Spread of nuclear capability feared

[Socio]

Spread of nuclear capability feared

VIENNA - At least 40 developing countries from the Persian Gulf region to Latin America have recently approached U.N. officials here to signal interest in starting nuclear power programs, a trend that concerned proliferation experts say could provide the building blocks of nuclear arsenals in some of those nations.

At least half a dozen countries have also said in the past four years that they are specifically planning to conduct enrichment or reprocessing of nuclear fuel, a prospect that could dramatically expand the global supply of plutonium and enriched uranium, according to U.S. and international nuclear officials and arms-control experts.

Much of the new interest is driven by economic considerations, particularly the soaring cost of fossil fuels. But for some Middle Eastern states with ready access to huge stocks of oil or natural gas, such as Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, the investment in nuclear power appears to be linked partly to concerns about a future regional arms race stoked in part by Iran's alleged interest in such an arsenal, the officials said.

This is the start of the domino affect that the world let start by not kicking the crap out of Iran years ago. Now we are going to have a plethora of nuclear capable nations all using the guise of rising fuel costs as an excuse to become a nuclear power.

I think history will say the biggest mistake ever made was not removing a Middle Eastern government (Iraq) it will be the removing of the wrong one.

Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has said that he believes he will be the one to usher in the new Islamic messiah. I have also heard it said by some that Iran is the first horse of the apocalypse and the others are coming. Seems now like both sides are right to a degree and Ahmadinejad is going to usher something in only not a messiah it will be the god damn devil himself.

 

[StageLeft]

Apparently some of these oil rich nations do actually have power issues. They have a lot of raw product but poor grids.

I think history will say the biggest mistake ever made was not removing a Middle Eastern government (Iraq) it will be the removing of the wrong one.

Perhaps, but because of the first mistake, it's not tenable to try and avoid the second.

 

[techs]

The real spread of nuclear proliferation and the reason for this is the great US ally Pakistan which knowingly spread nuclear technology and know how around the world for a price.


All I see is a thread trying to provoke war with Iran.
Nice try, Bush.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

We "kicked the crap" out of Iraq, which was child's play compared to controlling Iran. Note how well that's gone.

 

[Lemon law]

I totally disagree with the take of Socio.

Many nation on earth do not have abundant supplies of oil, gas, or coal. And Nuclear energy offers a cheaper way to generate electricity and have some degree of energy independence.

Nor can the message of Iraq be ignored as the one remaining super power on earth transformed itself from the protector
of the weak to a complete thief. As they made a totally bogus case against a a militarily weak nation with abundant natural resources. And then invaded and occupied. And if they can get away with in Iraq for totally bogus reasons, they can do it to any nation.

Nor has new technologies like smart bombs made the weaker nations any safer. In terms of taking out their defenses and forcing their military surrender, what would formerly have taken thousands of air craft sorties requiring near by land bases, can now be done by the planes available on a single air craft carrier.

And that does send a chilling message to any small nation on earth, unless you develop nukes, you are both vulnerable for rapid military take over or you will be blackmail forced to comply with the foreign policy of the USA. And given the incompetence of recent US occupations, even the repressed citizens of brutal dictators find it impossible to believe they would be better off being liberated by the US.

So I have to believe that sociopaths in the administration of GWB&co. are the ones driving much of those 40 nuclear applications. In a world gone mad, the rational cling to any defense. They can't possibly compete with the existing military might of the USA in terms of convention armaments and that leaves only the nuclear option.

And when that many nations make that application, they will side with nations like Iran in the UN.

In short, our PNAC neocons are total idiots. Their misguided policy has turned into the project to doom America in the new century.

So in terms of fixing the thread title of--This it what the world gets for letting Iran do what they want. We can fix it by saying this what we get when we let our neocons do what they want ( fixed for You )

Socio evidently does not remember the days when Rummy was shacking the hand of Saddam when he was our man in the mid-east. And shortly thereafter Iraq was invading Iran while we helped him. And when Iran made some peace overtures to the USA, GWB and Cheney spurned them. How else is Iran supposed to react or do we just expect Iran to sell themselves into slavery because its their Christian duty to submit to the USA? In short we treat Iran like shit and then are shocked, surprised, and offended when they react with hostility? I mean seriously Socio, get a life, what the hell do you expect?

