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Spy Agency Data After Sept. 11 Led F.B.I. to Dead Ends

BBond

Diamond Member
The NSA shared information on U.S. citizens gleaned from Bush's illegal wiretaps with the FBI.

That serial liar Cheney claims the NSA spying saved "thousands of lives" yet all of the information the NSA supplied the FBI led to DEAD ENDS. It's bad enough they spied on U.S. citizens without warrants. It's bad enough they lied and said they only spied on U.S. citizens who were in contact with al Qaeda or other terrorist organizations. But now we find out that they shared info on U.S. citizens illegally obtained with the FBI and IT WAS ALL JUST A WASTE OF TIME AND RESOURCES.

Spy Agency Data After Sept. 11 Led F.B.I. to Dead Ends

By LOWELL BERGMAN, ERIC LICHTBLAU, SCOTT SHANE and DON VAN NATTA Jr.

WASHINGTON, Jan. 16 - In the anxious months after the Sept. 11 attacks, the National Security Agency began sending a steady stream of telephone numbers, e-mail addresses and names to the F.B.I. in search of terrorists. The stream soon became a flood, requiring hundreds of agents to check out thousands of tips a month.

But virtually all of them, current and former officials say, led to dead ends or innocent Americans.

F.B.I. officials repeatedly complained to the spy agency that the unfiltered information was swamping investigators. The spy agency was collecting much of the data by eavesdropping on some Americans' international communications and conducting computer searches of phone and Internet traffic. Some F.B.I. officials and prosecutors also thought the checks, which sometimes involved interviews by agents, were pointless intrusions on Americans' privacy.

As the bureau was running down those leads, its director, Robert S. Mueller III, raised concerns about the legal rationale for a program of eavesdropping without warrants, one government official said. Mr. Mueller asked senior administration officials about "whether the program had a proper legal foundation," but deferred to Justice Department legal opinions, the official said.

President Bush has characterized the eavesdropping program as a "vital tool" against terrorism; Vice President Dick Cheney has said it has saved "thousands of lives."

But the results of the program look very different to some officials charged with tracking terrorism in the United States. More than a dozen current and former law enforcement and counterterrorism officials, including some in the small circle who knew of the secret program and how it played out at the F.B.I., said the torrent of tips led them to few potential terrorists inside the country they did not know of from other sources and diverted agents from counterterrorism work they viewed as more productive.

"We'd chase a number, find it's a schoolteacher with no indication they've ever been involved in international terrorism - case closed," said one former F.B.I. official, who was aware of the program and the data it generated for the bureau. "After you get a thousand numbers and not one is turning up anything, you get some frustration."

Intelligence officials disagree with any characterization of the program's results as modest, said Judith A. Emmel, a spokeswoman for the office of the director of national intelligence. Ms. Emmel cited a statement at a briefing last month by Gen. Michael V. Hayden, the country's second-ranking intelligence official and the director of the N.S.A. when the program was started.

"I can say unequivocally that we have gotten information through this program that would not otherwise have been available," General Hayden said. The White House and the F.B.I. declined to comment on the program or its results.

The differing views of the value of the N.S.A.'s foray into intelligence-gathering in the United States may reflect both bureaucratic rivalry and a culture clash. The N.S.A., an intelligence agency, routinely collects huge amounts of data from across the globe that may yield only tiny nuggets of useful information; the F.B.I., while charged with fighting terrorism, retains the traditions of a law enforcement agency more focused on solving crimes.

"It isn't at all surprising to me that people not accustomed to doing this would say, 'Boy, this is an awful lot of work to get a tiny bit of information,' " said Adm. Bobby R. Inman, a former N.S.A. director. "But the rejoinder to that is, Have you got anything better?"

Several of the law enforcement officials acknowledged that they might not know of arrests or intelligence activities overseas that grew out of the domestic spying program. And because the program was a closely guarded secret, its role in specific cases may have been disguised or hidden even from key investigators.

Still, the comments on the N.S.A. program from the law enforcement and counterterrorism officials, many of them high level, are the first indication that the program was viewed with skepticism by key figures at the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the agency responsible for disrupting plots and investigating terrorism on American soil.

All the officials spoke on condition of anonymity because the program is classified. It is coming under scrutiny next month in hearings on Capitol Hill, which were planned after members of Congress raised questions about the legality of the eavesdropping. The program was disclosed in December by The New York Times.

The law enforcement and counterterrorism officials said the program had uncovered no active Qaeda networks inside the United States planning attacks. "There were no imminent plots - not inside the United States," the former F.B.I. official said.

Some of the officials said the eavesdropping program might have helped uncover people with ties to Al Qaeda in Albany; Portland, Ore.; and Minneapolis. Some of the activities involved recruitment, training or fund-raising.

But, along with several British counterterrorism officials, some of the officials questioned assertions by the Bush administration that the program was the key to uncovering a plot to detonate fertilizer bombs in London in 2004. The F.B.I. and other law enforcement officials also expressed doubts about the importance of the program's role in another case named by administration officials as a success in the fight against terrorism, an aborted scheme to topple the Brooklyn Bridge with a blow torch.

Some officials said that in both cases, they had already learned of the plans through interrogation of prisoners or other means.

Immediately after the Sept. 11 attacks, the Bush administration pressed the nation's intelligence agencies and the F.B.I. to move urgently to thwart any more plots. The N.S.A., whose mission is to spy overseas, began monitoring the international e-mail messages and phone calls of people inside the United States who were linked, even indirectly, to suspected Qaeda figures.

