Squats: How do i get my stance back so knees dont hurt?

[JEDI]

so I changed my stance months ago so my feet faced more forward.
that hurt my knees so I stopped for a month.
I used to squat 2 45lb plates easily.

I've tried once every month since then to squat but my knees hurt.
I even went down to 2 25lb plates.
knees still hurt.

no one has ever showed my how to squat. I just did it. my feet were between like 30 to 45 degree angle.
started at 35lbs on each side and went up to 55lbs each side.
then had the bright idea of changing my stance to feet more forward because that's what others were doing.

now I think im putting my feet back at the same 30-45 degree angle as before but I guess not since my knees hurt afterwards.

How do I regain my stance?

 

[Riverhound777]

Are you doing high bar or low bar squat? If high bar, try low, it's easier on the knees since it allows you to squat down without moving your knees forward as much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhVC_AnZYYM

 

[KIAman]

I am in the process of fixing my squat as well although not for the same reason as you, but I am struggling the same.

When I first started taking squat seriously I noticed I had really bad knee pain. It especially hurt if I walked down down a slope and didn't hurt much if I walked up a slope. At first I thought it was just bad DOMs but it lasted for 3 months and got worse.

I started experimenting with my squat stance and realized all the "how to squat" videos and guides are just... guides. You really need find your own sweet spot because your body is different than everybody else. I used to do everything every video said to try and ended up just being really uncomfortable and not able to up the weights.

So, in your case, I would experiment in 1 week's worth of squatting. 1 day isn't enough to determine if a stance is working or not.

To fix my own issue, I started to play with the width of my stance and the bar placement on my back. I noticed if I went REALLY wide and the bar very low, my glutes and outer quads burned out before the rest of my body. When my stance was more narrow, I had to keep the bar higher for balance and I noticed my quads gave out first and this especially made my knees hurt.

So I adjusted my stance to just a hair wider than shoulder width and the bar kinda halfway between a high/low bar position. Then I played with feet angle. I noticed that the straighter my feet were, the more stretch I got out of my glutes at the hole and more power to the squat overall but this required a ton of flexibility in my hamstrings. I could only do a few reps at this stance until my form suffered and my back started to round at the hole.

The more outward feet angle was easier to get into the hole but I didn't have as much stretch and not as much power. Also more outward hurt my knees more as I couldn't spread my legs enough (need ton of inner thigh flexibility) in the hold to truly get my knees to track over my toes with that angle.

I ended up keeping my toes around 15 degree (more straight than the often suggested 30 degree) and really focused on pushing my legs out as I sunk into the hole. This gave me the best of both worlds, glutes being stretched and providing lots of power and not needing to spread my legs so far to make sure my knees tracked over my toes at my wider than suggested foot width. It was the first time I could sit in a squat stance without weights and felt comfortable enough to sit in the hole for longer than 10 minutes. At night, I started sitting in this stance as I watched TV with the wife for at least an hour a night. The limiting factor was that the blood would eventually be cut from my legs and they'd get tingly.

With this stance, I was able to have pain free squats up to 285. I remember my limiting factor was core (I was still beltless) so I was supplementing tons of core stuff like planks and leg raises and breathing exercises (don't discount breathing). I then noticed I felt my stomach was actually contributing to the lift LOL, it's a weird feeling but I go down in the hole and feel that the tighter I squeeze my stomach, the easier it is to lift. I got up to 325lb squat until pulled my hamstring playing soccer.

Now I feel like I'm starting all over again but this time I think I know what to do.

 

[JEDI]

I ended up keeping my toes around 15 degree (more straight than the often suggested 30 degree) and really focused on pushing my legs out as I sunk into the hole. This gave me the best of both worlds, glutes being stretched and providing lots of power and not needing to spread my legs so far to make sure my knees tracked over my toes at my wider than suggested foot width. It was the first time I could sit in a squat stance without weights and felt comfortable enough to sit in the hole for longer than 10 minutes.

you mean push your KNEES out as you squat?

if so, do you push your knees all the way out?
when I try that with toes at 15degrees and push all the way out, my knees are no longer tracking since its past my toes??

 

[KIAman]

you mean push your KNEES out as you squat?

if so, do you push your knees all the way out?
when I try that with toes at 15degrees and push all the way out, my knees are no longer tracking since its past my toes??

Yeah, if I spread my feet wide enough, pushing my knees out while squatting only just aligns my knees right over my toes with a slight outward bias (most of the weight on my heels and outer feet).

When my feet are close to each other, it goes wide beyond my toes like you are describing (almost all my weight on my outer feet).

