SSD caching a HDD is a worthless gimmick

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LokutusofBorg

Golden Member
Mar 20, 2001
1,065
0
76
You are absolutely being stubborn about this. You are casually discarding legitimate counter-points because they are generic or don't fit your narrowed definition of what would qualify.

I will say it again. *All* use cases would benefit from using SRT over an HDD alone. You can't say that doesn't qualify because you only want to compare SRT to SDD + HDD. You are saying SRT is worthless, therefore you have to examine the whole spectrum. That's why I said you're being sensationalistic.

My list of use cases that you summarily dismissed with nary a thought *is* your answer, because guess what? They can all happen on the same computer. I am a software developer, I work with databases, I do graphics work, I do video editing, 3D stuff, and I have a crapload of games installed. Any time anybody has a dataset they can't fit on the SSD, and they're not willing to do the manual shuffle, then SRT makes sense.

I really don't see how you can keep on with this...
 

michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
43
91
you are being stubborn.

1tb hd + 64gb cache = 95% the speed of an ssd, with 100% of the space of a harddrive. and ZERO% of the work you do.

ps. that setup costs ~50 for the harddrive, ~100 for a QUALITY ssd like a curical m4.

150 gets you what quality ssd drive? OCZ drives dont count unless you like gambling with your data.
 

bunnyfubbles

Lifer
Sep 3, 2001
12,248
3
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No, you are wrong about that.
I am NOT talking about hibernate file, pagefile, and the like. I am talking about windows itself.
You cannot cut that.
the various tweaks to control the size is to prevent it from taking 30-40GB.
That doesn't include the programs that come with windows (like internet explorer and windows media player), because they are not a part of the OS. I was only measuring the size of the OS itself.

no, you are wrong about that:

http://blog.corsair.com/?p=3989
 

Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
11,684
5,228
136
horse.gif
 

MobiusPizza

Platinum Member
Apr 23, 2004
2,001
0
0
you are being stubborn.

1tb hd + 64gb cache = 95% the speed of an ssd, with 100% of the space of a harddrive. and ZERO% of the work you do.

ps. that setup costs ~50 for the harddrive, ~100 for a QUALITY ssd like a curical m4.

150 gets you what quality ssd drive? OCZ drives dont count unless you like gambling with your data.

Sorry to chime in but the 95% of the speed of an SSD is highly debatable, it depends greatly on workload patterns as everything to do with caches. Anything from 0-100% is possible. I think 95% is very optimistic.
 

Penski

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2011
2
0
0
As somebody who had NO IDEA that SSD caching HDD technology existed..somebody who is thinking about building a new performance system for the first time in 6 years, and as somebody who has an interest in computer hardware and new technologies - the sounds of this caching seem fantastic.


Really?? I just buy an SSD, pair it with my compulsory storage HDD - and I can use the SSD to increase the speed of my HDD by more than 10%??? Thats fantastic!! Where can I read more about this technology and how much does it cost?
 

Diogenes2

Platinum Member
Jul 26, 2001
2,151
0
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taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
76
My list of use cases that you summarily dismissed with nary a thought *is* your answer, because guess what? They can all happen on the same computer. I am a software developer, I work with databases, I do graphics work, I do video editing, 3D stuff, and I have a crapload of games installed. Any time anybody has a dataset they can't fit on the SSD, and they're not willing to do the manual shuffle, then SRT makes sense.

I didn't dismiss your list of use cases with nary a thought. I thought about it and realized you are incorrect in thinking SSD improves performance on those.
You seem to be very confused and optimistic about what this technology can do, it isn't magic.

Every case that I dismissed, I included a full justification with.
 

groberts101

Golden Member
Mar 17, 2011
1,390
0
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Sorry to chime in but the 95% of the speed of an SSD is highly debatable, it depends greatly on workload patterns as everything to do with caches. Anything from 0-100% is possible. I think 95% is very optimistic.


DING, DING, DING!.. Give that man the door prize! :p

If you use the same data over and over again?.. well of course SRT will help a measly HDD's speeds.

If your workload is involving larger files?(such as HD vids).. or constantly changing/evolving over a weekly basis? Good luck seeing that 95% improvement with any consistency using a smaller cache. Simple as that.
 

Penski

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2011
2
0
0

GotNoRice

Senior member
Aug 14, 2000
329
5
81
I clearly said a 120GB SSD alongside a mechanical drive. Just not configured as a cache.
20GB intel cache SSD = 120$
32GB OCZ cache SSD = 155$
120GB latest gen sandforce = 170$
HDD =~ 50$

You also "Clearly said":
No, I am taking money into account. I am discussing the benefits at no extra monetary cost.

In reality it's more like:
40GB Sandforce SSD : $85
~1TB HDD : $50

vs.

120GB SSD : ~$170
~1TB HDD : $50

so much for "no extra monetary cost" I guess? Though it will be interesting to see how you are going to change your argument once again to skirt around being wrong.

It's also doubtful 120gb would actually be enough for all your apps/games in the long term.

PS. I would like to just throw out that it takes about an hour to install one of the modern heavy games to the HDD and its several times faster installing the SSD.