Under a presidential order, the agency conducted the domestic eavesdropping without seeking the warrants ordinarily required from the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which handles national security matters. The administration has defended the legality of the program, pointing to what it says is the president's inherent constitutional power to defend the country and to legislation passed by Congress after the Sept. 11 attacks.

Administration officials told Mr. Mueller, the F.B.I. director, of the eavesdropping program, and his agency was enlisted to run down leads from it, several current and former officials said.

While he and some bureau officials discussed the fact that the program bypassed the intelligence surveillance court, Mr. Mueller expressed no concerns about that to them, those officials said. But another government official said Mr. Mueller had questioned the administration about the legal authority for the program.

Officials who were briefed on the N.S.A. program said the agency collected much of the data passed on to the F.B.I. as tips by tracing phone numbers in the United States called by suspects overseas, and then by following the domestic numbers to other numbers called. In other cases, lists of phone numbers appeared to result from the agency's computerized scanning of communications coming into and going out of the country for names and keywords that might be of interest. The deliberate blurring of the source of the tips caused some frustration among those who had to follow up.

F.B.I. field agents, who were not told of the domestic surveillance programs, complained that they often were given no information about why names or numbers had come under suspicion. A former senior prosecutor who was familiar with the eavesdropping programs said intelligence officials turning over the tips "would always say that we had information whose source we can't share, but it indicates that this person has been communicating with a suspected Qaeda operative." He said, "I would always wonder, what does 'suspected' mean?"

"The information was so thin," he said, "and the connections were so remote, that they never led to anything, and I never heard any follow-up."

In response to the F.B.I. complaints, the N.S.A. eventually began ranking its tips on a three-point scale, with 3 being the highest priority and 1 the lowest, the officials said. Some tips were considered so hot that they were carried by hand to top F.B.I. officials. But in bureau field offices, the N.S.A. material continued to be viewed as unproductive, prompting agents to joke that a new bunch of tips meant more "calls to Pizza Hut," one official, who supervised field agents, said.

The views of some bureau officials about the value of the N.S.A.'s domestic surveillance offers a revealing glimpse of the difficulties law enforcement and intelligence agencies have had cooperating since Sept. 11.

The N.S.A., criticized by the national Sept. 11 commission for its "avoidance of anything domestic" before the attacks, moved aggressively into the domestic realm after them. But the legal debate over its warrantless eavesdropping has embroiled the agency in just the kind of controversy its secretive managers abhor. The F.B.I., meanwhile, has struggled over the last four years to expand its traditional mission of criminal investigation to meet the larger menace of terrorism.

Admiral Inman, the former N.S.A. director and deputy director of C.I.A., said the F.B.I. complaints about thousands of dead-end leads revealed a chasm between very different disciplines. Signals intelligence, the technical term for N.S.A.'s communications intercepts, rarely produces "the complete information you're going to get from a document or a witness" in a traditional F.B.I. investigation, he said.

Some F.B.I. officials said they were uncomfortable with the expanded domestic role played by the N.S.A. and other intelligence agencies, saying most intelligence officers lacked the training needed to safeguard Americans' privacy and civil rights. They said some protections had to be waived temporarily in the months after Sept. 11 to detect a feared second wave of attacks, but they questioned whether emergency procedures like the eavesdropping should become permanent.

That discomfort may explain why some F.B.I. officials may seek to minimize the benefits of the N.S.A. program or distance themselves from the agency. "This wasn't our program," an F.B.I. official said. "It's not our mess, and we're not going to clean it up."

The N.S.A.'s legal authority for collecting the information it passed to the F.B.I. is uncertain. The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act requires a warrant for the use of so-called pen register equipment that records American phone numbers, even if the contents of the calls are not intercepted. But officials with knowledge of the program said no warrants were sought to collect the numbers, and it is unclear whether the secret executive order signed by Mr. President Bush in 2002 to authorize eavesdropping without warrants also covered the collection of phone numbers and e-mail addresses.

Aside from the director, F.B.I. officials did not question the legal status of the tips, assuming that N.S.A. lawyers had approved. They were more concerned about the quality and quantity of the material, which produced "mountains of paperwork" often more like raw data than conventional investigative leads.

"It affected the F.B.I. in the sense that they had to devote so many resources to tracking every single one of these leads, and, in my experience, they were all dry leads," the former senior prosecutor said. "A trained investigator never would have devoted the resources to take those leads to the next level, but after 9/11, you had to."

By the administration's account, the N.S.A. eavesdropping helped lead investigators to Iyman Faris, an Ohio truck driver and friend of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, who is believed to be the mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks. Mr. Faris spoke of toppling the Brooklyn Bridge by taking a torch to its suspension cables, but concluded that it would not work. He is now serving a 20-year sentence in a federal prison.

But as in the London fertilizer bomb case, some officials with direct knowledge of the Faris case dispute that the N.S.A. information played a significant role.

By contrast, different officials agree that the N.S.A.'s domestic operations played a role in the arrest of an imam and another man in Albany in August 2004 as part of an F.B.I. counterterrorism sting investigation. The men, Yassin Aref, 35, and Mohammed Hossain, 49, are awaiting trial on charges that they attempted to engineer the sale of missile launchers to an F.B.I. undercover informant.

