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SSD need help on a question. **Update - Install Results**

T

TR2000

Member
Hi guys the last system I built was like around 5 years ago and need to install a new HD in this system but have a question on a SSD. I want to put a single Intel X25 80GB G2 below in but have a question.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820167023


System
Win 7 64
AMD 3400
2GB ram PC3200
MB DFI LanParty NF3250
Sata
I have no AHCI setting in Bios.

Would the following be correct, I am assuming I can still install this SSD (without AHCI) and this drive will work without a problem other than I it might not be at full performance in some areas but still noticeable faster than my Seagate 250GB 7200 8mb sata drive in most areas?

One other question is anyone running the above SSD on an older similar board without AHCI and how was the peformance vs your older sata drive?

Thanks!
 
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I read a thread before about a guy who used his X25-M in IDE only. I was about 90% of the top speed his would have gotten if he used AHCI. Then again, older southbridge controllers also limit speed, so maybe the IDE mode wasn't the real cause. Bottom line, you won't notice much difference.
 
taltamir said:
no AHCI = no TRIM.
i really suggest upgrading the whole system
Click to expand...


lol I know my system is old but surprised myself it still works well for what I use it for and is the reason for not upgrading yet. Thinking maybe in a year or two I will upgrade. I need to get another HD so thought maybe a SSD I would see and feel a performance pick up but sounds like you guys are saying I wouldn’t on my sata MB with no AHCI vs my old hd. It’s a little confusing in my research just started to research about SSD's the other day since I didn't know much about SSD’s. I read on OCZ site on their SSD to disable AHCI wonder why they say that.

Also confusing you say AHCI = no trim but I have read I can run trim on a MB with no AHCI by using optimizer in toolbox on auto scheduling or manually would this be true? But you guys say I am not going to see noticeable performance increase without AHCI vs. my old sata HD and I should just pick another sata hd instead of a SSD.
 
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SSDs, with or without AHCI (and thus TRIM) will still blow any mechanical HDDs out of the water. Consider the following (horrible) analogy:

Running a SSD compared to running a mechanical hard drive is like showing up at a race track and driving some flavor of sports car (SSD) versus jogging on foot (HDD). Using a motherboard or other hardware the limits your SSD's maximum speed (SATA-150 speeds only, etc.) is like forcing yourself to only drive that sports car at, say, 50% of it's potential speed. It's STILL going to finish hours ahead of the jogger. Using a SSD in IDE mode (and thus no TRIM) is like not being able to fix damage caused to the car along the way, not being able to put on new tires, and being forced to slow down to compensate for the lack of performance and safety. The car will still be much, much faster than the jogger, but it won't be nearly as fast as it was at the beginning of the race.

So, you would see a noticeable improvement from adding a SSD to your system, depending on what you do with it. The biggest improvement is general OS snappiness - programs that normally tool several seconds to load often load in a second or two, or sometimes instantly. Searches are faster, copying files can be faster (depending on the I/O performance of your old HDD), etc. Whether or not there's another method of garbage collection available for you depends on the drive and related software. I can't remember if Intel drives allow you to use their SSD optimization toolbox in IDE mode / without Windows 7 (I think so, but not sure), and I have no idea about OCZ / other Indilinx drives.

The biggest thing you'll need to take into consideration is price and capacity. Usually people buy a SSD and stick the OS and primary applications (Office, Photoshop, etc.) onto it, but install their collection of games (if too large), music, movies, documents, etc. on a secondary HDD instead. As long as your current 250GB HDD is still working well, you could use that for the secondary HDD (with an external backup, of course!)
 
CurseTheSky thanks for the good analagy sounds like I will see and feel a difference even with my old MB. So even without AHCI /trim I will see and feel a nice performace improvement in ares mentioned (vs sata spindle HD) and with trim (but without AHCI) even a little more performance on my system vs no trim. But not at full speed like on a AHCI MB got it thanks!

