*SPOILER* I so totally understood what happened and why in Matrix: Revolutions *SPOILER*

[rpc64]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Ok, here is my st@b at all of it.

1. The existence of Merovig and other "exiles" is to prove that a WHOLE civilization is being developed IN the matrix. that the entire matrix is NOT just a figment of the imagination or of a series of programs. Call it the evolution of AI or whatever.

2. The existence of Zion gives humans 2 choices for existence. they can CHOOSE to remain IN THE matrix as a valid form of existence OR they can choose to leave the matrix and live outside of it.

3. a lot of people are upset because they feel that existence inside the matrix is some kind of evil, that WASN'T the point of this series. Existence IN the matrix is a VALID alternative for existence.

4. the architect and the Oracle maintain a balance whereby they continue to allow the matrix to evolve to accomodate BOTH forms of existence.

5. the VICTORY of NEO was that finally the SOURCE and Machine world accepted the existence of Zion.

Winnar. This is correct. And the little girl is the program that controls the sunrise/sunset. Remember when she said she made it for Neo?

 

[gwlam12]

Originally posted by: Aharami

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Yes and no, Smith is the balance to Neo. But Neo himself was the balance to the imperfect matrix (reference Reloaded - Architect scene). Neo allowed Smith to win so that Smith could understand choice, and why Neo sacrificed himself. The machines also understood Neo's choice, which is why Neo was jacked in in the machine world. Once Neo was absorbed by Smith, this allowed the machines to kill Neo in the physical world - the mind can't live without the body and vice versa. This killed Neo/Smith in the Matrix. And once Neo died - All things have a beginning and an end, and without Neo, Smith had no purpose, hence his program too terminated.

I can't answer your second question though. I am not certain as to how everyone survived being Smith when Smith terminated, and I too can only assume that somehow Neo would have survived as well if that were the case. However, again, I assume that Neo's body had been killed in order to destroy Smith. So where does that leave Neo's consciousness.

see thats where i dont agree. smith's purpose was to destroy all of humanity...not just to destroy neo. here's what i think happened. when smith took over neo, neo's mind was "overwritten". but smith was now connected to the matrix thru neo's body. remember, smith had disconnected himself from the matrix in the 2nd one...hence the lack of the earphone...just like in the first one when he took off his earphone in the morpheus/humans as virii scene, he was disconnected from the matrix and the other agents could not communicate to him and smith was not aware of what was goin on in the lobby. but in the end of M3, smith got connected to the matrix thru neo's body and once he was connected, the machines could delete his program and restore the matrix to normality. thats why they cut to neo's body in the machine world right after smith infected him in the matrix.

nonono..in reloaded, smith tells neo that the only reason he's still around after being destroyed (in part 1) is because of neo.

what i dont get, though, is how neo turns into smith at the end of revolutions, when in reloaded, he doesnt turn into smith. maybe cuz he didnt allow himself to?

 

[Goosemaster]

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[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: cpals

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Ok, here is my st@b at all of it.

1. The existence of Merovig and other "exiles" is to prove that a WHOLE civilization is being developed IN the matrix. that the entire matrix is NOT just a figment of the imagination or of a series of programs. Call it the evolution of AI or whatever.

2. The existence of Zion gives humans 2 choices for existence. they can CHOOSE to remain IN THE matrix as a valid form of existence OR they can choose to leave the matrix and live outside of it.

3. a lot of people are upset because they feel that existence inside the matrix is some kind of evil, that WASN'T the point of this series. Existence IN the matrix is a VALID alternative for existence.

4. the architect and the Oracle maintain a balance whereby they continue to allow the matrix to evolve to accomodate BOTH forms of existence.

5. the VICTORY of NEO was that finally the SOURCE and Machine world accepted the existence of Zion.

Sounds good to me. I don't see why people are saying that Merovingi and Seriph guy's were once "The Ones." I saw no place that mentioned that.

What I DO want to know is (unless I missed it), did they ever explain how Neo could control the robots outside of the Matrix?

Oh yeah, I bet all the people saying there were like 3 levels of matrix's feel dumb. 😉

no, they never explicitly explained it. just the fact that neo was in the train station while NOT jacked in was supposed to show you that neo had a connection to the matrix and the source even when not jacked in, hence he had some control over machines outside of the matrix.

over thinking this movie is whats causing so many people to be disappointed.

ultimately the conclusion for me from this movie is.

It's not the ESSENCE of existence / reality that's important (whether you are in the matrix or in zion) but it's the choices we make that are important. even those that CHOOSE to remain in zion continue to live and make choices etc.

 

[SunnyD]

Wow, all good stuff here. Some of you are going in different directions than I expected to see in here, but it's all civil, so that's good. Didn't expect the thread to live this long.