In addition, government officials said the N.S.A. eavesdropping program might have assisted in the investigations of people with suspected Qaeda ties in Portland and Minneapolis. In the Minneapolis case, charges of supporting terrorism were filed in 2004 against Mohammed Abdullah Warsame, a Canadian citizen. Six people in the Portland case were convicted of crimes that included money laundering and conspiracy to wage war against the United States.

Even senior administration officials with access to classified operations suggest that drawing a clear link between a particular source and the unmasking of a potential terrorist is not always possible.

When Michael Chertoff, the homeland security secretary, was asked last week on "The Charlie Rose Show" whether the N.S.A. wiretapping program was important in deterring terrorism, he said, "I don't know that it's ever possible to attribute one strand of intelligence from a particular program."

But Mr. Chertoff added, "I can tell you in general the process of doing whatever you can do technologically to find out what is being said by a known terrorist to other people, and who that person is communicating with, that is without a doubt one of the critical tools we've used time and again."

William K. Rashbaum contributed reporting from New York for this article.

And the NY Times editorial opinion of this whole sticking affair...

Spying on Ordinary Americans

In times of extreme fear, American leaders have sometimes scrapped civil liberties in the name of civil protection. It's only later that the country can see that the choice was a false one and that citizens' rights were sacrificed to carry out extreme measures that were at best useless and at worst counterproductive. There are enough examples of this in American history - the Alien and Sedition Acts and the World War II internment camps both come to mind - that the lesson should be woven into the nation's fabric. But it's hard to think of a more graphic example than President Bush's secret program of spying on Americans.

The White House has offered steadily weaker arguments to defend the decision to eavesdrop on Americans' telephone calls and e-mail without getting warrants. One argument is that the spying produced unique and highly valuable information. Vice President Dick Cheney, who never shrinks from trying to prey on Americans' deepest fears, said that the spying had saved "thousands of lives" and could have thwarted the 9/11 attacks had it existed then.

Given the lack of good, hard examples, that argument sounded dubious from the start. A chilling article in yesterday's Times confirmed our fears.

According to the article, the eavesdropping swept up vast quantities of Americans' private communications without any reasonable belief that they could be related to terrorism. The National Security Agency flooded the Federal Bureau of Investigation with thousands of names, e-mail addresses, telephone numbers and other tips that virtually all led to dead ends or to innocent Americans.

About the only result the administration has been able to dredge up on behalf of the spying program is the claim that the information it gained helped disrupt two plots: one to destroy the Brooklyn Bridge and one to detonate fertilizer bombs in London. But officials in Washington and Britain disputed the connection. And that plot to cut down the Brooklyn Bridge with a blowtorch has been trotted out so many times that it would be comical if the issue were not so serious.

This was not just a tragic waste of the F.B.I.'s resources in dangerous times. It was an outrageous and pointless intrusion into individuals' privacy. Anyone who read the original reports on the spying operation and thought, "Well, so what, I have nothing to hide," should think about the uncounted innocent Americans who had F.B.I. officers knocking on their doors because of secret and possibly illegal surveillance. The National Security Agency was originally barred from domestic surveillance without court supervision to avoid just this sort of abuse.

The first lawsuits challenging the legality of the domestic spying operation were filed this week, and Congress plans hearings. We hope that lawmakers are more diligent about reining in Mr. Bush now than they have been about his other abuses of power in the name of fighting terrorism.
 
Further evidence that dishonesty and disinformation are the first choice of this administration. I haven't seen an ounce of integrity out of the whole lot of them combined (but as long as no one gets a BJ, it's all good :roll: )

I especially enjoyed this quote, a great example of how one can lie, i.e., intentionally deceive, while still being factually accurate:
  • "I can say unequivocally that we have gotten information through this program that would not otherwise have been available," General Hayden said.
It's noteworthy for what it doesn't say. It doesn't say they found terrorists due to this intrusive violation of civil liberties. It doesn't say they stopped any terrorist activities due to this intrusion. It doesn't even say they uncovered any terrorism-related information. It only says they've gotten "information". Well duh! Thousands of illegal interceptions? Of course you'll get "information". Abdullah likes soy milk and wheat bread. Mr. Hayden accidentally bounced a check. Mrs. O'Leary is into light bondage. Mr. Cheney is having an affair with an intern. Lots of information, NONE of which is relevant to national security, none of which is anyone's business. Welcome to the U.S.S.A.
 
I'm sorry, but "Ordinary Americans" aren't making phone calls to Afghanistan and discussing plots with AQ members.

Your pathetic attempts (as well as those of the MSM) to make this out as "spying on ordinary, average Americans" are laughable.
 
Originally posted by: Pabster
I'm sorry, but "Ordinary Americans" aren't making phone calls to Afghanistan and discussing plots with AQ members.

Your pathetic attempts (as well as those of the MSM) to make this out as "spying on ordinary, average Americans" are laughable.
And if you can prove that the only people/calls targeted are to or from Afghanistan, you'll have a point, albeit a weak one. Otherwise, your comment is dismissed as more empty knee-jerk Bush apologism.
 
Originally posted by: Pabster
I'm sorry, but "Ordinary Americans" aren't making phone calls to Afghanistan and discussing plots with AQ members.

Your pathetic attempts (as well as those of the MSM) to make this out as "spying on ordinary, average Americans" are laughable.