I don't have enough inner thigh flexibility to have a wider than shoulder foot stance and push my knees out enough to go beyond my toes, my limits of flexibility stop my knees right over my toes which coincide with giving me the tightest stretch on my glutes in the hole.

Like I said, I would experiment with your own body to get a feel for what works. My own squat is a hybrid of highbar and lowbar with a wide foot stance.

 

[GasX]

hip hip hip
knee knee knee

that's the voice inside my head when I squat. You can have your feet straight ahead or slightly splayed out - your hip mobility will dictate which is best for you.

Initiate the movement by bending at the hips and pushing your butt back. Then start bending the knees. Your knees should move out and try to keep your shins close to vertical the whole time. Once your are as far down as you are going to go, straighten your knees before straightening your hips.

hip hip hip
knee knee knee

followed by

knee knee knee
hip hip hip

A good way to practice is with a box about 12" behind you. Practice sitting down on the box and standing up in the controlled manner descried above. You don't need weights to practice the movements.

 

[Koing]

Can you squat deep with no pain with no weights?

It's perfectly fine to squat with your toes pointed out. Most olympic lifters will. This allows you to sit deeper and be more upright in a squat. Let your knees track over your toes, it's perfectly fine.

If you can't squat deep with knees going out over your toes with NO WEIGHTS then you have a bigger issue. If you can with no weights you will just have to build the exercise up again after your injury.

A good exercise to help strengthen your tendons/ ligaments around your knees is to sit in a parallel squat and hold it for 30seconds. Make sure the top of your thighs are JUST OVER PARALLEL with the ground. Hold for 30seconds, repeat for 3sets. Your knees should start feeling better within days. The idea of this exercise is to spend more time at just parallel with no weights to build tendon/ ligament strength.

You can do the above exercise on a leg press as well. It works better in fact. Have 25kg on the machine and use one leg at a time. Hold for 30seconds, repeat on the other leg, repeat for 3sets in total. Job done. A mate told me about this exercise when I hurt my knee last year. After 5 days of this my knee felt so much better. An England physic told my friend about this pre-hab exercise. I do it after training sessions.

Post up a video of your squats. It's very hard to comment about things without seeing a video.

Koing

 

[JEDI]

If you can't squat deep with knees going out over your toes with NO WEIGHTS then you have a bigger issue.

i can squat deep.
but like in the pic, I have to use something to get me back up.

suggestions?

 

[Koing]

i can squat deep.
but like in the pic, I have to use something to get me back up.

suggestions?

The picture isn't very good as she has poor ankle mobility. Her hips are behind and they should *ideally* be in-between her ankles. This means she needs more flexible ankles so she can push her knees out over her toes, which is perfectly fine.

Try:
-goblet squats
-stretching ankles (google search this, loads out there I'd imagine, literally having a small step and pushing your knees out over your toes works wonders)
-sit in a deep squat and put a barbell (empty, no weights to start with!) on your knees so you can push them out forwards, lean more on one side than the other and repeat

Better example of squats:
http://www.allthingsgym.com/wp-cont...1kg-sequence-frame-by-frame-key-positions.jpg

http://www.allthingsgym.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/marcin-dolega-190kg-snatch.jpg

http://store.hookgrip.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/lu-xiaojun.jpg

http://www.nextlevelweightlifting.com/uploads/1/3/8/9/13898632/1389219521.jpg

This is probably the best example with a comparison that I quickly found:
https://thefitcoach.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/080518-lowhightorque.jpg

See the difference on mobility and position depending on what the person wants to do?

Get a video.

Koing

 

[bradley]

My personally recommendation is to practice goblet squats or simply use machines.

Lifters are still stuck back in seventies and eighties science where free weights ruled. However modern machines are more biomechanically sound and better able to help beginners and intermediates at the basics. There are just so many things that could go wrong on heavy compound movements such as deadlifts and squats without adequate enough stabilization. This will help work you back to free weight squats, by breaking apart the movement and isolating muscle groups.

I'd also throw out full range movements (especially atg squats) for a while and instead focus on time under *maximal* tension. Give your knees, joints and tendons a rest and focus instead on the middle of the muscle.

If you still opt to squat, practice on hip recruitment and mobility by attempting to screw your toes into the ground, toward the outside of your hips. Not doing so is a top three mistake I see lifters making in attempting the squat.

Also work on your core: lower back (with roman chairs) and abs. This will help prevent forward posture on the squat, another big mistake. If your neck isn't neutral up top, you are doing something majorly wrong down below.

