Speculation: Ryzen 4000 series/Zen 3

[randomhero]

I certainly don't understand, because I'm not a semiconductor engineer. Maybe you are.

But I absolutely believe improving CPUs is very difficult and costly. This is exactly what I'm talking about.

Ryzen 3000-series were revolutionary because of the new fab node - making double the core count possible overnight. That's a big change worth investing in.

Zen3 isn't bringing anything like that. It's just a bit faster.
Consumer looks at the performance vs price curve. And increase in core performance is great. But increasing core count is the second best thing.
AMD could keep selling Zen2 at lower prices. It could still give us +15% perf/$.

AMD is leading anyway. Intel is unlikely to catch up this year.
Imagine the massive savings possible if they skipped a generation and focused on future already (DDR5, PCIe5.0, new instructions etc).

I have to disagree.
They rearranged ccx. That is massive. Along that, they improved PPC single and multithread. It was also rumoured that they upgraded fpu, they widened pathways. I read that they may have included L3 predictor. We also don't know if they improved instruction ex latency. Some workloads may experience massive speed up.
And skipping gen? BIIIIG no no for enterprise markets.

 

[Shivansps]

Steam's hardware survey is a). unscientific b). useless for determining what is AMD's current product priority.

Maybe, still usefull to point out that desktop APU are more widely used than some people think.

AMD has forced desktop APUs to take a back seat to nearly every other part of their product lineup since 2017.

Im not so sure about that, we are about to see the most powerfull APUs ever produced, since when an AMD APU beaten the entire Intel CPU lineup?
And i dont think it is about priorities, they need those same APUs for the notebook market and no one can say that is not important, it has to be another reason for APUs lagging behind. AMD priority to me is server CPUs and console APUs anyway. Desktop has no priority, neither CPU or APUs.

Nobody said that here. What I'm saying is that AMD is not prioritizing desktop APUs right now. They may never again. Such products are mostly a low-margin afterthought. There isn't much that can be inferred by stock levels of 3400G CPUs. You may as well be reading tea leaves.

Someone did, not you.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Maybe, still usefull to point out that desktop APU are more widely used than some people think.

Not if it still represents a small portion of sales or revenue share for the vendor in any given quarter.

they need those same APUs for the notebook market and no one can say that is not important

They do not need AM4 Renoir for the notebook market. They have the notebook market covered from top to bottom.

 

[Veradun]

And skipping gen? BIIIIG no no for enterprise markets.

Not only enterprise. Remember how Intel rebranded everything for I can't even remember how many gen just to have fresh names on the shelves, and how many ppl "upgraded" to the flavour of the month gaining about zero performance gain in the process?

 

[Shivansps]

They do not need AM4 Renoir for the notebook market. They have the notebook market covered from top to bottom.

Is the exact same APU regardless, they share the same development process.

 

[Topweasel]

Is the exact same APU regardless, they share the same development process.

Yeah but you understand that A.) The priority will always notebook. B.) That desktop Renoir sale earns less per sale. C.) It's entirely possible that right now every sale of the desktop Renoir means one less Laptop Renoir chip.

The last is the most important. AMD isn't going to jeopardize mobile chip availability right now for another desktop sku. Hell it's entirely possible the 3100 and 3300 chips are getting released now to fill the lower end demands right now till they feel comfortable offering the desktop chip.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Is the exact same APU regardless, they share the same development process.

Exactly. That is what I mean. It would not surprise me at all if they have decided to neglect desktop APUs in this generation due to increased demand from OEMs. It is the same die. Demand for (and sales of) their desktop APUs have been tepid since they released Raven Ridge. The sales are probably good by Kaveri/Godavari standards, but today . . . ? No. And that is probably why we haven't seen a 4400G or . . . whatever they might call AM4 Renoir.

 

[Shivansps]

Yeah but you understand that A.) The priority will always notebook. B.) That desktop Renoir sale earns less per sale. C.) It's entirely possible that right now every sale of the desktop Renoir means one less Laptop Renoir chip.