Right, as if there are any guarantees that only people talking to AQ members in Afghanistan are being monitored. Sure thing.
Or can you provide us with evidence that is the case? Hello? Mr. Cheney?

Edit: Bow beat me to it. Great minds, etc etc. 😛
 
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Pabster
I'm sorry, but "Ordinary Americans" aren't making phone calls to Afghanistan and discussing plots with AQ members.

Your pathetic attempts (as well as those of the MSM) to make this out as "spying on ordinary, average Americans" are laughable.
And if you can prove that the only people/calls targeted are to or from Afghanistan, you'll have a point, albeit a weak one. Otherwise, your comment is dismissed as more empty knee-jerk Bush apologism.

Just as soon as you prove avg Americans were targeted.
Otherwise you are just spouting off baseless rhetoric.
 
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Pabster
I'm sorry, but "Ordinary Americans" aren't making phone calls to Afghanistan and discussing plots with AQ members.

Your pathetic attempts (as well as those of the MSM) to make this out as "spying on ordinary, average Americans" are laughable.
And if you can prove that the only people/calls targeted are to or from Afghanistan, you'll have a point, albeit a weak one. Otherwise, your comment is dismissed as more empty knee-jerk Bush apologism.

Just as soon as you prove avg Americans were targeted.
Otherwise you are just spouting off baseless rhetoric.

So with that logic they can spy on whomever they like, whenever they like, for as long as they like.
 
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Pabster
I'm sorry, but "Ordinary Americans" aren't making phone calls to Afghanistan and discussing plots with AQ members.

Your pathetic attempts (as well as those of the MSM) to make this out as "spying on ordinary, average Americans" are laughable.
And if you can prove that the only people/calls targeted are to or from Afghanistan, you'll have a point, albeit a weak one. Otherwise, your comment is dismissed as more empty knee-jerk Bush apologism.

Just as soon as you prove avg Americans were targeted.
Otherwise you are just spouting off baseless rhetoric.

So with that logic they can spy on whomever they like, whenever they like, for as long as they like.

Is that what I am saying?
I am simply asking for proof that they were spying on your avg American. Something which I would find interesting because of the limited resources they have.
 
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Pabster
I'm sorry, but "Ordinary Americans" aren't making phone calls to Afghanistan and discussing plots with AQ members.

Your pathetic attempts (as well as those of the MSM) to make this out as "spying on ordinary, average Americans" are laughable.
And if you can prove that the only people/calls targeted are to or from Afghanistan, you'll have a point, albeit a weak one. Otherwise, your comment is dismissed as more empty knee-jerk Bush apologism.
Just as soon as you prove avg Americans were targeted.
Otherwise you are just spouting off baseless rhetoric.
And it's Genx87 in for the diversion ... he shoots ... he misses.

Sorry, no sale. I have the Constitution and specific legislation on my side. It is up to the Bush administration and its apologists to prove that these intrusions are legal, productive, and never, ever, ever done improperly. When they can do that, when they can prove they are infallible and above reproach, then, and only then might they be excused for circumventing the checks and balances designed to discourage abuse and to preserve American civil liberties.

I won't hold my breath.
 
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Pabster
I'm sorry, but "Ordinary Americans" aren't making phone calls to Afghanistan and discussing plots with AQ members.

Your pathetic attempts (as well as those of the MSM) to make this out as "spying on ordinary, average Americans" are laughable.
And if you can prove that the only people/calls targeted are to or from Afghanistan, you'll have a point, albeit a weak one. Otherwise, your comment is dismissed as more empty knee-jerk Bush apologism.
Just as soon as you prove avg Americans were targeted.
Otherwise you are just spouting off baseless rhetoric.
And it's Genx87 in for the diversion ... he shoots ... he misses.

Sorry, no sale. I have the Constitution and specific legislation on my side. It is up to the Bush administration and its apologists to prove that these intrusions are legal, productive, and never, ever, ever done improperly. When they can do that, when they can prove they are infallible and above reproach, then, and only then might they be excused for circumventing the checks and balances designed to discourage abuse and to preserve American civil liberties.

I won't hold my breath.

That isnt what we are talking about. We are talking about your avg run of the mill US citizen being listened to, which I dont think is the case. Anybody making calls to known AQ members are not your avg run of the mill US citizen.

Nice try to ignore that part of the conversation.

/clap

 
Genx87

That isnt what we are talking about. We are talking about your avg run of the mill US citizen being listened to, which I dont think is the case. Anybody making calls to known AQ members are not your avg run of the mill US citizen.

Are you suggesting that the NSA has a phonebook listing thousands of AQ phone numbers? That they only listen in on people who call these numbers? That we know so much about AQ that they need to rely on data mining software to examine the millions of intercepts they have collected on "known" AQ contacts?

I repeat what I've said from the outset of warrantless snooping: waste of resources, counter-productive, and illegal.
 
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Pabster
I'm sorry, but "Ordinary Americans" aren't making phone calls to Afghanistan and discussing plots with AQ members.

Your pathetic attempts (as well as those of the MSM) to make this out as "spying on ordinary, average Americans" are laughable.
And if you can prove that the only people/calls targeted are to or from Afghanistan, you'll have a point, albeit a weak one. Otherwise, your comment is dismissed as more empty knee-jerk Bush apologism.
Just as soon as you prove avg Americans were targeted.
Otherwise you are just spouting off baseless rhetoric.
And it's Genx87 in for the diversion ... he shoots ... he misses.