 

[Socio]

Originally posted by: techs
The real spread of nuclear proliferation and the reason for this is the great US ally Pakistan which knowingly spread nuclear technology and know how around the world for a price.


All I see is a thread trying to provoke war with Iran.
Nice try, Bush.

All the more reason to have crushed Iran?s nuclear plans long ago showing the world that nuclear proliferation will not be tolerated. As a repercussion it would have also destroyed Pakistan?s nuclear black market as no one would dare purchase any of it.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

Originally posted by: Socio

Originally posted by: techs
The real spread of nuclear proliferation and the reason for this is the great US ally Pakistan which knowingly spread nuclear technology and know how around the world for a price.


All I see is a thread trying to provoke war with Iran.
Nice try, Bush.

All the more reason to have crushed Iran?s nuclear plans long ago showing the world that nuclear proliferation will not be tolerated. As a repercussion it would have also destroyed Pakistan?s nuclear black market as no one would dare purchase any of it.

You do realize that designing/building a reactor, and even designing/building a nuclear weapon, is pure science and engineering, and not something that anyone can prevent, right?

So you have unilaterally decided that no one else in the world is allowed to use nuclear power, what do you suggest all these other countries use?

 

[techs]

Originally posted by: Socio

Originally posted by: techs
The real spread of nuclear proliferation and the reason for this is the great US ally Pakistan which knowingly spread nuclear technology and know how around the world for a price.


All I see is a thread trying to provoke war with Iran.
Nice try, Bush.

All the more reason to have crushed Iran?s nuclear plans long ago showing the world that nuclear proliferation will not be tolerated. As a repercussion it would have also destroyed Pakistan?s nuclear black market as no one would dare purchase any of it.

Yes, crushing a countries nuclear technology will surely stop other countries from trying to develope nuclear technology because the fear us.

 

[bamacre]

Ahh, the USA. The world's new tyrant. Telling others what they can and can not do. And using military and economic warfare when they don't stand up straight, line up, and fall in.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I totally disagree with the take of Socio.

Many nation on earth do not have abundant supplies of oil, gas, or coal. And Nuclear energy offers a cheaper way to generate electricity and have some degree of energy independence.

Nor can the message of Iraq be ignored as the one remaining super power on earth transformed itself from the protector
of the weak to a complete thief. As they made a totally bogus case against a a militarily weak nation with abundant natural resources. And then invaded and occupied. And if they can get away with in Iraq for totally bogus reasons, they can do it to any nation.

Nor has new technologies like smart bombs made the weaker nations any safer. In terms of taking out their defenses and forcing their military surrender, what would formerly have taken thousands of air craft sorties requiring near by land bases, can now be done by the planes available on a single air craft carrier.

And that does send a chilling message to any small nation on earth, unless you develop nukes, you are both vulnerable for rapid military take over or you will be blackmail forced to comply with the foreign policy of the USA. And given the incompetence of recent US occupations, even the repressed citizens of brutal dictators find it impossible to believe they would be better off being liberated by the US.

So I have to believe that sociopaths in the administration of GWB&co. are the ones driving much of those 40 nuclear applications. In a world gone mad, the rational cling to any defense. They can't possibly compete with the existing military might of the USA in terms of convention armaments and that leaves only the nuclear option.

And when that many nations make that application, they will side with nations like Iran in the UN.

In short, our PNAC neocons are total idiots. Their misguided policy has turned into the project to doom America in the new century.

So in terms of fixing the thread title of--This it what the world gets for letting Iran do what they want. We can fix it by saying this what we get when we let our neocons do what they want ( fixed for You )

Socio evidently does not remember the days when Rummy was shacking the hand of Saddam when he was our man in the mid-east. And shortly thereafter Iraq was invading Iran while we helped him. And when Iran made some peace overtures to the USA, GWB and Cheney spurned them. How else is Iran supposed to react or do we just expect Iran to sell themselves into slavery because its their Christian duty to submit to the USA? In short we treat Iran like shit and then are shocked, surprised, and offended when they react with hostility? I mean seriously Socio, get a life, what the hell do you expect?