The last is the most important. AMD isn't going to jeopardize mobile chip availability right now for another desktop sku. Hell it's entirely possible the 3100 and 3300 chips are getting released now to fill the lower end demands right now till they feel comfortable offering the desktop chip.

Exactly. That is what I mean. It would not surprise me at all if they have decided to neglect desktop APUs in this generation due to increased demand from OEMs. It is the same die. Demand for (and sales of) their desktop APUs have been tepid since they released Raven Ridge. The sales are probably good by Kaveri/Godavari standards, but today . . . ? No. And that is probably why we haven't seen a 4400G or . . . whatever they might call AM4 Renoir.

Guys, DESKTOP has no priority, not only the APUs, i belive the only reason we get new CPUs faster than APUs is due a side effect of server development.
BTW, we went way offcourse, ill remember you all that this was about AMD neglecting the GPU on the next APUs after Renoir (meaning, keep using Vega).

As for Desktop Renoir there are a few points to take in consideration:
1) AMD is unchallenged in APUs on Desktop, thus no incentive to anything.
2) AMD was in a really BAD position in notebooks, so what they are doing now makes sence, but that dosent means they will start neglecting the APU GPU in the future. If there is a place were they need good integrated GPUs is in notebooks.
3) The current situacion may have caused AMD to delay Desktop Renoir.

BTW, The 3100 and the APUs are diferent markets, they cant really cover the lack of APUs with these, but it may be a late reaction to the 9100F as a entry level gaming cpu that it may got delayed due to the virus as well. But it may be, after all the 1200 and 1400 were only intended to cover the holes until Raven. Still makes no sence to me because they could just produce more Picassos if that was the case.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Guys, DESKTOP has no priority, not the APUs,

Sorry, but I think you are 100% wrong. AMD's development priorities are:

1). Server (Naples/Rome/Milan)
2). Workstation/desktop (Summit Ridge, Pinnacle Ridge, Matisse, Vermeer)
3). Mobile APU (Raven Ridge, Picasso, Renoir, Cezanne)
4). Desktop APU (see #3)

Desktop APU is at the bottom of the heap.

 

[mopardude87]

So whats the deal with the 4000 series currently? Been a while since i nosed up in here but was curious if anyone can give me a crash course on where the 4000 series may stand compared to 3000 series. Last i heard it was like a 15% IPC increase and top of that faster clocks?Its still confirmed drop in compatible for the 570 chipset right? I vowed i prob wouldn't need nothing till 5000 series but this might be to good to do i just got a feeling. Amd been like Wonka with wonderful things LOL.

This video sorta reminds me how the 4000 series in a nutshell will be competing with itself on the same exact socket as 2000/3000 series if its confirmed drop in like damn. Might wanna take notes Intel, i loved ya for years but seriously how can AMD put 3 dang series in here and you berely muster 2 with a Z370?

I forgot the original 300 series will work with the 3000 series stuff too right? Not exactly seeing many 300 chipset owners on the 3000 series but i assume a few of those boards can run 3000 series chips maybe something like a 3900x? If they can support 4000 series too then wow.

 

[Shivansps]

Sorry, but I think you are 100% wrong. AMD's development priorities are:

1). Server (Naples/Rome/Milan)
2). Workstation/desktop (Summit Ridge, Pinnacle Ridge, Matisse, Vermeer)
3). Mobile APU (Raven Ridge, Picasso, Renoir, Cezanne)
4). Desktop APU (see #3)

Desktop APU is at the bottom of the heap.

#4 Does not EXIST, AMD has never developed an desktop only APU, not even Llano. AMD Develops one mobile-first APU, then they release it with diferent packages and then they sell the APU to OEM first, retail distribution usually comes a little later... as far as i know it has been always like this, nothing has changed. And im not understanding why "Desktop APU priority" has anything to do with neglecting the GPU part on the APUs (keep using Vega instead of going RDNA2).

#2 Is comes directly from #1 as they share most of the development, at least for now, is not like they have a choice as #2 gets what has been developed for #1. What else you could do with all those chiplets?
But is not the same as #3 and #4 because #1 and #2 are actually diferent products.