Sorry, no sale. I have the Constitution and specific legislation on my side. It is up to the Bush administration and its apologists to prove that these intrusions are legal, productive, and never, ever, ever done improperly. When they can do that, when they can prove they are infallible and above reproach, then, and only then might they be excused for circumventing the checks and balances designed to discourage abuse and to preserve American civil liberties.

I won't hold my breath.
That isnt what we are talking about. We are talking about your avg run of the mill US citizen being listened to, which I dont think is the case. Anybody making calls to known AQ members are not your avg run of the mill US citizen.

Nice try to ignore that part of the conversation.

/clap
It is exactly what we are talking about. We have a system of checks and balances to preserve the rights of all Americans, "ordinary" (whatever that means) or otherwise. Bush willfully chose to circumvent those checks and balances. He and his supporters bear the burden of proof. It is up to the Bush administration and its apologists to prove that these intrusions are legal, productive, and never, ever, ever done improperly. When they can do that, when they can prove they are infallible and above reproach, then, and only then might they be excused for circumventing the checks and balances designed to discourage abuse and to preserve American civil liberties.

That is the point, like it or not. The number of "ordinary" Americans violated is a diversion.


(PS. I love the way you and Pabsie keep trying to shift the goal posts. First Pabsie trys to limit the scope of the BushCo intrusions to "calls to Afghanistan", a limit BushCo never stipulated. Now you are dismissing it by limiting them to "calls to known AQ members". Pretty soon you'll be claiming they only monitored person to person calls to OBL himself. Pathetic.)
 
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
Genx87

That isnt what we are talking about. We are talking about your avg run of the mill US citizen being listened to, which I dont think is the case. Anybody making calls to known AQ members are not your avg run of the mill US citizen.

Are you suggesting that the NSA has a phonebook listing thousands of AQ phone numbers? That they only listen in on people who call these numbers? That we know so much about AQ that they need to rely on data mining software to examine the millions of intercepts they have collected on "known" AQ contacts?

I repeat what I've said from the outset of warrantless snooping: waste of resources, counter-productive, and illegal.

They have enough intelligence reports to know who is part of what.

Are you suggesting they are listening in on dear old grandma and getting her secret recipe for apple pie?


 
Genx87

They have enough intelligence reports to know who is part of what.

Are you suggesting they are listening in on dear old grandma and getting her secret recipe for apple pie?


As a matter of fact, that is exactly the I'm talking about. Thousands of dead-end leads! The recipe may well have been among them.

Nobody in their right mind could suggest that the millions of intercepts the NSA collects are all related to AQ.

And it seems reasonable that if we really knew about hundreds or thousands of AQ operatives, a single sweeping capture of them all would put an end to the organization.

The NSA is spying on ordinary, innocent people, without question. The best anyone could argue is: oops!, they made mistakes.

If you want to argue to the contrary, please offer a reasonable explaination for the thousands of dead-end leads instead of simply offering that the NSA has mystical and omnicient knowledge. Save the infallable knowledge arguments for the religion threads.
 
Originally posted by: arsbanned
Right, as if there are any guarantees that only people talking to AQ members in Afghanistan are being monitored. Sure thing.
Or can you provide us with evidence that is the case? Hello? Mr. Cheney?

Edit: Bow beat me to it. Great minds, etc etc. 😛

Got any evidence otherwise? Didn't think so.
 
Russell Tice has evidence he wants to present to congress. I wonder if they'll listen.

But even without a whistleblower it's just common sense (something sorely lacking among the Bush crowd) that Bush had the NSA spying on "average Americans" and indeed checking out grandma's recipe for apple pie.

Here's how common sense works. The NSA, with Bush's approval, tapped into the main switches of telephone companies across the nation. This much we already know. Now if they had information on specific targets why did they have to listen in on main telephone company switches? And furthermore, the NSA SHARED INFORMATION ON AVERAGE AMERICANS WITH THE FBI.

Did you bother to read the OP?

The NSA gave the FBI so much information on so many average Americans the FBI couldn't even keep up! AND ALL THE EVIDENCE THE NSA GAVE THE FBI ON AVERAGE AMERICANS, OBTAINED THROUGH THEIR ILLEGAL SPYING, LED TO DEAD ENDS -- contrary to what that lying douchebag Cheney said. Not one shred of "actionable intelligence". Hell, every one of the thousands upon thousands of phone numbers and addresses of average Americans the NSA illegally obtained then illegally shared with the FBI was a DEAD END.

What do we have to do to get you people to realize what's been going on in "the land of the free"??? Paint you a picture?

WTFU!
 
Originally posted by: BBond
Russell Tice has evidence he wants to present to congress. I wonder if they'll listen.

They'll have to get in to his jail cell for an interview :laugh: :laugh:

But even without a whistleblower it's just common sense (something sorely lacking among the Bush crowd) that Bush had the NSA spying on "average Americans" and indeed checking out grandma's recipe for apple pie.

Sounds like a Dean moment. No reasonable American believes the nonsense you and the media are parroting.

Here's how common sense works. The NSA, with Bush's approval, tapped into the main switches of telephone companies across the nation. This much we already know. Now if they had information on specific targets why did they have to listen in on main telephone company switches? And furthermore, the NSA SHARED INFORMATION ON AVERAGE AMERICANS WITH THE FBI.

Evidence? Proof? Or are you talking out your arse again, as usual? (And please, no lefty blogs or propaganda.)
 