Ok below from Intel forum is where I read (if true) I can run trim on the X25 SSD without a AHCI capable MB which will help even more on my MB.

If sticking with your present MB, you could use the Optimizer in Toolbox that runs the TRIM automatically by scheduling or you can run it manually to keep your drive to specs, or at least close to specs and no need to worry about longetivity. After installing Windows 7, just make sure Defrag is turned off.
Click to expand...

Post#2
http://communities.intel.com/thread/8243;jsessionid=199EA23747A2E1E045A6DEC2EFF1BCA8.node5COMS
 
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Just ordered the X25 G2 (1-Nippon SATA I/II cable) from Newegg looking foward to to getting this drive to see how it performs on my old system will be doing a fresh install of my Win 7 64bit.

I have to research what needs to be done but from memory I know of the following anything else you guys recommend? Anyone Know if these drives are shipping with the lastest firmware?

1.Turn off defrag
2.Turn off system restore
3. Set trim to auto scheduling
4. Run tool once a week
5. Check firmware

TIA
 
TR2000 said:
Just ordered the X25 G2 (1-Nippon SATA I/II cable) from Newegg looking foward to to getting this drive to see how it performs on my old system will be doing a fresh install of my Win 7 64bit.

I have to research what needs to be done but from memory I know of the following anything else you guys recommend? Anyone Know if these drives are shipping with the lastest firmware?

1.Turn off defrag
2.Turn off system restore
3. Set trim to auto scheduling
4. Run tool once a week
5. Check firmware

TIA
Click to expand...

If it's important to you, don't turn off system restore. Your SSD has more than enough write cycles, don't worry!

Doesn't really matter if you run TRIM or not. If you're using msahci driver, which you should, it will auto TRIM everytime you delete a file.

You won't notice any difference whether you run the tool or not. In most cases, not only won't you notice a difference, you simply can't.

Yes do update the firmware.
 
TRIM is only a command that is passed down the ATA stack. It will work equally well in AHCI and IDE mode. The default MS Win7 drivers pass the TRIM command in both modes.

If Intel done something to disable TRIM in IDE mode, then they are the only ones to do this, as in all other brands of SSD that support TRIM, it will TRIM in IDE or AHCI mode.
 
TR2000 said:
Just ordered the X25 G2 (1-Nippon SATA I/II cable) from Newegg looking foward to to getting this drive to see how it performs on my old system will be doing a fresh install of my Win 7 64bit.

I have to research what needs to be done but from memory I know of the following anything else you guys recommend? Anyone Know if these drives are shipping with the lastest firmware?

1.Turn off defrag
2.Turn off system restore
3. Set trim to auto scheduling
4. Run tool once a week
5. Check firmware

TIA
Click to expand...

windows 7 automatically turns off defrag for you on SSDs while leaving it on HDD (and its an intelligent minimalistic defrag too, normal defrag is unnecessary even on HDD; I really approve of what MS did there), and you don't need to turn off system restore.
4 is not needed if you did 3.
5 is a must... do that first.

I liked CurseTheSky's analogy. Just keep in mind that some tasks are like traveling on the highway, where having a car vs walking makes a world of difference. Others are like driving vs walking 100 feet to hand off a package to a guy who must then go through airport security (CPU, GPU, etc) whose speed is fixed and that takes a while to travel through.
aka... the SSD will certainly help a lot in areas where HDD responsiveness is an issue, but it will not help at all in some other areas. Still, a great and worthwhile upgrade
 
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Ok thanks to your suggestions and help guys looks like I'm just about set on what to do on intall for my new to do list for install for the G2. I was thinking since this is going to be the only HD internal in my system (+ext WD HD) was to turn off system restore (keeps 4 restores?) to save free disk space on my HD? So no need to turn on trim as it is in the newer G2 SSD's - firmware and I will have trim even on my MB and now understand more about trim and what it does also now know defrag will automatically be disabled.