 

[amrnuke]

For a NUC / mini desktop unit for businesses, AMD APUs are stellar. You don't need a powerful GPU for most work, but a 4C/4T Intel chip still doesn't cut it when you have several apps open at once. We have HP EliteDesk Minis (705 IIRC) which has the 2400GE, 8GB RAM, SSD, and is incredibly quick compared to many of the Intel systems we have. It was only $399 as well. I believe there is a decent market for these especially in healthcare, but the burden again remains inertia. Most hospitals/groups have Dell or HP or Lenovo contracts and we all know the issues there. AMD have the parts to compete in APU (mobile and desktop) very well, it's just a matter of pricing and contracts. If that's not their focus then so be it, but I don't think it's prudent for them to let it play second fiddle, otherwise they'll miss out on a lot.

 

[jpiniero]

If that's not their focus then so be it, but I don't think it's prudent for them to let it play second fiddle, otherwise they'll miss out on a lot.

That's kind of the problem... the bulk of the OEM customer base is apathetic and will just buy Intel anyway. It's different on mobile because you would want the IGP to be able to conserve power and the market is much larger.

OEMs btw do seem to be willing to use U parts in desktops/AIOs. They could very easily use Renior Mobile as is. Don't need AM4.

 

[DrMrLordX]

#4 Does not EXIST

The 3400G is a desktop APU. It shares a die with mobile Picasso, but since it is packaged for AM4, it is a desktop APU for desktop form factors.

If that's not their focus then so be it, but I don't think it's prudent for them to let it play second fiddle, otherwise they'll miss out on a lot.

Two things:

They're making sacrifices. Even with their newfound success, they have limits.
They got burned badly focusing on APUs in desktop form factors in the recent past. It'll be awhile before those wounds heal.

 

[Shivansps]

The 3400G is a desktop APU. It shares a die with mobile Picasso, but since it is packaged for AM4, it is a desktop APU for desktop form factors.

Yeah exactly it the exact same die developed for mobile but with a diferent package, they dont develop APUs for desktop.
Is not the same as for example, Matisse, it shares most of the development but is not the same server CPU packaged for AM4.

APUs had been always like this, and if im not mistaken, OEMs always got the new APUs first, it looks like everything still the same to me. Maybe they just understimated the Picasso demand in desktop.

 

[Topweasel]

Yeah exactly it the exact same die developed for mobile but with a diferent package, they dont develop APUs for desktop.
Is not the same as for example, Matisse, it shares most of the development but is not the same server CPU packaged for AM4.

APUs had been always like this, and if im not mistaken, OEMs always got the new APUs first, it looks like everything still the same to me. Maybe they just understimated the Picasso demand in desktop.

But that's the point isn't it. You can especially see it with Renoir. Die prioritized for mobile (I'd say RR and Picasso as well, but you can really see the compromises that lean it heavily towards mobile). The Desktop offering will always be at the cost of the mobile market. As for the OEM's. I don't think it makes as much of a difference, maybe with AIO's, but OEM's just care for having a full product stack for their desktop offerings. A renewed current gen 3100 and 3300 give them offerings near the bottom of the cost level and throwing on a Nvidia 7200 or whatever old AMD card doesn't mean much if the rest of the stack requires an addin card as well. People over value the value of the iGPU in low cost and business computers, neither care since they don't really see a price with alternatives. As it is Renoir is probably either the most expensive die or the second most expensive die depending on how much the IO in the EPYC/TR is costing them. Their goal has been with Zen to reenter and disrupt the High performance market and most importantly increase their margins and ASP. You don't do that by hurrying out a economy desktop chip, one that can be selling and probably would be selling as 50% more expensive as a laptop variation, using their most expensive dies.

 

[Topweasel]

So whats the deal with the 4000 series currently? Been a while since i nosed up in here but was curious if anyone can give me a crash course on where the 4000 series may stand compared to 3000 series. Last i heard it was like a 15% IPC increase and top of that faster clocks?Its still confirmed drop in compatible for the 570 chipset right? I vowed i prob wouldn't need nothing till 5000 series but this might be to good to do i just got a feeling. Amd been like Wonka with wonderful things LOL.