Here's some information on the possible number of average Americans who have been spied on from former NSA employee turned whistleblower, Russell Tice

This is why when Russ Tice suggests that the number of Americans subject to Bush's eavesdropping program could be "in the millions," we should not immediately write him off as alarmist.

And in rebuttal to the wise crack about apple pie recipes, I like this line...

Whether your target is a soccer mom or Osama Bin Laden, you spend whole workweeks listening in?not just to the logistical preparations of terrorist plots but to gossip and grocery lists as well.

And here's a really funny line on some not so average Americans who were being spied on...

One day, she said, a colleague handed her a pair of headphones and let her listen to a conversation in Washington. One voice sounded familiar and when Newsham asked who it was, her colleague told her the speaker was Sen. Strom Thurmond.

More on Russell Tice and other whistleblowers in the full article -- for those who spend so much time in Bushworld Fantasyland that they may not have heard of him.

The Professional Paranoid

Why NSA whistle-blower Russ Tice may be right.

By Patrick Radden Keefe
Posted Tuesday, Jan. 17, 2006, at 5:15 PM ET

If the congressional hearings on domestic spying have anything like a star witness when they get under way next month, it will probably be a 43-year-old intelligence officer named Russ Tice. Until last May, Tice worked at the National Security Agency, on what are known as Special Access Programs?the umbrella designation for "black world" operations that includes the Bush administration's warrantless eavesdropping. In December, Tice said he was willing to testify about "probable unlawful and unconstitutional acts" by the NSA, and he has since acknowledged that he was one of the sources for James Risen's original scoop in the New York Times.

This appears to be great news for Congress: Because current NSA officials are likely to stonewall when asked about "sources and methods," arguing that even closed-session testimony could jeopardize national security, a chatty insider like Tice might save the investigation. But there's a catch. Shrill, twitchy, and Manichaean, your average whistle-blower often comes off as more crazy than confidence-inspiring. And when the whistle-blower happens also to be a professional eavesdropper?which is effectively to say, a professional paranoid?the weird factor can be especially pronounced. It may be tempting to write Tice off. But that would be a mistake. His intimate knowledge of America's surveillance apparatus might make him a little paranoid. In this case, however, it might also make him right.

Whenever a whistle-blower parts rank with a government agency or a major corporation, it's in the interests of the betrayed employer to depict the whistle-blower as unhinged. This skillfully plays on the public's preconceptions. If there's one naysayer in an institution of thousands, we're more apt to believe that she's nuts than that she's the only one who hasn't drunk the Kool-Aid. So far, the NSA hasn't responded to Tice. But if he holds forth before Congress about spying abuses, the agency will reply that he was dismissed last year after a pair of psychiatric evaluations deemed him "mentally unbalanced." In 2001, while he was working for the Defense Intelligence Agency, Tice became convinced that an Asian-American woman he was working with was a Chinese spy. He reported his suspicions and was told they were unfounded. When he transferred to NSA the following year, he continued to report his concerns to DIA. Learning of his persistence, NSA administered the psychiatric evaluations, which led to what is known as "red badge" status, or suspension of security clearance, a stigma that in Tice's secretive business can be professionally debilitating.

So, Tice's departure from the agency had nothing to do with the misgivings about domestic eavesdropping that he now professes. This isn't unusual. In the eavesdropping business, which relies for its survival on a code of silence more entrenched than anything the Mafia ever came up with, defectors seem to simmer in silence for years and then suddenly?and perhaps opportunistically?to blow their tops, detailing every infraction and violation they observed throughout their careers.

Tice's bid for credibility isn't helped by some whistle-blowers who have come before him. In 1988 a recently fired NSA contractor, Margaret Newsham, went public with an alarming story. Newsham had worked at Menwith Hill, the biggest eavesdropping base on the planet, located in England's Yorkshire moors but home to 1,400 American spies. One day, she said, a colleague handed her a pair of headphones and let her listen to a conversation in Washington. One voice sounded familiar and when Newsham asked who it was, her colleague told her the speaker was Sen. Strom Thurmond. But Newsham did not protest this violation of protocol at the time. She waited until she'd been fired and was embroiled in a wrongful termination suit. Then she blew the whistle with such promiscuity?alleging not only privacy violations, but also over-charging by contractors and sexual harassment?that she accomplished little. It didn't help that Newsham seemed like a textbook paranoid: She lived alone with a 120-pound guard dog named Mr. Gunther and once told a reporter she sleeps with a gun under her pillow for fear of government reprisals.

Another recent eavesdropper-turned-whistle-blower was Canadian spy Mike Frost, who was featured on 60 Minutes II in 2000. He made news by claiming that the United States and Canada were working together to wiretap civilians as part of the Echelon eavesdropping network. Frost related an alarming story about a soccer mom who ended up on a terrorist watch-list because she telephoned a friend to describe how her son had "bombed" in the elementary school play. But experts soon poked holes in this story. Frost tended to describe surveillance systems as all-powerful and omniscient; like Newsham, he sounded a little paranoid. And also like Newsham, he had held his tongue about his reservations until he parted ways with his agency for an unrelated reason. (In this case the reason was alcoholism?Frost's tell-all book reveals that he and his ghostwriter first met in AA.)