Install to do.
1. Check firmware. Think old is 02HA latest is 02HD?
2. Leave system restore on for now.
3. One thing I am not sure on will I need to still run tool app once a week on a G2 02HD and if so can I set it on a auto setting or do I have manually do it?


Anyone know or hear of the G2’s shipping lately with the latest firmware?
 
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If you're using Windows 7, 100% if will detect Intel's X25M G2 as an SSD. If you did not install Intel Matrix Storage manager, then then your HDD driver will be msahci. If you did install IMSM before, then you will have to uninstall it and set it to msahci. If you're using IDE, leave it as it is.

On msahci, when you delete a file from your computer, Windows will tell the SSD that the file is delete and thus those storage block the file was using can be reset. If Windows doesn't do this. The SSD will have to read the blocks first, determine it isn't in use, reset em then write on it. Sounds like a long process but it only degrades write speed by about 30%, you can't even notice it.

You don't have to set it to auto, Windows will automatically enable it. You don't even need the SSD toolbox for this to work. You can always check it using a cmd command. Takes a second to enable it.

If you're the paranoid type, you can just install the toolbox and run it whenever you want. It takes a few second if you don't have any restore points. However, if you have restore points, it could anywhere from 30 minutes to a few hours to complete depending on the size of your restore points.
 
it couldn't hurt to run the app, it takes 2 seconds to do its thing (and can be scheduled to do so automatically with one click) and it does not hurt it all.
if everything is working as it should then it will provide no further benefit, if something isn't right, it could help.
 
Beautiful_Life said:
If you're using Windows 7, 100% if will detect Intel's X25M G2 as an SSD. If you did not install Intel Matrix Storage manager, then then your HDD driver will be msahci. If you did install IMSM before, then you will have to uninstall it and set it to msahci. If you're using IDE, leave it as it is.

On msahci, when you delete a file from your computer, Windows will tell the SSD that the file is delete and thus those storage block the file was using can be reset. If Windows doesn't do this. The SSD will have to read the blocks first, determine it isn't in use, reset em then write on it. Sounds like a long process but it only degrades write speed by about 30%, you can't even notice it.

You don't have to set it to auto, Windows will automatically enable it. You don't even need the SSD toolbox for this to work. You can always check it using a cmd command. Takes a second to enable it.

If you're the paranoid type, you can just install the toolbox and run it whenever you want. It takes a few second if you don't have any restore points. However, if you have restore points, it could anywhere from 30 minutes to a few hours to complete depending on the size of your restore points.
Click to expand...

My Intel SSD will be Wednesday so will be doing the install then and will let it default msahic and will not be installing IMSM. Yes I read the Intel the PDF toolbox file from Intel site and like you said it will be auto trim I believe and got it on the storage blocks and how automatically it should will read and remove the deleted data blocks automatically. One of you points I am not sure is this. Are you saying that if I have restore on running msahi without using toolbox it will trim in a matter of minutes to ID and remove those deleted blocks but if I run toolbox with restore points on just to be certain trim has run then it could take a matter 30 minutes to few hours?

So if that’s the case then either I trust (w/old MB no mshci support ) trim is running automatically under msahci with restore on or if I don't trust it (unless I have proof somehow it is/yes paranoid type here 🙂 ) is to set restore off (so no 30min-3hr wait) after install and schedule toolbox optimizer once a week and or manually do it then.

I am thinking if I have no visual proof under mashi showing of trim I am thinking after install I will turn off restore and leave it off so I can schedule toolbox and or do it manually once a week so I know for sure. I Have to think on this and once the drive is installed and I get some experience with it if I trust or know the auto trim is running if so then leave restore on depending how HD space SR it is taking up.