 

[DanJ]

Originally posted by: gwlam12
nonono..in reloaded, smith tells neo that the only reason he's still around after being destroyed (in part 1) is because of neo.

what i dont get, though, is how neo turns into smith at the end of revolutions, when in reloaded, he doesnt turn into smith. maybe cuz he didnt allow himself to?

Neo allows Smith to overtake him because he knows (just as the Oracle did) that its the only way for Smith's program to end. A program with no purpose is deleted.

Or, if that explanation isn't good enough, it could be said that by overtaking Neo, Smith was jacked directly into the machine master control we'll say, thereby allowing the machines to delete him.

 

[OmarGustav]

I don't think I will waste the money to see this one. I wasted $10 on that last disappointing movie...

 

[Cuda1447]

Originally posted by: DanJ

Originally posted by: gwlam12
nonono..in reloaded, smith tells neo that the only reason he's still around after being destroyed (in part 1) is because of neo.

what i dont get, though, is how neo turns into smith at the end of revolutions, when in reloaded, he doesnt turn into smith. maybe cuz he didnt allow himself to?

Neo allows Smith to overtake him because he knows (just as the Oracle did) that its the only way for Smith's program to end. A program with no purpose is deleted.

Or, if that explanation isn't good enough, it could be said that by overtaking Neo, Smith was jacked directly into the machine master control we'll say, thereby allowing the machines to delete him.

What about the other programs that had no purpose anymore, they were able to go into Exile, so why couldn't Smith do that?

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Cuda1447

Originally posted by: DanJ

Originally posted by: gwlam12
nonono..in reloaded, smith tells neo that the only reason he's still around after being destroyed (in part 1) is because of neo.

what i dont get, though, is how neo turns into smith at the end of revolutions, when in reloaded, he doesnt turn into smith. maybe cuz he didnt allow himself to?

Neo allows Smith to overtake him because he knows (just as the Oracle did) that its the only way for Smith's program to end. A program with no purpose is deleted.

Or, if that explanation isn't good enough, it could be said that by overtaking Neo, Smith was jacked directly into the machine master control we'll say, thereby allowing the machines to delete him.

What about the other programs that had no purpose anymore, they were able to go into Exile, so why couldn't Smith do that?

It wasn't in Smith's programming to go into exile... he wanted to destroy the Matrix, and eventually gain supreme power over the real world as well. The whole purpose thing is wrong, Smith wasn't destroyed b/c his purpose was over, he was destroyed by the machines deleting his source code through Neo.

 

[gwlam12]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: Cuda1447

Originally posted by: DanJ

Originally posted by: gwlam12
nonono..in reloaded, smith tells neo that the only reason he's still around after being destroyed (in part 1) is because of neo.

what i dont get, though, is how neo turns into smith at the end of revolutions, when in reloaded, he doesnt turn into smith. maybe cuz he didnt allow himself to?

Neo allows Smith to overtake him because he knows (just as the Oracle did) that its the only way for Smith's program to end. A program with no purpose is deleted.

Or, if that explanation isn't good enough, it could be said that by overtaking Neo, Smith was jacked directly into the machine master control we'll say, thereby allowing the machines to delete him.

What about the other programs that had no purpose anymore, they were able to go into Exile, so why couldn't Smith do that?

It wasn't in Smith's programming to go into exile... he wanted to destroy the Matrix, and eventually gain supreme power over the real world as well. The whole purpose thing is wrong, Smith wasn't destroyed b/c his purpose was over, he was destroyed by the machines deleting his source code through Neo.

I dont think there is a right or wrong since there are so many different interpretations.

Smith didn't go into exile because he "disobeyed," as he said in Reloaded. And I will repeat myself, the only reason he is still around is because of Neo, which he had mentioned in Reloaded.

Even when he went into the real world, his focus was on Neo.

 

[Ns1]

Oh yeah, I bet all the people saying there were like 3 levels of matrix's feel dumb

would've made this movie alot better if it were true.

 

[rpc64]

Originally posted by: NeuroSynapsis

Oh yeah, I bet all the people saying there were like 3 levels of matrix's feel dumb

would've made this movie alot better if it were true.

No it wouldn't, that would be way too convoluted.

 

[Sid59]

this thread clarified a bit of the movie for me. all i can think was WTF when i was watching it.

 

[NeoV]

I for one am very glad the matrix-within-a-matrix theories didn't turn out to be true, but I still don't get a few things...

liked the movie though...

Merovingian and Seraph - didn't Merv call Seraph something similar to "the one" ? I think Seraph is clearly a former "one", but I don't think Merv is...

 

[BunLengthHotDog]

Seraph and Merv are PROGRAMS...they are not previous Ones.

Merovingian " I have survived your predecessors, and I will survive you "

Neo to the Oracle " I would say your a program from the machine world...and so is he "
Oracle " Good so far "

Previous Ones do not reappear in the next iteration of the Matrix...there code is written into the Source, to better each version. They no longer exist.