So far, though, Tice seems much more credible than Newsham or Frost. On ABC News and Larry King Live, he has come across as a pragmatic veteran of an esoteric front in the war on terror. Even before the wiretapping scandal, Tice's dismissal was being investigated by the Pentagon for possible improprieties. Independent psychiatric evaluations have deemed him perfectly stable. Agency officials can't be all that confident he'll be dismissed as a kook, because they're taking steps to keep him quiet. In a January 9 letter, the agency's director of Special Access Programs, Renee Seymour, warned Tice that he should not testify because members of the congressional intelligence committees are not cleared to hear information about secret intelligence (the basic problem with congressional oversight in a nutshell).

With its secretive culture and longstanding devotion to the pseudoscience of the polygraph exam, the NSA tends to throw around "mentally unbalanced" the way Marxists do "counterrevolutionary." In fact, the environment in which Tice, Newsham, and Frost spent their careers is a petri dish for paranoia. The profession breeds suspicion and isolation?from the yearlong interview and clearance process that it takes to get a job, to the regular polygraphs and psychological evaluations, to the instruction to tell neighbors only that you work "for the government."

In case all the secrecy isn't enough to make them five kinds of crazy, eavesdroppers also spend their days riffling through other people's private communications. Whether your target is a soccer mom or Osama Bin Laden, you spend whole workweeks listening in?not just to the logistical preparations of terrorist plots but to gossip and grocery lists as well. When civilians gain unusual insight into the scope of America's eavesdropping apparatus, as they have through the Times revelations, it often seems like science fiction. But for eavesdroppers, it's what allows you to do your job. This is why when Russ Tice suggests that the number of Americans subject to Bush's eavesdropping program could be "in the millions," we should not immediately write him off as alarmist.

Sources in addition to Tice sketched out the wiretapping program for the Times. But since the revelations became public, no one else has come forward. In an echo chamber of unnamed "senior officials," Tice has the virtue of being a flesh-and-blood witness with a name and a professional history. He can testify about his experiences working in the most secret divisions of the most secret intelligence agency in the country. He will be vigorously criticized by the administration and the NSA. And the details of his professional history, to say nothing of the Orwellian stories he may relate, will make it all too easy to dismiss his claims. But as the old joke goes, "You'd be paranoid too, if they were trying to kill you." Perhaps if we knew what he knows, we'd be a little more paranoid ourselves.

Related in SlateIn 2002, Julie Bosman explained the protections afforded by the Whistleblower Protection Act of 1989. Earlier this month, Shane Harris and Tim Naftali called the domestic snooping of the NSA "unprecedented" in scope. In 2005, Patrick Radden Keefe wrote why we should be unsurprised by the NSA's domestic spying. Paranoid? In 2002 Dan Simon described how to encrypt your e-mail.

Patrick Radden Keefe is the author of Chatter: Dispatches from the Secret World of Global Eavesdropping.

The bottom line for those who still can't seem to figure it out is this; They have to listen in on everything just to see if there is anything worth hearing to begin with. It's just common sense. And, as has been proven amply throughout the history of government eavesdropping, if they hear anything interesting -- even if it has nothing to do with what they're looking for in the first place -- they will share the illegally gained information with other government agencies which is one reason why they're required to get a warrant to begin with. Nothing good ever comes from any government going on fishing expeditions using illegal spying.

You people didn't support this kind of fascist government behavior when it was the USSR or the STASI in East Germany. Why are you defending and supporting it when it's your own government?

I think it's you who are insane, not the whistleblowers.

 
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: arsbanned
Right, as if there are any guarantees that only people talking to AQ members in Afghanistan are being monitored. Sure thing.
Or can you provide us with evidence that is the case? Hello? Mr. Cheney?

Edit: Bow beat me to it. Great minds, etc etc. 😛
Got any evidence otherwise? Didn't think so.
Run, Pabsie, run. It is up to the Bush administration and its apologists to prove that these intrusions are legal, productive, and never, ever, ever done improperly. When they can do that, when they can prove they are infallible and above reproach, then, and only then might they be excused for circumventing the checks and balances designed to discourage abuse and to preserve American civil liberties.
 
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: BBond
Russell Tice has evidence he wants to present to congress. I wonder if they'll listen.

They'll have to get in to his jail cell for an interview :laugh: :laugh:

But even without a whistleblower it's just common sense (something sorely lacking among the Bush crowd) that Bush had the NSA spying on "average Americans" and indeed checking out grandma's recipe for apple pie.

Sounds like a Dean moment. No reasonable American believes the nonsense you and the media are parroting.

Here's how common sense works. The NSA, with Bush's approval, tapped into the main switches of telephone companies across the nation. This much we already know. Now if they had information on specific targets why did they have to listen in on main telephone company switches? And furthermore, the NSA SHARED INFORMATION ON AVERAGE AMERICANS WITH THE FBI.

Evidence? Proof? Or are you talking out your arse again, as usual? (And please, no lefty blogs or propaganda.)

So you consider it a joke that people who are brave enough to tell America when their government is behaving like the KGB or the STASI are also jailed like they would be in the USSR, Communist China, North Korea, or East Germany?

And what I'm parrotting isn't nonsense. The idea that you dismiss it is.

Evidence and proof are in the articles posted and obtained from people who were involved in the illegal operations who felt compelled as Americans to expose the government's illegal activities. If you don't want to believe them then you are either one of those spies or, as I said above, simply insane.
 
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: BBond
Russell Tice has evidence he wants to present to congress. I wonder if they'll listen.