Hey thanks guys again for all the help I knew nothing about these drives until just last week so you guys have been very helpful! After about week using this drive with my old MB/system I'll post back on this thread how it performed. I been statring to time eveything, open PS 6.0-12 sec, boot up 45-50 sec, open AVS Video Editor -25 sec, 5.8 HD Win 7 WEI , PC tools spy anti scan, COD, MOH PA, UT, NFSPU etc so will be cool to see how much this SSD helps on an old non supported achi 5yr old MB-system. 🙂
 
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If your old motherboard has only IDE mode, then msachi is not the drive you will using. I'm not sure what driver Windows will load for you. From what I hear, only msahci will do auto trim.

I think you're abit confused as to what I mean by auto trim. My auto trim means everytime you delete a file, Windows will tell your SSD to free up the blocks that file occupied. This has nothing to with with Intel's SSD toolbox program.

What Intel's SSD toolbox program does is look for all the block of data on the SSD which are not zeroed. Then it matches them to something, which I'm guessing the MFT. So if there are data blocks with data on it that doesn't belong to any file, means that file has been deleted. Then those data blocks will be "emptied" and readied for writing. The auto trim you see in the PDF for the SSD toolbox just mean scheduling the program to run at your preferred interval.

Mind you, I'm not using all the exact terms and technical explanation here, just making it simple.

The problem with having Windows Restore points is that Windows Restore uses some kind of property of the NTFS formatting to restore data to it's previous states and whatever other mechanism that I'm not bothered to find out. This poses somekind of problem to the was Intel's SSD toolbox works. Previously, when trim is run, all your restore points will be lost. So if you have Restore points, then the latest SSD toolbox will carefully check which blocks are in use by the restore points (cause I suppose they don't really correspond to any file on the MFT). This process takes extremely long. My first run took about 2 hours and the second took so long I canceled it. I don't use Windows Restore so I deleted all the restore points and turned off the service.
 
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Beautiful_Life said:
If your old motherboard has only IDE mode, then msachi is not the drive you will using. I'm not sure what driver Windows will load for you. From what I hear, only msahci will do auto trim.

I think you're abit confused as to what I mean by auto trim. My auto trim means everytime you delete a file, Windows will tell your SSD to free up the blocks that file occupied. This has nothing to with with Intel's SSD toolbox program.

What Intel's SSD toolbox program does is look for all the block of data on the SSD which are not zeroed. Then it matches them to something, which I'm guessing the MFT. So if there are data blocks with data on it that doesn't belong to any file, means that file has been deleted. Then those data blocks will be "emptied" and readied for writing. The auto trim you see in the PDF for the SSD toolbox just mean scheduling the program to run at your preferred interval.

Mind you, I'm not using all the exact terms and technical explanation here, just making it simple.

The problem with having Windows Restore points is that Windows Restore uses some kind of property of the NTFS formatting to restore data to it's previous states and whatever other mechanism that I'm not bothered to find out. This poses somekind of problem to the was Intel's SSD toolbox works. Previously, when trim is run, all your restore points will be lost. So if you have Restore points, then the latest SSD toolbox will carefully check which blocks are in use by the restore points (cause I suppose they don't really correspond to any file on the MFT). This process takes extremely long. My first run took about 2 hours and the second took so long I canceled it. I don't use Windows Restore so I deleted all the restore points and turned off the service.
Click to expand...

Ok sounds like I am confused 🙂 I thought it would load as a msachi drive per your post #12 even though my MB (My MB 2 IDE & 4 SATA w/Nvidia Raid ) isn't supported. So would not have full achi support but thinking I would have auto trim so every time I delete a file it would free up those deleted blocks which what I thought toobox did if I did it manually or on a auto schedule but is not the case (per tool box)then which was my confusion I believe.

