Squats with tight hamstrings/hips

[apac]

I'm currently cross training for a 500 mile bike tour this summer (80mi/day, 6 days). Most of my training is on a bike, mixed with some hiking and landscaping. It's always been a goal of mine to start the Rippetoe program and I've finally been feeling fit enough to handle the heavy lifts, so I've added that on a 2x/week basis. It's not perfect but I don't think my body can handle the stress of riding 100 miles/week and lifting 3x. After the ride I expect to move to 3x/week and spend less time on cycling.

After 2 workouts I'm starting to get a feel for the 3 exercises I'm focused on learning correctly - squat, deadlift, bench. Bench is feeling pretty good. Deadlifts are getting there but the motion is still rather awkward. Better the 2nd day than the 1st. I'm holding off on overhead press until I feel pretty good with the other core exercises.

My only question is squats. I know how I'm supposed to be doing the lift (below parallel, back straight, etc, I've read the section in Marks' book about 4 times), but I naturally have very, very tight hamstrings and hips. Example- In the past I've done 2+ years of martial arts, training/stretching at least 3x per week, and most new students would surpass my flexibility within a couple months. Couldn't even get close to a full split.

Right now I max out my hamstrings/hips somewhere between a half and 3/4 squat, above parallel. Any deeper and my back rounds. It doesn't seem to matter whether I have low weight, or a lot of weight (for me), or no weight at all, I hit the same basic point. My workout routine is as follows

- 2x warm up sessions on a cycling machine, about 15 minutes. Muscles are definitely warm and heart rate is pretty high by the end.
- Spend about 10 minutes stretching hamstrings, hips, quads
- Do about 3x squat warmup stretches, no weight. I go deep, despite back rounding a bit (as suggested in the book, "we can fix that later"), try to push my knees out with my elbows, and hold. These are very difficult for me and I feel a lot of pull on the back of my knees from my hamstrings.
- Do 1x5 set with the bar
- Work through 3x5 sets of squats
- Go through the other lifts
- Spend another ~7 minutes on a cycling machine
- Stretch again

My current plan is to stay at the same squat weight until I'm able to go below parallel, if that's even possible. Theory is that each time I go through this routine, combined with stretching on other days, I should be getting deeper and deeper.

Any comments/suggestions?

 

[SociallyChallenged]

First of all, is there any way you can record your squat from both the side and the back? To let you know, the hamstrings cross both the hip and the knee. In the squatting position, the hamstrings are not long enough to be taut no matter what. The thing that's limiting you is either the glute max or the posterior hip capsule. On top of this, I'm looking to see a video if your dorsiflexion range at your ankle has anything to do with it because that can affect where your center of pressure is compared to your base of support.

 

[apac]

First of all, is there any way you can record your squat from both the side and the back? To let you know, the hamstrings cross both the hip and the knee. In the squatting position, the hamstrings are not long enough to be taut no matter what. The thing that's limiting you is either the glute max or the posterior hip capsule. On top of this, I'm looking to see a video if your dorsiflexion range at your ankle has anything to do with it because that can affect where your center of pressure is compared to your base of support.

I'll see if I can get a video at some point. I go to the gym alone so it will have to be when I can bring a friend.

Interesting what you say about hams. I'll give you a couple more examples of my inflexibility and maybe you can pin point. Sitting on the floor with my legs together and straight, I can roll forward on my hips and touch my toes. However, just sitting forward and straight, with my hips rolled forward, feels stretched. Not taut, but if I were to relax my muscles in this position my hips would roll back.

Same issue sitting with legs out straight and apart in a 'V', but it is considerably harder to sit up straight or stretch forward. There was a stretch we used to do in martial arts with legs out in a V and you try to stretch forward into the space between your legs. I was always terrible at it. Just sitting up straight in this position would cause me to break a sweat.

edit: I should mention I feel roughly the same stretch feeling in the 'V' case as I do during the squat, when I feel my back begin to round.

 

[Malfeas]

I'm pretty sure that if Mark was to read this he would simply tell you to "Push you knees out!". If that cue doesn't work, pretend there is a pretty girl in front of you and you want to squat and show her your dick. According to a recent article by Mark Rippetoe, he has never met anyone that did not have the flexibility to do a low bar back squat, they just have trouble understanding the 'Knees Out' cue.

 

[DeckardBlade]

I agree with SC, it's likely not your hamstrings. Mine are ridiculously tight and I don't have an issue going below parallel on a squat. That is provided I'm keeping my hips/glutes in order (having a desk job doesn't help).