 

[JEDI]

what im saying is if I do a deep squat (w/o weights), I cant get back up w/o help (ie: chair like in post #8).

is it just do more deep squats using something to get me back up and my body will EVENTUALLY get strong enuf to get up w/o aid?

 

[Koing]

what im saying is if I do a deep squat (w/o weights), I cant get back up w/o help (ie: chair like in post #8).

is it just do more deep squats using something to get me back up and my body will EVENTUALLY get strong enuf to get up w/o aid?

Get a video. It's very hard to give advice when I can't see you do the movement. PM me a private link from youtube if you want.

You can't get up because you have weak quads and or your position isn't as good as you think it is. But a video would really help me give you better advice.

Take the advice in my previous post on things to help correct your issues.

Koing

 

[bradley]

what im saying is if I do a deep squat (w/o weights), I cant get back up w/o help (ie: chair like in post #8).

is it just do more deep squats using something to get me back up and my body will EVENTUALLY get strong enuf to get up w/o aid?

Simply because you lack glute/hip mobility and strength and aren't recruiting them enough. Anyhow deep squats are kinda like setting up a machine on the hardest possible level. Get on a leg press and hack squat machine first and start working on screwing your legs into the platform.

I would also recommend adductor/abductor machines as squatting training wheels. The people who call them useless don't understand the role adductor/abductors play in a proper squat. Trying to build your hams/glutes/quads before you adductor/abductors probably isn't wise either.

Also the calf is what helps to stabilize the entire knee joint, so make sure you tackle them too.

 

[JEDI]

So went back to gym for squats for 1st time since this thread.

With only the bar, I had feet mostly pointed forward and forced my knees out.
By the time I finished with a set of 10, my feet were at 45 degree angle?!
(I used to do 30degree before all my problems.)

Aparently my feet moved to track my knees.

Now what?

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

I've read the thread. But I have to say something. I have never heard of feet at 0 degrees being correct. Everything I have read says 45 degrees. I'm in the camp that the most important thing to prevent knee injury/pain is to keep the knees tracking over the feet. Also, feet at about shoulder width.

It sucks though. Everything you read will say something slightly differently or be vague. The best thing I have done is watch every Mark Rippitoe video of him training others. They are all over YouTube.

 

[Koing]

So went back to gym for squats for 1st time since this thread.

With only the bar, I had feet mostly pointed forward and forced my knees out.
By the time I finished with a set of 10, my feet were at 45 degree angle?!
(I used to do 30degree before all my problems.)

Aparently my feet moved to track my knees.

Now what?

How do your knees feel when your feet are 45 degrees?

Can you get a video so we can see your squat form please?

Knee's out is fine if you want to squat deep.

Koing

 

[bradley]

I've read the thread. But I have to say something. I have never heard of feet at 0 degrees being correct. Everything I have read says 45 degrees. I'm in the camp that the most important thing to prevent knee injury/pain is to keep the knees tracking over the feet. Also, feet at about shoulder width.

It sucks though. Everything you read will say something slightly differently or be vague. The best thing I have done is watch every Mark Rippitoe video of him training others. They are all over YouTube.

Yeah Mark provides a wealth of knowledge, also Mark Bell and a few others. I sometimes watch their videos on the elliptical while performing HIT.

I personally don't believe anyone can make definitive statements about any movement that isn't isolated. In a compound movement like the squat, the size of your hips and length of the your femur and tibia determines foot placement most.

In the squat, I like to position my feet to push optimally with my heels and where my hips have the greatest range of motion. Also pushing with your heels and turning them outward your body prevents those knees from coming together and increases knee stability.

As my legs got stronger and ROM increased, I was able to widely vary the horizontal and vertical positioning of my feet in general. You then are able to go outside of your comfort zone and experiment a little.

 

[JEDI]

just want to give everyone an update:
when I forced my knees all the way out, my toes tracked and ended up at 45 degree angle.

so i decided to force my knees out only a little.
I start w/my toes at like 10 degrees.
with just a 25lb plate on each side, my toes only widened a little after a set of 8 deep squats. no knee pain.

it's been 2 days and my knees still feel fine.

so I'm going to try this and add a 5lb plate on each side everytime I goto the gym till i'm back at my normal squat weight.

 

[Koing]

just want to give everyone an update:
when I forced my knees all the way out, my toes tracked and ended up at 45 degree angle.

so i decided to force my knees out only a little.
I start w/my toes at like 10 degrees.
with just a 25lb plate on each side, my toes only widened a little after a set of 8 deep squats. no knee pain.

it's been 2 days and my knees still feel fine.

so I'm going to try this and add a 5lb plate on each side everytime I goto the gym till i'm back at my normal squat weight.