NOW, I do have issues with how little of Seraphs story we know. He is called "the prodigal son" (Merovingian); "Wingless" (Club Hell Bouncers) ; and most importantly "Judas" (Smith). The Judas reference alone SCREAMS that his is a program not unlike the Agents are. I basically think he is a program who did the same thing the Oracle did...and thats help the Humans instead of the Machines / Matrix. The "wingless" comment seems to refer to a fallen angel of sorts...."The prodigal son" comment COMPLETELY baffles me

 

[tallest1]

From the point of view of the crew of the rescuing hovership, why did no one care when they found Neo in the Matrix when he wasn't jacked in? According to what they know, that kind of stuff shouldn't happen AT ALL

 

[SunnyD]

Originally posted by: tallest1
From the point of view of the crew of the rescuing hovership, why did no one care when they found Neo in the Matrix when he wasn't jacked in? According to what they know, that kind of stuff shouldn't happen AT ALL

With several thousand sentinels attacking their home and them with an EMP capable of possibly saving Zion and their loved ones, would you have cared much either?

 

[Axon]

I thought the movie was very clear. The Wachowski's gave more than I thought they would. That does not mean I'm some delusional fanboy who cannot see the flaws in this film.

1. The Oracle was in control the ENTIRE time Smith has overtaken her. Smith even says it - "if you knew I was coming, why are you still here?" Because to defeat Smith, the Oracle had be taken over and say what she said to Neo in the crater at the end of superbrawl. Neo and the Oracle have the sight, and once they understand their choices they can see to the next one. A lame plot device, but relatively fitting.

Further blatant proof - the Merovingian says "The eyes of the Oracle must be given. They cannot be taken."

Neo was not unplugged. Watch carefully - he chooses to delete Smith and himself. He is still jacked in as he dies. The Neo/Smith even nods and smirks before the Oracle/Smith realizes what's going to happen.

2. The little girl - her purpose is to show that programs are now capable of love. Amidst all the grand speculation that she's the next "one" or the next oracle, the simple fact THAT SHE IS A PROGRAM AND WAS CREATED BY TWO OTHER PROGRAMS AND NOT THE ARCHITECT has eluded many. I thought her purpose was weather systems or something, though a case could be made for other things.

She's not the Oracle. You'd think the new Oracle wouldn't need to ask the actual Oracle if Neo was coming back. She'd know.

3. Neither Seraph nor the Merovingian were previous ones. The One does not survive, nor is he a program, though he does become some kind of weird human/program hybrid. The one's purpose is to touch the source, reload the Matrix, free the first Zionites and then be assimilated back into the source.

Now for a critique:

Too many characters - Many of the primary characters lost out on time to focus on Zion fighters. That's fine, but seeing Morpheus reduced to a shell of his former self as he whines to Niobe while she pilots the Hammer was really, really annoying.

More explanation - I realize they wanted this film open to interpretation. However, just because you put a reference in to something doesn't make it brilliant. Explain your wacky references and the line of thought behind them.

A more satisfying ending - Neo could have at least not gotten his a** kicked by Smith. If it was clearer that Neo allowed Smith to take him over, I think people would have been happier with the ending.

A good flick though, but it never could have lived up to the explinations. People on the Matrix Fan Forums were asking questions like "WAS THIS THE BEST MOVIE YOU'VE EVER SEEN?" What? C'mon, if that's what you expect you're going to be let down....

 

[Sid59]

but but .. Neo has the FORCE!

 

[johneetrash]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

5. the VICTORY of NEO was that finally the SOURCE and Machine world accepted the existence of Zion.

i dont think it's so much that the source/machine world accepts the existence of zion. they're just letting them live now. it's not like the machines didnt know about zion, just that their job was to destroy zion so that the one could reload the matrix.

you have to assume the previous 5 matrix's happened the same way (up until when neo reaches the architect). the purpose of the one was to pick those 23 people and the rest of zion dies.

(does that make any sense?)

 

[johneetrash]

Originally posted by: Axon

Too many characters - Many of the primary characters lost out on time to focus on Zion fighters. That's fine, but seeing Morpheus reduced to a shell of his former self as he whines to Niobe while she pilots the Hammer was really, really annoying.

i think morpheus became a wuss because all of his beliefs and everything he lived for went down the drain when he found out the prophecy was a lie. he probably just never recovered from that

 

[kozman31]

Originally posted by: Axon
I thought the movie was very clear. The Wachowski's gave more than I thought they would. That does not mean I'm some delusional fanboy who cannot see the flaws in this film.