I cringe vicariously. The pwnage was strong in this post.

 

[Jhhnn]

Heh. I love ravings about the apocalypse. The fear, guilt, finger pointing, and self-righteous posturing are truly delicious in a black humor sort of way.

Maybe the world wants nuclear power... and maybe the nations mentioned aren't hedging their bets wrt teh ebil eyeraynyuns, at all, but rather wrt Israel and the US...

That's the part none of the fearmongers want to examine, at all... Nor would they want to acknowledge that nuclear power and fuel enrichment are basic guarantees of the NPT within the proper protocols...

 

[jjones]

It seems fairly hypocritical that some nations can have nuclear weapons, and then dictate to the rest of the world's countries on policies of nuclear armament. If the UN and especially the UN Security Council, had any worth at all, they would insist and demand that no countries have nuclear arms. Nuclear energy sure, no problem, but no weapons or weapons capabilities. But the UN is a joke, as is the Security Council members' position on nuclear arms.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: bamacre
Ahh, the USA. The world's new tyrant. Telling others what they can and can not do. And using military and economic warfare when they don't stand up straight, line up, and fall in.

Well, in this regard, its nothing new. Unless 50 years history is new *shrug*

 

[Socio]

Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat

Originally posted by: Socio

Originally posted by: techs
The real spread of nuclear proliferation and the reason for this is the great US ally Pakistan which knowingly spread nuclear technology and know how around the world for a price.


All I see is a thread trying to provoke war with Iran.
Nice try, Bush.

All the more reason to have crushed Iran?s nuclear plans long ago showing the world that nuclear proliferation will not be tolerated. As a repercussion it would have also destroyed Pakistan?s nuclear black market as no one would dare purchase any of it.

You do realize that designing/building a reactor, and even designing/building a nuclear weapon, is pure science and engineering, and not something that anyone can prevent, right?

So you have unilaterally decided that no one else in the world is allowed to use nuclear power, what do you suggest all these other countries use?

No, I think nuclear ?energy? is a good idea, anything that helps us wean off of fossil fuel is a good thing;

I suggest that countries that want actual ? nuclear energy? purchase it from a world regulated body and the counties themselves would neither own, maintain or operate the nuclear facilities on their soil, They instead would be owned, operated, and maintain by the regulated body. All of which would have emergency air evacuation facilities and craft and be fitted with self destruct mechanisms that can be activated from anywhere in the world.

This would prevent any country from doing what Iran is did and that is let others help them, and allow inspections until they reached the point where they could move past just energy and into the weapons arena then kick all the opposed out.

The self destruct mechanisms would prevent any nation from trying to take over the facilities themselves like Chavez did with the oil refineries in Venezuela.

This would allow all countries to obtain cheap energy in the safest manner possible.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Heh. I love ravings about the apocalypse. The fear, guilt, finger pointing, and self-righteous posturing are truly delicious in a black humor sort of way.

Maybe the world wants nuclear power... and maybe the nations mentioned aren't hedging their bets wrt teh ebil eyeraynyuns, at all, but rather wrt Israel and the US...

That's the part none of the fearmongers want to examine, at all... Nor would they want to acknowledge that nuclear power and fuel enrichment are basic guarantees of the NPT within the proper protocols...

Pakistan, NK as example

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Socio
No, I think nuclear ?energy? is a good idea, anything that helps us wean off of fossil fuel is a good thing;

I suggest that countries that want actual ? nuclear energy? purchase it from a world regulated body and the counties themselves would neither own, maintain or operate the nuclear facilities on their soil, They instead would be owned, operated, and maintain by the regulated body. All of which would have emergency air evacuation facilities and craft and be fitted with self destruct mechanisms that can be activated from anywhere in the world.

This would prevent any country from doing what Iran is did and that is let others help them, and allow inspections until they reached the point where they could move past just energy and into the weapons arena then kick all the opposed out.