Hmmm, let's think about that for a moment... Games are either going to be installed from a disc or from an online service such as Steam. It's not going to install faster than it can be read from the source. The fact you are willing to throw out such a silly claim just shows how little thought you are putting into some of your arguments.

No, you are wrong about that.
I am NOT talking about hibernate file, pagefile, and the like. I am talking about windows itself.
You cannot cut that.
the various tweaks to control the size is to prevent it from taking 30-40GB.
That doesn't include the programs that come with windows (like internet explorer and windows media player), because they are not a part of the OS. I was only measuring the size of the OS itself.

So basically, tons more shit I don't have to deal with because I went with SSD caching instead. Good to know.

I resent this. I am not being stubborn at all.

lol

Although I am concerned at just how much performance are you going to get out of a 20GB cache SSD with windows taking up 17.2GB for system files alone (not including bundled programs, pagefile,etc), installed programs, and hundreds of gigs of games.

Why would you think it's caching the entire OS? An OS install includes tons of files that are NOT used on a daily basis. That is one of the benefits of SSD caching, because you can have your OS on there without it caching all the random irrelevant files that are nearly never accessed.

In addition, technologies like SRT don't have to cache entire files, it caches individual blocks. If you have a 2GB file and you only read a few hundred megs out of that file - only those few hundred megs would be cached.

Sorry to chime in but the 95% of the speed of an SSD is highly debatable, it depends greatly on workload patterns as everything to do with caches. Anything from 0-100% is possible. I think 95% is very optimistic.

It might be, but the point is that the performance difference (at least in terms of Gaming) is tiny.

Here are some good benchmarks:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4329/intel-z68-chipset-smart-response-technology-ssd-caching-review/4

I know that with WoW the difference between an SSD and a HDD is night and day, yet I can't tell the difference between running WoW on my SSD directly or my cached hard drive using that same SSD. My boot times also clearly fell within SSD territory within 2 reboots of enabling the cache.

I didn't dismiss your list of use cases with nary a thought. I thought about it and realized you are incorrect in thinking SSD improves performance on those.
You seem to be very confused and optimistic about what this technology can do, it isn't magic.

It's funny you would take that viewpoint - coming here talking to us most of which actually use the tech we're discussing. You admit you've never used it yet you feel justified telling us that the performance gains we see first hand aren't real - get over yourself. You are wrong and now you're acting like a little kid about it.
 
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KingFatty

Diamond Member
Dec 29, 2010
3,034
1
81
How critical to the argument is the assumption that you never fill up your (non-cached) SSD?

I think it's a different argument if you assume away all the trouble involved with facing the eventual problem of having to decide what you are going to delete off your SSD to make room for whatever else you are going to put on, because you've reached the capacity of the SSD. It's a pain to uninstall and reinstall over and over again... I'd never want to uninstall something if I knew I needed to access it 3 weeks later and knew I'd have to reinstall at that time.

Or maybe that's the essence of the argument - SRT is stupid when your usage never approaches the capacity of your SSD? The value of SRT is when you need to access installed information that wouldn't fit on the SSD because your usage scenario involves accessing lots of different programs?

I like that user's should develop good practices to avoid unecessarily filling up their SSDs with useless installs, but I cannot discount the likelihood that someone will eventually reach a "full SSD" point, yet they don't want to uninstall anything off their SSD because they use all those things now and then. If they have something else they want to install, they have to make a hard choice to uninstall something they know they'll use. And I think that might happen without fringe scenarios, especially if someone say uses their computer for work and play. You can't criticize someone for wanting to have that usage scenario, it just makes the most sense for them. For them, SRT would save them time because they'd avoid the tedious install/uninstall shuffling that will be inevitable for them. The SRT would be an efficiency booster to save them time and hassle. For someone that bills their time, you could even assign a dollar value to what SRT would save them.
 
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SocalMark

Member
Oct 10, 2011
36
0
0
Decided would like to try this just not sure how to get my OS from the 120ssd to my 2TB drive any help would be appreciated...Thanks
 

Diogenes2

Platinum Member
Jul 26, 2001
2,151
0
0
Just run the " Image Back-Up " application in Win7 and restore to the 2TB ..

Of course you will need a 3rd drive that is 120gb or larger for the back-up ..
 

SocalMark

Member
Oct 10, 2011
36
0
0
Sorry about that backing up tried two other drives and get the same message.

error 0x81000019
 

videopho

Diamond Member
Apr 8, 2005
4,185
29
91
I've never had any luck running back up image on two of my Win 7 systems, one being a desktop and laptop for another.
One time the rig froze 1/3 way into imaging.
Then came Acronis to the rescue each time.
So I just don't bother with it any more.
 

SocalMark

Member
Oct 10, 2011
36
0
0
With the Acronis free trial could I do the same as windows backup or do I have to buy the Paid version?

Sorry about going off-topic.
 
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Diogenes2

Platinum Member
Jul 26, 2001
2,151
0
0
Just so I understand: You are using the " Create A System Image" tool, and not just " Backup " ?


I've used the ' Image ' back-up tool many times to move my system from drive to drive ..
The only time I had a problem was when the destination drive was smaller than the image I was trying to move..
 

SocalMark

Member
Oct 10, 2011
36
0
0
Yes using the Create system image, I'm sure it's a windows update that is stopping me from using it.