1. The Oracle was in control the ENTIRE time Smith has overtaken her. Smith even says it - "if you knew I was coming, why are you still here?" Because to defeat Smith, the Oracle had be taken over and say what she said to Neo in the crater at the end of superbrawl. Neo and the Oracle have the sight, and once they understand their choices they can see to the next one. A lame plot device, but relatively fitting.

Further blatant proof - the Merovingian says "The eyes of the Oracle must be given. They cannot be taken."

Neo was not unplugged. Watch carefully - he chooses to delete Smith and himself. He is still jacked in as he dies. The Neo/Smith even nods and smirks before the Oracle/Smith realizes what's going to happen.

2. The little girl - her purpose is to show that programs are now capable of love. Amidst all the grand speculation that she's the next "one" or the next oracle, the simple fact THAT SHE IS A PROGRAM AND WAS CREATED BY TWO OTHER PROGRAMS AND NOT THE ARCHITECT has eluded many. I thought her purpose was weather systems or something, though a case could be made for other things.

She's not the Oracle. You'd think the new Oracle wouldn't need to ask the actual Oracle if Neo was coming back. She'd know.

3. Neither Seraph nor the Merovingian were previous ones. The One does not survive, nor is he a program, though he does become some kind of weird human/program hybrid. The one's purpose is to touch the source, reload the Matrix, free the first Zionites and then be assimilated back into the source.

I agree with most of what you say except for 1 little thing. I don't think that it's Neo deciding to delete himself and Smith. I believe it's that by Neo becoming a Smith, the equation that is referenced to by the archtect in reloaded becomes balanced, thus resetting the matrix and killing Neo. I do agree with what you said about the oracle and Neo working together to destroy Smith. In reloaded when they are sitting on the bench the oracle says that the only way to win is together and that is what they do in a sence in revolutions.

As for the person asking earlier why the Oracle, and the little girl survived after being taken over by Smith is because they aren't "real" people, they are only programs. Therefore, even though Smith took them over, they can't truly die.

The only questions I really have left about Revoulutions is who the Merovingian, Persephonie and Seraph are. I believe they are the three most important yet mysterious characters in the movie. I can't come up with any convincing argument of who they could be. I thought that perhaps Persephonie may have been the 'mother of the matrix' as referenced by the archtect but there's not nearly enough evidence to support that. The reason behind that thinking is that the 'mother' had studied humans and was used to make it more believable and cause the rejection rate of the matrix to fall. She has a preoccupation with love which is evident throughout both films and one could argue that love is what made the matrix more believable. Also, the archtect based everything on equations and love is something unpredictable and was not/could not truly be understood by the architect. But as I said earlier, there are many faults in this idea which leaves me to believe it is false.

The other question I have is what happened to the rest of the people that were connected to the matrix? Smith had taken over/over written all their minds, so in a sense they were all killed. This would fit in with what the Architect said in reloaded about what would happen if Neo chose the door he did (he said that everyone connected to the matrix would die as well as the people of zion for those of you who may not remember). The other validation of this would be that the archtect did not think that Neo would go to the machine city to create peace with the machines and stop the destruction of zion. You can tell he did not expect it to work because at the end of the revolutions he says to the oracle that she had played a very dangerous game, ie: almost causing the destruction of zion AND the matrix.

This is just my take on it and I'm sorry about making it so long. feel free to point out any problems with what I have come up with

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: johneetrash

Originally posted by: Axon

Too many characters - Many of the primary characters lost out on time to focus on Zion fighters. That's fine, but seeing Morpheus reduced to a shell of his former self as he whines to Niobe while she pilots the Hammer was really, really annoying.

i think morpheus became a wuss because all of his beliefs and everything he lived for went down the drain when he found out the prophecy was a lie. he probably just never recovered from that

the profecy did come true tho. Neo stopped the war and made peace, he also succeded in freeing all thoes that will want to be freed

 

[Luagsch]

@kozman31

(a copied post of mine from the other matrix-thread... that's why i hate multiple threads. everything has to be said twice...)

the people the agents took over survive it. they just lose orientation, cause they don't know where they are and how they got there. i guess the same happened with people smith took over. so humans are still alive.
(look at the matrix-comics on the official site for evidence on this)

 

[kozman31]

Originally posted by: Luagsch
@kozman31

(a copied post of mine from the other matrix-thread... that's why i hate multiple threads. everything has to be said twice...)

the people the agents took over survive it. they just lose orientation, cause they don't know where they are and how they got there. i guess the same happened with people smith took over. so humans are still alive.
(look at the matrix-comics on the official site for evidence on this)

Gotcha. The reason I thought that they were dead was because at the end of Revolutions when the Oracle and them are on the bench, you don't see any other people or any sign of life anywhere else. I thought that perhaps they died because it seemed that Smith more or less overwrote their minds, like what happened to the guy in the real world (Bink?). I'll have to check the comics out though, might help.