Speed kills . . . and sells

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: BDawg

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: BDawg

Originally posted by: Corn

Accident avoidance is a myth perpetuated by the lucky.

I've personally avoided one accident. I sped up and swerved in my SVT Contour when I saw someone running a red light. The guy missed me by about 10 feet.

The accident that finished my Contour was a little different. I attempted to avoid the spining, out of control SUV, but with the ice on the road, my car didn't make it to the next lane.

Glad you survived. Did you go out and buy an SUV too?

Nope, I bought a SAAB.

Good for you. You could have gotten a monster for $60,000 and claim $40,000 on your taxes and caved to Marketing garbage (Oh, have to love those Hemi Commercials, sweet :roll So many sheep in America and not enough grass for all of them to eat.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: BDawg

Originally posted by: Jmman
18 wheelers kill more people than SUVs, lets get rid of them. Maybe trains too. Just too dangerous. While we are at it, let's get rid of bathtubs also. 1000's of people die every year by slipping in those death traps.........

Do you have stats to back this up?

Assuming it's true, 18 wheelers are filling their designed purpose. They're a necessary evil. Sure they pollute and are massive, but society wouldn't function the same without them. Their drivers are also higher skilled, trained, and tested than the average driver.

Easy now Dawg, he was obviously being sarcastic however 18 Wheeler drivers USED to be the best on the road, now they are just as bad as the car drivers. A large Majority of them are not tested and skilled as once were. $3,000 buys you a License and away they go regardless of how good or BAD of a driver they are.

Particularly with Gasoline Tanker trucks, there has been a huge surge in accidents involving Tanker rigs especially here in the Atlanta area.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Nope, I bought a SAAB.

Torque-steering, turbocharged, FWD monsters . . . nice choice . . . I'm partial to the Viggen cabriolet.

 

[rjain]

"necessary evil" my arse.

One 18 wheeler is far more efficient than a caravan of 100 Honda Civics. Interestingly enough, it's also safer because you don't have 100 drivers trying to keep in one group and clogging up the road.

Dave, you're whining about how poor you are and then go and buy a Saab? Wow. I sure can't afford one of those (especially after adding $300/month for parking), although I do drool a bit when I see them parked on the street.

 

[BDawg]

Originally posted by: rjain
"necessary evil" my arse.

One 18 wheeler is far more efficient than a caravan of 100 Honda Civics. Interestingly enough, it's also safer because you don't have 100 drivers trying to keep in one group and clogging up the road.

Dave, you're whining about how poor you are and then go and buy a Saab? Wow. I sure can't afford one of those (especially after adding $300/month for parking), although I do drool a bit when I see them parked on the street.

I bought the SAAB, not Dave.

 

[rjain]

Doh. This quoting always confuses me. Of course, if I were paying close attention, I would see that Dave responded to that comment.

My comments about Saabs still stand, nevertheless.

 

[Jmman]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: BDawg

Originally posted by: Jmman
18 wheelers kill more people than SUVs, lets get rid of them. Maybe trains too. Just too dangerous. While we are at it, let's get rid of bathtubs also. 1000's of people die every year by slipping in those death traps.........

Do you have stats to back this up?

Assuming it's true, 18 wheelers are filling their designed purpose. They're a necessary evil. Sure they pollute and are massive, but society wouldn't function the same without them. Their drivers are also higher skilled, trained, and tested than the average driver.

Easy now Dawg, he was obviously being sarcastic however 18 Wheeler drivers USED to be the best on the road, now they are just as bad as the car drivers. A large Majority of them are not tested and skilled as once were. $3,000 buys you a License and away they go regardless of how good or BAD of a driver they are.

Everyday, more than 555,000 18-wheelers travel our highways bringing goods from all over the world. They also bring something else?death and injury. More than 5,000 deaths and 125,000 injuries in the U.S. are caused annually by collisions with these trucks.



Statistics on household injuries have consistently
shown that the bathroom is one of the
most hazardous areas in the home. Many of the
accidents occurring here are linked to bathtubs
and shower stalls. According to U.S. Consumer
Product Safety Commission estimates,
these two structures are involved in nearly
68,000 injuries every year that are serious
enough to be treated in a hospital emergency
room.

I personally think we should outlaw Corn Nuts as well. You could get that thing lodged in your esophagus and choke to death..... Call your congressman now to get corn nuts outlawed.......

 

[Corn]

I personally think we should outlaw Corn Nuts as well.

My nuts are tasty and delicious.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Corn

I personally think we should outlaw Corn Nuts as well.

My nuts are tasty and delicious.

How would you know? :Q:disgust: Don't answer that!

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: rjain
Doh. This quoting always confuses me. Of course, if I were paying close attention, I would see that Dave responded to that comment.

My comments about Saabs still stand, nevertheless.

