sunk cost fallacy is a strong pull and they will constantly re-frame things to keep things positive. There will be a lot to study about human rationalization and "logic" once this is over.
 

rivethead

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2005
2,558
83
91
I don't think Smart is the most trustworthy person in the drama, but he probably is the most entertaining. I'm not sure this saga would have been anywhere near as interesting without him.
He's only entertaining if people allow him to be. Once he started attacking Chris Roberts family and making accusations of racisms, he stopped being "entertaining". At least to me.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,415
3,940
126
Normally you don't flesh out your graphic elements until you have your game design fleshed out. Because you could be burning money building assets that won't go anywhere. But we have cig and their 160 million so burn away.
 

Skel

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2001
6,063
357
136
Guide to getting a refund. It is disturbing that things like this need to exist. One would think that getting a refund on something that's as far past it's original due date as this would be simple.
 

Skel

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2001
6,063
357
136
The fact that most people voted for guide to refunds instead Delivery on stretch goals says a lot of how people are sick of waiting for final release.
I noticed that too.. It's odd as I can't tell what most people that funded this are thinking. We get a this, but then Sabrewings tells me that most of hte people voted the delay of the game was OK as it would be a better game for it.. of course I'm not sure when that voting was done. Regardless though, it's interesting that there seems to be more and more trouble for this effort.

Once we hit a bank run things will get VERY interesting.
I still remain torn on it. On one hand I'd really hate to see people get screwed over and lose money. They put their money hoping for an awesome game and most I'd say, don't deserve to be screwed. On the other hand though... it would be a very interesting chapter of the story if they did go down. I can't help but think if it happened there would be an aftermath of future crowd funding of games.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,415
3,940
126
oh they got screwed. Thats the elephant in the room. I have $40 in this thing since october 2012
 

Skel

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2001
6,063
357
136
As someone before sad in this thread, it would be fair for both parties to give proof. When Jstorm says something, people attack him for proof, when he puts jpg, they attack him with date when that jpg was made. If he would put date of jpg, they would attack him with what designer made this. And if he would gave proof what designer made that jpg, he would be attacked that they need a proof that jpg is not fake...

I think that if this applies for jstorm, then the same needs to apply for those who defend star citizen, or cig. Give me screen shot of voting. :)




I would like for game to be finished just cause I hate when people lose their money when other is screwing with them.

I like good written posts from "attackers" of cig, and i like good written posts from "defenders" of cig. I don't like if someone try to humiliate other forum member with their posts...
After all, I love Guiness, you like Heineken we can still drink together.
That was me that said both sides should provide links. Sabrewings has been really good about doing it. I've learned more from those links so I've nothing but good things to say about him doing it.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,415
3,940
126
http://eq2wire.com/2017/01/05/closing-the-book-on-everquest-next-and-landmark/

everquest next post cancel article

Notice the bullet points and how those reflect to how cig is designing...
  1. The fate of EQNext/Landmark was sealed early on by design decisions and (despite having so many years under its belt of abandoned effort) rushed development and being announced before anything concrete had been planned or tested.
  2. Carte blanche was given to a few decision makers based only on a cult of personality, resulting in minimal experienced critical analysis of ongoing work.
  3. Despite promises of an open development process, interaction with customers completely ceased, with each game update being a complete surprise.


 

GoodRevrnd

Diamond Member
Dec 27, 2001
6,725
452
126
EQN always seemed pretty botched from the get go. Then Daybreak took that hot mess of a company and turned into an even hotter mess. H1Z1 was a complete joke basically from about 3 months after EA launch through present.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,415
3,940
126
EQN always seemed pretty botched from the get go. Then Daybreak took that hot mess of a company and turned into an even hotter mess. H1Z1 was a complete joke basically from about 3 months after EA launch through present.
I agree. I feel the same way about cig as they hit all those same bullet points.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,165
208
106
Alpha
See also: Alpha release
Alpha is the stage when key gameplay functionality is implemented, and assets are partially finished.[153] A game in alpha is feature complete, that is, game is playable and contains all the major features.[154] These features may be further revised based on testing and feedback.[153] Additional small, new features may be added, similarly planned, but unimplemented features may be dropped.[154] Programmers focus mainly on finishing the codebase, rather than implementing additions.[152] Alpha occurs eight to ten months before code release,[153] but this can vary significantly based on the scope of content and assets any given game has.


Star citizen is not feature complete. It is pre-alpha still. You dont even know if the total mix of design choices are fun yet.
First off, the link you posted initially for this has completely different wording than your post.

The alpha phase of the release life cycle is the first phase to begin software testing (alpha is the first letter of the Greek alphabet, used as the number 1). In this phase, developers generally test the software using white-box techniques. Additional validation is then performed using black-box or gray-box techniques, by another testing team. Moving to black-box testing inside the organization is known as alpha release.[1]

Alpha software can be unstable and could cause crashes or data loss. Alpha software may not contain all of the features that are planned for the final version. In general, external availability of alpha software is uncommon in proprietary software, while open source software often has publicly available alpha versions. The alpha phase usually ends with a feature freeze, indicating that no more features will be added to the software. At this time, the software is said to be feature complete.
As a developer myself I can tell you that alpha tests are done with a very small group of users usually, not a huge playerbase, and is rarely feature complete. I've alpha tested many applications and games over my lifetime including some RPG games like Everquest, Asheron's Call, and a few others. I can also tell you that I've never seen an alpha release test sequence that was feature complete. In fact, most of the time the alpha testing is designed to specifically get feedback to decide upon features for the product based on some preliminary features in the demo to see if the current features work, what doesn't work, and what has to be changed.

Saying SC is in alpha is currently the correct term. Per-alpha would be internal testing only. Since there is some user group testing it is considered alpha. Now BETA tends to be more feature complete.

But for those that would like other sources on the definition of Alpha testing.

https://www.centercode.com/blog/2011/01/alpha-vs-beta-testing/

http://istqbexamcertification.com/what-is-alpha-testing/

http://www.softwaretestinghelp.com/what-is-alpha-testing-beta-testing/

In fact I can't find a single link in the first 10 pages on google when searching for "alpha testing software" that state that an alpha test has to be feature complete at the time the test is being run.

In fact, they all practically state it is the first form of in-house acceptance testing with some bits of user testing of feature sets to see if the work for the users. Most alpha tests are meant to be buggy, not all assets put in place, and not all features implemented either.
 
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Feb 4, 2009
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We're missing an important point about EQ Next which can be taken as a pro or con.
Development stopped because it wasn't generating much interest or potential money and the mostly complete beta version was deemed "not fun" per the developers who tried it. Add to it that Smidley(spelling?) and SOE have a history of screwing things up with last minute changes.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,165
208
106
We're missing an important point about EQ Next which can be taken as a pro or con.
Development stopped because it wasn't generating much interest or potential money and the mostly complete beta version was deemed "not fun" per the developers who tried it. Add to it that Smidley(spelling?) and SOE have a history of screwing things up with last minute changes.
Truth be told, the original Everquest wasn't very fun either even before SoE took it over. It only did well because there was literally no competition at the time in the market place.
 

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