They'll have to get in to his jail cell for an interview :laugh: :laugh:
Your attitude is repugnant. You only highlight your own screwed up (im)morality when you think it is amusing to be jailed for wanting to testify to Congress about possible criminal activity. I thought you right-wingers claim to support law and order, honesty and integrity, justice. What a pathetic joke.


But even without a whistleblower it's just common sense (something sorely lacking among the Bush crowd) that Bush had the NSA spying on "average Americans" and indeed checking out grandma's recipe for apple pie.
Sounds like a Limbaugh moment. No brain-dead Bush fluffer believes the truth you and the media are parroting.
Fixed.



Here's how common sense works. The NSA, with Bush's approval, tapped into the main switches of telephone companies across the nation. This much we already know. Now if they had information on specific targets why did they have to listen in on main telephone company switches? And furthermore, the NSA SHARED INFORMATION ON AVERAGE AMERICANS WITH THE FBI.
Evidence? Proof? Or are you talking out your arse again, as usual? (And please, no lefty blogs or propaganda.)
One more time. It is up to the Bush administration and its apologists to prove that these intrusions are legal, productive, and never, ever, ever done improperly. When they can do that, when they can prove they are infallible and above reproach, then, and only then might they be excused for circumventing the checks and balances designed to discourage abuse and to preserve American civil liberties.
 
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
Genx87

They have enough intelligence reports to know who is part of what.

Are you suggesting they are listening in on dear old grandma and getting her secret recipe for apple pie?


As a matter of fact, that is exactly the I'm talking about. Thousands of dead-end leads! The recipe may well have been among them.

Nobody in their right mind could suggest that the millions of intercepts the NSA collects are all related to AQ.

And it seems reasonable that if we really knew about hundreds or thousands of AQ operatives, a single sweeping capture of them all would put an end to the organization.

The NSA is spying on ordinary, innocent people, without question. The best anyone could argue is: oops!, they made mistakes.

If you want to argue to the contrary, please offer a reasonable explaination for the thousands of dead-end leads instead of simply offering that the NSA has mystical and omnicient knowledge. Save the infallable knowledge arguments for the religion threads.

Yet you have no proof whatsoever except a hunch they have spied on ordinary innocent citizens.



 
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
Genx87

They have enough intelligence reports to know who is part of what.

Are you suggesting they are listening in on dear old grandma and getting her secret recipe for apple pie?


As a matter of fact, that is exactly the I'm talking about. Thousands of dead-end leads! The recipe may well have been among them.

Nobody in their right mind could suggest that the millions of intercepts the NSA collects are all related to AQ.

And it seems reasonable that if we really knew about hundreds or thousands of AQ operatives, a single sweeping capture of them all would put an end to the organization.

The NSA is spying on ordinary, innocent people, without question. The best anyone could argue is: oops!, they made mistakes.

If you want to argue to the contrary, please offer a reasonable explaination for the thousands of dead-end leads instead of simply offering that the NSA has mystical and omnicient knowledge. Save the infallable knowledge arguments for the religion threads.

Yet you have no proof whatsoever except a hunch they have spied on ordinary innocent citizens.

Did they need proof to investigate Clinton for 8 years??? LMAO, now we need proof to justify an investigation?? You've lost it buddy.
 
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
Genx87

They have enough intelligence reports to know who is part of what.

Are you suggesting they are listening in on dear old grandma and getting her secret recipe for apple pie?


As a matter of fact, that is exactly the I'm talking about. Thousands of dead-end leads! The recipe may well have been among them.

Nobody in their right mind could suggest that the millions of intercepts the NSA collects are all related to AQ.

And it seems reasonable that if we really knew about hundreds or thousands of AQ operatives, a single sweeping capture of them all would put an end to the organization.

The NSA is spying on ordinary, innocent people, without question. The best anyone could argue is: oops!, they made mistakes.

If you want to argue to the contrary, please offer a reasonable explaination for the thousands of dead-end leads instead of simply offering that the NSA has mystical and omnicient knowledge. Save the infallable knowledge arguments for the religion threads.

Yet you have no proof whatsoever except a hunch they have spied on ordinary innocent citizens.

Did they need proof to investigate Clinton for 8 years???

They had plenty, if not, why did the investigations yield so many indictments and plea agreements?
 
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
Genx87

They have enough intelligence reports to know who is part of what.

Are you suggesting they are listening in on dear old grandma and getting her secret recipe for apple pie?


As a matter of fact, that is exactly the I'm talking about. Thousands of dead-end leads! The recipe may well have been among them.

Nobody in their right mind could suggest that the millions of intercepts the NSA collects are all related to AQ.

And it seems reasonable that if we really knew about hundreds or thousands of AQ operatives, a single sweeping capture of them all would put an end to the organization.

The NSA is spying on ordinary, innocent people, without question. The best anyone could argue is: oops!, they made mistakes.

If you want to argue to the contrary, please offer a reasonable explaination for the thousands of dead-end leads instead of simply offering that the NSA has mystical and omnicient knowledge. Save the infallable knowledge arguments for the religion threads.

Yet you have no proof whatsoever except a hunch they have spied on ordinary innocent citizens.

Read the articles I posted. If you can't figure this out from them then there really is no use discussing this with you any longer. You won't get it until you hear the knock on your door. Or maybe it'll be your neighbor's door and you won't have to care.
 
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