I wish I could afford a Saab. Next Vehicle purchase will certainly be a Foriegn car. Have 2 POS Dodges now that Dodge does not stand by. Vehicles that could not even make 40,000 miles without needing major Engine and Tranny Re-work. :|

 

[rjain]

DAVE! I can't believe you! Supporting foreign labor? How evil!

 

[Corn]

Have 2 POS Dodges now that Dodge does not stand by. Vehicles that could not even make 40,000 miles without needing major Engine and Tranny Re-work.

I thought all Dodge vehicles came with 7/70,000 powertrain warranties. Aside from you running them dry of oil, what reason do they give for not fixing them?

 

[Bowfinger]

With all due respect, I think your bias is showing. You also continue to ignore the statistics that support my initial point, "all things being equal, as speed limits increase, so will fatality rates. However, the IIHS has consistently exaggerated the relationship." This would seem to be important information since the basis for this thread is a misleading IIHS press release.

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

I do agree that powerful cars can be more dangerous in unskilled hands. They can also save lives, especially since the automakers usually couple more horsepower with better handling packages. In my opinion, it's the other extreme that is really dangerous, the little econoboxes that can't get out of their own way, obstruct traffic, and crumble like tin foil if they hit a hard bump. Cars like that should be restricted to local commuting only; keep them off the freeways and interstates.

My first car was a 320i. It handled like a dream . . . when it wasn't in the shop. But the notion that powerful cars may save lives has negligible merit compared to better designed cars (collision safety equipment and handling WITHOUT increased whp).

That is a statement of opinion. It is also largely a red herring. There is little correlation between horsepower and speeding. Most modern cars can reach speeds of more than 100 mph. Cars with more horsepower can just get there faster.

More to the point, most modern cars, even economy models, can exceed highway speed limits by 10 to 20 miles per hour. This is the level of "speeding" relevant to fatality statistics. The number of people travelling in excess of 100 mph is small enough to have no statistical significance in this context.

Finally, I already said powerful cars can be safer because "automakers usually couple more horsepower with better handling packages." While it might be wonderful for automakers to use your idea and put performance handling packages on all cars, the simple fact is that they don't. For most marques, if you want the best handling and braking, you need to buy the whole high-performance package.

My first new car was an Acura Integra GSR. It can be driven like an econobox (low emissions/good gas mileage) yet the 8000rpm redline is for more than show. The majority of pony cars from American automakers were good for nothing but going real fast in a straight line. Those vehicles are not safe.

Absolutely, I agree 100%.

Fortunately, domestic automakers are producing safer small cars . . . prodded of course by the government AND the excellent small import vehicles. You expose your bias in your statements. Anybody that knows $0.015 about autos knows there are plenty of small, highly maneuverable AND safe vehicles available.

I agree most modern economy cars are at least adequate. The most dangerous were some of the older econoboxes like the Chevy Chevette, Chrylser K Cars, and the Renault Le Car. Worthless garbage.

In typical (law abiding traffic), the people that cannot get out of the way are Ford Excursion drivers trying to find somewhere to park their barge at the mall.

Quite true, but irrelevant to the topic at hand.

No one should minimize the responsibility people have to drive their vehicles appropriately but in much the same manner that we've admonished liquor and cigarette manufacturers for glorifying dangerous behavior . . .

I agree the automakers are on a high-performance kick right now. I agree that powerful cars can be more dangerous in unskilled hands. I disagree that higher speed limits significantly increase fatalities and I offered statistics that support my beliefs. You have ignored these statistics, relying instead on your gut feeling that speeding must be really dangerous.

[. . . car links clipped . . .] Do I want to deny HEMI-power to Americans . . . of course not. Would I like to see draconian penalties for anyone that violates the posted speed limit by more than 10mph . . . absolutely! Considering I would be in line for one of those penalties it would certainly change my rate of travel. Despite a spotless driving record my behavior must be regulated b/c it's the only way to regulate the behavior of the idiots as well. As a generalization, speed thrills and kills . . . it sells due to the former and sux due to the latter. In any case, irresponsible speed must be regulated by hook (law) or crook (IIHS).

It already is, both by hook and by crook. So what's the problem?


By the way, if you really want to improve highway safety, lobby for a law preventing use of cell phones while driving. It seems almost every time I see someone driving carelessly, the driver has a cell phone pressed to his or her ear.

The other thing I would do is start enforcing the "slower traffic keep right" law. It seems like people have completely lost the concept of lane discipline. They plant their slow butts in the left lane, usually more or less alongside another slowpoke, and create a rolling road hazard that snarls traffic and endangers all the drivers behind them. Every once in a while, someone may manage to break through, usually by dangerously tailgating and/or cutting off one of the drivers involved. It's rude, it's dangerous, and it is against the law in many (most?) states.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: rjain
DAVE! I can't believe you! Supporting foreign labor? How evil!