You mention doing hamstring stretches but are you doing any hip/psoas/adductor/glute stretches? Some of those could really help, especially if you're at a desk often or behind a wheel for any extended period of time. Those areas are probably a lot tighter than you'd expect if that's the case with you.

 

[apac]

I agree with SC, it's likely not your hamstrings. Mine are ridiculously tight and I don't have an issue going below parallel on a squat. That is provided I'm keeping my hips/glutes in order (having a desk job doesn't help).

You mention doing hamstring stretches but are you doing any hip/psoas/adductor/glute stretches? Some of those could really help, especially if you're at a desk often or behind a wheel for any extended period of time. Those areas are probably a lot tighter than you'd expect if that's the case with you.

That is exactly the case. Can you suggest some stretches for those?

 

[SociallyChallenged]

I'm pretty sure that if Mark was to read this he would simply tell you to "Push you knees out!". If that cue doesn't work, pretend there is a pretty girl in front of you and you want to squat and show her your dick. According to a recent article by Mark Rippetoe, he has never met anyone that did not have the flexibility to do a low bar back squat, they just have trouble understanding the 'Knees Out' cue.

This is completely untrue. I've met so many people without proper hip ROM to perform a proper low bar squat. You need over 130 degrees of hip flexion, which is designated "normal" by most organizations. People round their back for several reasons: weakness, poor neuromuscular activation, and inflexibility - all at the hip. You'd be amazed how FEW people can actually squat as Mark Rippetoe outlines. Having knees out doesn't fix anything, it just puts you out in abduction, which is a compensation.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

That is exactly the case. Can you suggest some stretches for those?

The problem is you only want to stretch those if 1) you don't have any focal tightness (if you stretch, you'll just be stretching already loosened tissue), 2) you're tight there. Honestly, you should stretch your glute max first and see how it affects your squat. You should only do that after foam rolling it or something of the sort. If you have sore or tender spots on your glute, you need to break those up before you truly stretch. You can gain range of motion just by breaking those adhesions up.

 

[DeckardBlade]

You should only do that after foam rolling it or something of the sort. If you have sore or tender spots on your glute, you need to break those up before you truly stretch.

Why do you recommend foam rolling prior to stretching, versus stretching then foam rolling? I'm just curious as I've done both in each order but would like to know the benefit. Appreciate the input.

As far as the stretches themselves, google "piriformis stretch" there's several ways to stretch that and I do try to do a few of those throughout the workday along with the samson stretch which you could also search for some picture/video examples. I'm sure SC could offer additional or better examples. It's always good although not always easy to take breaks from your desk if you can during the day.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Why do you recommend foam rolling prior to stretching, versus stretching then foam rolling? I'm just curious as I've done both in each order but would like to know the benefit. Appreciate the input.

As far as the stretches themselves, google "piriformis stretch" there's several ways to stretch that and I do try to do a few of those throughout the workday along with the samson stretch which you could also search for some picture/video examples. I'm sure SC could offer additional or better examples. It's always good although not always easy to take breaks from your desk if you can during the day.

Foam rolling is like accessory and deep soft tissue mobilization. You want to break up the focal tightness before stretching or else you'll just stretch the already loosened area. The piriformis stretch may or may not be appropriate - it won't really help with increasing his hip flexion, which is why he's rounding his back.

 

[coreyb]

This is completely untrue. I've met so many people without proper hip ROM to perform a proper low bar squat. You need over 130 degrees of hip flexion, which is designated "normal" by most organizations. People round their back for several reasons: weakness, poor neuromuscular activation, and inflexibility - all at the hip. You'd be amazed how FEW people can actually squat as Mark Rippetoe outlines. Having knees out doesn't fix anything, it just puts you out in abduction, which is a compensation.

if this is true, why does Mark say that he can get almost everyone to do a proper low bar, full squat within a session or two? he has seminars all the time and claims that this is true. he also has been in the barbell game for 35 years...pretty sure I believe what he claims.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

if this is true, why does Mark say that he can get almost everyone to do a proper low bar, full squat within a session or two? he has seminars all the time and claims that this is true. he also has been in the barbell game for 35 years...pretty sure I believe what he claims.

Mainly because he forces people to compensate. Many times, he'll have them take a wider stance and go into hip abduction rather than hip flexion, which is not addressing the problem. Rather, it is allowing the individual to squat with the same issue they had previously. Rippetoe is a smart guy when it comes to training, but he doesn't know the intricacies of compensations, end-feels, and how to fix these issues. Also keep in mind, he's a man selling a product. He's going to back it with his own personal claims.