The self destruct mechanisms would prevent any nation from trying to take over the facilities themselves like Chavez did with the oil refineries in Venezuela.

This would allow all countries to obtain cheap energy in the safest manner possible.

The issue becomes getting the energy to the proper location. (the word energy dos not have to be just Nuke either)

If country A is generating/providing it, it has to have transmission methods to country B.

That will cost money.

Also, country B is now dependent on country A to provide the energy. What happens if A decides to blackmail B with enegery brownouts, blackouts or cutoff.

Any country that is not self sufficient and/or unable to handle a reduction in energy supplies, places itself at the whims of others (countries, distributers, traders, etc)

 

[Lemon law]

To Skoorb,

I am somewhat puzzled by your----I cringe vicariously. The pwnage was strong in this post.

I am an American and I want what is best for America. And what is best for the larger world. Which is why I am horrified
by our current behavior.

And also ask why does what is best for American and the rest of the world have to be incompatible things? We have the power to look for win lose scenarios or look for win win scenarios. Choosing only the former is not working out very well
in case no one noticed.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
To Skoorb,

I am somewhat puzzled by your----I cringe vicariously. The pwnage was strong in this post.

I am an American and I want what is best for America. And what is best for the larger world. Which is why I am horrified
by our current behavior.

And also ask why does what is best for American and the rest of the world have to be incompatible things? We have the power to look for win lose scenarios or look for win win scenarios. Choosing only the former is not working out very well
in case no one noticed.

I mean, your post pwned the OP's

 

[kage69]

National ego is of course a factor involved when a country wants to join the nuclear club, but we can't be so obtuse to think our own behavior lately hasn't contributed to this desire for defense (unless of course, you're a neoconservative or similar kind of idiot). This is what happens when a super power shows utter disregard for international law and chooses to follow a course of preemption on the most flimsy of supporting rationals.

Were we in their place(s), we'd be doing the same thing.

And how funny is it, in a depressingly partisan manner of course, that despite the topic there is no mention of North Korea?
More selective idealism leading the charge to war FTW!


Wake up cheerleaders, or at the very least try and recall what happened in 2001-2003 and compare it to what we now know.

 

[piasabird]

I dont think you can stop it.

 

[BoberFett]

I normally think Lemon Law is a very confused individual, however the bitch-slapping he gave Socio here was fantastic.

 

[GrGr]

I think we should make the Middle East a nuclear arms free zone.

 

[NeoV]

If Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is one of the horsemen, can't you just tank each of the four horsemen, and take them down one by one?

Or are you referring to some other horsemen?

 

[conehead433]

I don't have a problem with any or all countries having nuclear power plants, providing they are run safely and overseen by the IAEA. We definitely need more nuclear power plants here in the US so we can move away from using coal to produce electricity. We could be extracting oil from coal instead. With the proper oversight none of the countries new to nuclear power would have any kind of weapons programs. Ideally the world would be a better place without nuclear weapons but it's a little late for that.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Heh. I love ravings about the apocalypse. The fear, guilt, finger pointing, and self-righteous posturing are truly delicious in a black humor sort of way.

Maybe the world wants nuclear power... and maybe the nations mentioned aren't hedging their bets wrt teh ebil eyeraynyuns, at all, but rather wrt Israel and the US...

That's the part none of the fearmongers want to examine, at all... Nor would they want to acknowledge that nuclear power and fuel enrichment are basic guarantees of the NPT within the proper protocols...

Yeah I know I'm amazed. The end times, the apocalypse, the four hoursemen...I can see what drives him. No wonder he is scared of Muslims taking over to death, he is a radical himself talking as if we live in the last days.

Originally posted by: NeoV
If Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is one of the horsemen, can't you just tank each of the four horsemen, and take them down one by one?

Or are you referring to some other horsemen?

Nah it should still be possible. If we can get a warrior with uber instance tank gear, I'll volunteer to re spec and purchase some healing gear and spam my heals - of course we'll probably need about 8 priests (4 shadow, 4 holy) to keep the heals up, as well as to act as mana batteries. Anyone in?

And yes I read Lemon Law's post and went "uhhh LOL what else would I add?"