Unfortunately have to when the American Company does not stand by their Product.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Corn

Have 2 POS Dodges now that Dodge does not stand by. Vehicles that could not even make 40,000 miles without needing major Engine and Tranny Re-work.

I thought all Dodge vehicles came with 7/70,000 powertrain warranties. Aside from you running them dry of oil, what reason do they give for not fixing them?

They came out with the 7/70 after our Vehicles. A 1998 Caravan and a 2000 Neon.

The Caravan has not been too bad except that the electronics crapped out, lost Cruise control, horn, blinkers. I am living without the cruise control and hard wired a horn and two new blinker switches. So basically bypassing faulty steering wheel wiring. I'm sure the air bag wouldn't work in the event that it would be needed either. When it hit 88,888 miles the Computer flipped out. Engine started puttering and had to pull over. Only way to get the thing running again was to disconnect the battery for a little while and then the engine started to run right again.


The Neon has been the Engine and Tranny disaster.
At just a couple of months old it fouled a plug and Donna got stuck on the Interstate. The Dealer charged $75 for changing out the one spark plug. They said the spark plug was not covered as it is a normal consumable.

Then at 36,400 miles, 400 miles out of Warranty the Transmission died on her while on the Interstate at 70 mph went into nuetral. They wanted $2,000 for a new Transmission. After much bickering they prorated it like a Battery or Tires and charged $200.

Then a couple of months later the Constant Velocity Joint went, $400.

Then at 38,000 it fouled the plugs again.

Then at 60,000 it blew the plugs right out of the head while cruising down the Interstate.

They charged $2,000 for a new head and upper engine re-build.

I contested that there had to be a defect with that head from the get go with all of the fouling but they would not budge.

She is now at 90,000 miles and the plugs have not fouled with the new head which proves my point that there was a defect with the original head, probably unstamped holes in it or something causing excess pressure build up to blow the plugs right out their threads.

Now the Constant Velocity Joint needs replacing again.

These are unheard of things with Foreign cars.

 

[BDawg]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: rjain
DAVE! I can't believe you! Supporting foreign labor? How evil!

Unfortunately have to when the American Company does not stand by their Product.

Name an American sports sedan with decent HP, torque, and has a manual transmission. The last one I knew of was my SVT Contour.

At least the profits from my SAAB go to GM and not Honda, Toyota, or another foreign company.

 

[Corn]

Why does this website as well as this other websitelist the 2000 Neon has a 5/60,000 basic warranty and you state your car was out of warranty after 36,000 miles?

 

[Corn]

Name an American sports sedan with decent HP, torque, and has a manual transmission.

Cadillac CTS
Lincoln LS
Ford Focus SVT
Dodge Neon SRT-4


The list widens when adding coupes and hatches............

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: BDawg
At least the profits from my SAAB go to GM and not Honda, Toyota, or another foreign company.

I guess, but most Hondas and Toyotas (especially the big sellers like Accord/Camry) are made domestically in U.S.-based plants, by U.S. workers, with mostly U.S.-made parts. The line between foreign and domestic is pretty blurred these days...

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Apparently some people have misunderstood the thread title . . . Speed kills . . . and sells

Interesting info from Israel

To assess the impact on mortality and injury resulting from the raising of the speed limit from 90 to 100 kph on two short stretches of fast interurban highways in Israel . . . Rises in death tolls and case fatality rates were seen in all parts of the country, one vehicle crashes, roads targeted for police enforcement, truck crashes and soldiers in military vehicles, (despite retention of the 90 kph limit by the IDF) . . . Raised speed limits on selected high speed roads had massive spillover effects on interurban roads nationwide resulting in large increases in fatal injury risks, which more than offset drops in crash frequency.

lies, damn lies, and statistics with regards to speed limit changes and rural highway fatalities
Someone endorsed broad research to ascertain the effect of speed limits (or speeding) on highway fatalities. Of course, such research invariably sux b/c there are a myriad of factors that affect highway fatality rates. Accordingly, you NEVER average across various domains . . . it's basically worthless research if you do not control for confounders (local laws, changes in safety regs, demographics, etc).
Local conditions can change dramatically in relatively short periods of time (and have dramatic effects on highway fatalities) . . . the physics never change (p;KE).

car vs car . . . car vs pedestrian

Newton's laws dictate that a doubling in vehicle speed results in a stopping distance four times as long and four times as much kinetic energy absorbed during an impact. Driver response times further increase stopping distances. As a result, a small increase in roadway traffic speeds results in a disproportionately large increase in pedestrian fatalities. This relatonship is illustrated in the references listed below.