Sounds good mate. Just do what is comfortable FOR YOU.

Do you warm up your knees before you squat? So some leg swings, maybe a short 500m row on the rower? Then some knee circles and bodyweight squats? Get down in a squat position and just move around a bit to get a good range of movement?

Also be more careful now that it's colder. If you aren't wearing leggings your knees may feel the cold more.

Koing

 

[JEDI]

Sounds good mate. Just do what is comfortable FOR YOU.

Do you warm up your knees before you squat? So some leg swings, maybe a short 500m row on the rower? Then some knee circles and bodyweight squats? Get down in a squat position and just move around a bit to get a good range of movement?

Also be more careful now that it's colder. If you aren't wearing leggings your knees may feel the cold more.

Koing

thx.
I'm on the elliptical for 5 min, then do a set of 8 squats w/just the bar.

hm... leg swings? will try that.
will also try a set of body weight squats b4 doing just the bar.

thx!

and if this works out, hopefully having my toes point more forward is worth all this trouble.
ie: should have stuck with 30degree toes and not even try 10degree toes.

I haven't squatted any significant weight since last spring because of my experiment w/10degree toes

 

[KIAman]

thx.
I'm on the elliptical for 5 min, then do a set of 8 squats w/just the bar.

hm... leg swings? will try that.
will also try a set of body weight squats b4 doing just the bar.

thx!

and if this works out, hopefully having my toes point more forward is worth all this trouble.
ie: should have stuck with 30degree toes and not even try 10degree toes.

I haven't squatted any significant weight since last spring because of my experiment w/10degree toes

This is a bit confusing. Toes pointing more forward is a smaller degree angle (with 0 degrees being toes pointed straight forward and 90 degrees toes pointed completely out). On one hand you seem to be comfortable having toes pointed more forward but at the same time you regret having your toes pointed more forward?

 

[SP33Demon]

I squat at around 20-30deg (note: high bar, NOT low - low would be wider). 45 seems to be on the high end - you probably need to just work on your stretching, especially hammys. Roll your IT band as well. See if you can get closer to touching your toes after a month of static stretching and then see if squatting closer than 45 feels more natural.

 

[Koing]

thx.
I'm on the elliptical for 5 min, then do a set of 8 squats w/just the bar.

hm... leg swings? will try that.
will also try a set of body weight squats b4 doing just the bar.

thx!

and if this works out, hopefully having my toes point more forward is worth all this trouble.
ie: should have stuck with 30degree toes and not even try 10degree toes.

I haven't squatted any significant weight since last spring because of my experiment w/10degree toes

Yes leg swings forwards and backwards. This will sort our hip flexors and hamstrings out.

Have your toes where it feels comfortable and be done with it. You don't have to have your toes forwards.

I always do some air squats before I even go to the bar. Also get down in to a deep squat and move around in that position, pushing your knees out and go in all directions GENTLY so you more mobile in your ankles, knees and hips.

The weight will come. Just take it easy.

Koing

 

[JEDI]

interesting video about fixing knee tracking.
https://bretcontreras.com/simple-squat-correction/

narrow stance and force knees out.

 

[Sho'Nuff]

i can squat deep.
but like in the pic, I have to use something to get me back up.

suggestions?

Ever used lifting shoes or putting 5lb plates under your heels while squatting? You may have some ankle mobility issues that are contributing to your knee problems.

A test to try - standing facing a wall with the toes of both feet touching the wall. Drop to one knee while keeping the toes of one foot against the wall. Now - with the side you have the toes touching the wall on, try to touch your knee to the wall. Can you do that? On both sides? If so, move your toes 1" away from the wall and repeat until you can't touch the wall with your knee cap. That will given you an idea of whether you have ankle mobility issues, and if so, whether they are symmetrical.

FWIW - I have a bone spur on the front of my left tibia that severely limits dorsiflexion of my left ankle/foot. If I don't wear lifting shoes, I can't squat properly at all. With them, its like I have no ankle mobility issues at all.

Other things to try to improve mobility and figure out where your knee pain is coming from

Goblet squats - slow, deliberate, and light weight. If you can - pause at the bottom of the goblet squat and try to force your knees out with your elbows. In the pic below you can see the guy has some mobility issues with his right ankle (heel is off the floor and his butt is too far back)

Olympic wall squats - improve hip mobility

Banded hip flexor and ankle stretches, etc. (google them)

Good luck