So here is what I am just going to do till I understand this SSD and how it works. I am going check firmware and update if 02HA to 02HD. Just fresh install WIN 7 and let it load the drivers for the SSD automatically. Once install is done I will disable system restore (since it takes that long running TB) and double check that defrag is disabled which it is suppose be done automatically and will install toolbox and run it once a week. Ive been out of computers since my last build in 05 so need to catch up on this tech . 🙂

Thanks
 
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Hi guys installed my X25 G2 today and I am happy so far with the performance improvement seeing an all around improvement it made on this older 5 year old non supporting ahci MB VS my Seagate 72K spindle drive. Just some quick thoughts and numbers after install incase anyone is considering installing on an old non supporting ahci MB system and was wondering what they would see. Install and firmware update to 02HD was a breeze no problems. I installed tool box and ran optimizer and it ran trim and passed took about 1:45 sec with restore enabled but of course fresh install today so really only 1-2 small (Win 7 update) restore points. It took about 1 second with system restore disabled. I just did it to see if it worked and ran trim which it did. IMO witout a doubt it is worth upgrading on an 5 old system/MB performance wise so if you are in need of a HD and have an old system it is worth considering a SSD.


MB & HD
DFI Lanparty NF3 250GB 5yrs old.
HD Seagate 250GB 7200rpm 8mb

-----------------------Old HD -------------------------SSD X25 G2
Open PS 6.0----------- 12sec----------------------------3sec
Open AVS Video Editor—25sec----------------------------10sec
Win 7 HD index------------5.8-----------------------------7.1
Boot up----------------45-50sec-------------------------30-35sec
Win 7 Install
& Format------------Don’t remember----------------------21 minutes

Thanks again guys for all the help with my questions. 🙂


It looks so small in the case 🙂
ssD.jpg
 
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So it seems that AHCI does make a big difference in SSD performance.

I too have just received and installed the Intel X25-M 80GB G2 SSD that I bought. My motherboard has AHCI support, so I turned it on before an OS reinstall.

WEI HDD score is 7.7, and Photoshop launches in under 2 seconds.

TR2000: did you do something special after your OS install? My Intel SSD Optimizer pass took much longer than yours (~3-5 minutes). Though this is with some applications installed (30GB used).
 
Jd007 said:
So it seems that AHCI does make a big difference in SSD performance.

I too have just received and installed the Intel X25-M 80GB G2 SSD that I bought. My motherboard has AHCI support, so I turned it on before an OS reinstall.

WEI HDD score is 7.7, and Photoshop launches in under 2 seconds.

TR2000: did you do something special after your OS install? My Intel SSD Optimizer pass took much longer than yours (~3-5 minutes). Though this is with some applications installed (30GB used).
Click to expand...



JD congrats on the SSD just an extra cool upgrade (size & performance) to me for some reason. 🙂 No I did not do anything (other than 02HD update) special. I loaded Win 7 did all the updates then loaded toolbox and ran optimizer to make sure (visually proof) it worked on my system. I believe I only had around 10GB used on my SSD at the time with one small restore point. So I assume due your 30GB and restore points is the reason yours took a little longer. I left SR disable as of now debating whether to leave it disabled or enabled but I am leaning toward disabled but haven't decided yet

What was your HD setup and WEI score before your install of the SSD?
 
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I had an almost 5-years old 400GB Hitachi SATA 7200 RPM, which got a 5.5 in WEI. My HDD went from being the slowest component in my system to the fastest after the upgrade. I updated to the 02HD firmware as well, before my OS install.

BTW what is SR?
 
Jd007 said:
I had an almost 5-years old 400GB Hitachi SATA 7200 RPM, which got a 5.5 in WEI. My HDD went from being the slowest component in my system to the fastest after the upgrade. I updated to the 02HD firmware as well, before my OS install.

BTW what is SR?
Click to expand...

I meant system restore by SR.

Nodoubt very nice improvement on your system. When I was updating the firmware I read that sentence during the update this firmware could make you SSD inoperable and Intel will not warranty the drive or words to that effect if read that right. Thinking to myself well if this happens I just send the drive back to old reliable Newegg for an exchange. 🙂
 
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