(The authors of this study observed that, because of those who "don't believe in the influence of driving speed on impact speed" or who "just don't care at all", "it must be proven in every country that the laws of Isaac Newton are true".) [page 41]

Admittedly, Newtonian physics breaks down at the subatomic level but he still gets props on the highway.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Corn
Why does this website as well as this other websitelist the 2000 Neon has a 5/60,000 basic warranty and you state your car was out of warranty after 36,000 miles?

Interesting. We bought it December of 1999 and our paperwork all says 3/36,000 whchever comes first and with Donna driving 90 miles each direction to work quickly ate up the 36K.

I think they did come out with Commercials advertising the 5/60 in January and brought that up during the arguments over the Transmission dying at 36,400 and when the engine blew up at 60,000. Like I said Dodge would not stand by the Product and we appealed to Managment over the Dealers head. We were told by a Regional Director that the 3/36K sticks.

Then in like 2002 they went with 7/70 in Commercials, really pisses me off. All they had to do was match and I would consider another Dodge, really like the Caravan but they have blown it.

 

[BDawg]

Originally posted by: Corn

Name an American sports sedan with decent HP, torque, and has a manual transmission.

Cadillac CTS
Lincoln LS
Ford Focus SVT
Dodge Neon SRT-4


The list widens when adding coupes and hatches............

The CTS is the only one on that list that counts, and it's butt ugly.
The LS doesn't come with a manual in a V-8
The Focus and Neon are economy cars, not sports sedans.

 

[Corn]

The CTS is the only one on that list that counts, and it's butt ugly.

But the Contour was a thing of beauty? Looks are subjective, notice that Cadillac offers no incentives (even to employees) for this vehicle for a reason: They are selling every one they can manufacture. You'll pardon me if I don't agree with your opinion of it's looks.........

The LS doesn't come with a manual in a V-8

The V6 has 232hp and 220 lb-ft. torque. Both numbers are easily qualified as "decent" and surpass the specs of your Saab, which I'm sure you consider to be a sports sedan........

As far as the Neon and Focus are concerned: My Audi S4 is considered a "sports sedan", and since both the Neon and Focus have more interior space than my S4 and the requisite 4 doors, why should they also not be considered sports sedans? Because they cost less?

 

[BDawg]

Originally posted by: Corn

The CTS is the only one on that list that counts, and it's butt ugly.

But the Contour was a thing of beauty? Looks are subjective, notice that Cadillac offers no incentives (even to employees) for this vehicle for a reason: They are selling every one they can manufacture. You'll pardon me if I don't agree with your opinion of it's looks.........

You're welcome to your opinions. I liked the SVT Contour, but I really don't like the front of the CTS. I don't like PT Cruisers either, but Chrystler seems to sell enough of them.

The LS doesn't come with a manual in a V-8

The V6 has 232hp and 220 lb-ft. torque. Both numbers are easily qualified as "decent" and surpass the specs of your Saab, which I'm sure you consider to be a sports sedan........

I think it's qualifications are removed when there's a better version that has a bigger engine, but no manual.

As far as the Neon and Focus are concerned: My Audi S4 is considered a "sports sedan", and since both the Neon and Focus have more interior space than my S4 and the requisite 4 doors, why should they also not be considered sports sedans? Because they cost less?

Isn't the SVT Focus a hatchback? Maybe it's just me, but I don't consider either of those cars, or a WRX or Evo to be in the same class as a 5 series BMW or my SAAB. Maybe the 3 series BMWs and the 4 series Audis belong in the Focuses class and not sports sedans. Maybe it's just a gut reaction, but I don't think the SVT Focus or the Neon are sports sedans. My brother has a WRX; it's a fine car and fun to drive, but it's no sports sedan.

Personally, I won't buy one for the same reason I didn't buy a 330i...it's too small. Realistically, no compact car should be considered a sports sedan. My SVT Contour felt like it had more room than a 3 series BMW.

 

[Genesys]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
CNN

WASHINGTON -- More deaths are occurring on the nation's highways because car manufacturers are putting more horsepower under the hood of cars and drivers are using the muscle to go faster than ever, according to a new study by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety.

Doesn't everybody NEED a Hemi-powered Ram, F-150 Lightning, or a Silverado SS? I have feeling the Nissan Titan is a powerful battering ram as well.

why are you using trucks for your argument? granted those 3 can be made to go rather fast and all, but shouldnt you be more concerned with the way those stupid ricers drive? they have small compact lightweight cars that werent orginally designed to go fast and make them speed machines. Then they take them out on the highway and race them in and out of traffic! [at least thats how it is in Texas] ive seen so many accidents up and down Interstate 30 with little ricer cars involved that its not even funny anymore. Its those idiots that get caught in more accidents around here then the guys that drive the Lightning [its not that fast anyway, and its only like 4000 pounds, which isnt much heavier than a Honda Civic] and the HEMI Ram, and the Silverado SS