This video sorta reminds me how the 4000 series in a nutshell will be competing with itself on the same exact socket as 2000/3000 series if its confirmed drop in like damn. Might wanna take notes Intel, i loved ya for years but seriously how can AMD put 3 dang series in here and you berely muster 2 with a Z370?

I forgot the original 300 series will work with the 3000 series stuff too right? Not exactly seeing many 300 chipset owners on the 3000 series but i assume a few of those boards can run 3000 series chips maybe something like a 3900x? If they can support 4000 series too then wow.

So the 4k Non-APU series (or Zen 3 for short) is currently projected as 15% faster then Zen 2 and a new Architecture (compared to Zen 2 being a rework of Zen 1 with other IF magic). It should work in all current boards cept probably low end A320 and really crappy B350 boards. So 4 gens, 30-35% increase in IPC, 30ish % clock speed increase, 100% more cores, all in the same platform. Intel generally tries to align with some major shift, new mem, new process, they kind of threw that out of the window with Coffee Lake, to make it look like their 2 year cycle had a good reason. But realistically All of SB+ could probably have been done on 2 sockets if Intel cared about its customers upgradibility.

 

[soresu]

Hello everyone!

If CDNA is capable to render games why not, but I am not sure If It's worth It instead of just using RDNA2. With LPPDDR5 I think we will see an Increase in CU by 25-50% -> 10-12CU and considering It's a better architecture compared to Vega I expect a significant increase in performance.

One CU can't be so big. 40CU Navi 10 die size is 251mm2 and with your estimate only CU would account for 225mm2. It would leave 26mm2 for everything else and that's impossibly small area for ROPs, controller, ACE, Geomerty engine, L2 cache, Graphic command engine, display, multimedia engine, PCIe4 and so on. CU should be a lot smaller than your estimate.
I found this picture of RDNA dieshot.
Navi 10 dieshot
Original Dieshot

I estimated it based on the difference between Navi 10 and 14 - once you multiply 5.625mm2 x24 and add 25-26 you get the Navi 14 die size.

Obviously it isn't perfect but it's not so far out of the realms of possibility for 64 ALU's + their cache and whatever else is in a CU.

By all means do your own math and give us your figure though.

To get graphics rendering in CDNA you would have to implement it entirely in software, sort of like LLVMpipe for OpenCL or HIP - far from ideal considering it is simply not optimised for that role - it is meant for HPC and ML use cases.

 

[coercitiv]

So the 4k Non-APU series (or Zen 3 for short) is currently projected as 15% faster then Zen 2 and a new Architecture (compared to Zen 2 being a rework of Zen 1 with other IF magic).

On top of that we should also get higher than average performance jump in gaming, since games scale better with improved cache size and/or topology.



While cache size may or may not be accurate, the "unified" aspect gives us reason to believe that cache and/or latency sensitive tasks will get the premium treatment. It may very well be the perfect ending for the AM4 platform.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

I estimated it based on the difference between Navi 10 and 14 - once you multiply 5.625mm2 x24 and add 25-26 you get the Navi 14 die size.

Obviously it isn't perfect but it's not so far out of the realms of possibility for 64 ALU's + their cache and whatever else is in a CU.

By all means do your own math and give us your figure though.

Please look at these calculations:
https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...itectures-thread.2579999/page-2#post-40149240
and this
Navi 10 dieshot
2xCU is ~4.1mm2.
Calculations were done by DisEnchantment

 

[mopardude87]

So the 4k Non-APU series (or Zen 3 for short) is currently projected as 15% faster then Zen 2 and a new Architecture (compared to Zen 2 being a rework of Zen 1 with other IF magic). It should work in all current boards cept probably low end A320 and really crappy B350 boards. So 4 gens, 30-35% increase in IPC, 30ish % clock speed increase, 100% more cores, all in the same platform.

Yeah i think AMD has been simply amazing, i had no issues at all forking over the asking price on a 3900x. 4 generations on a good motherboard is absolutely insane and well worth commending them for.

Here is to hoping whatever comes in the 5000 series will bring us perhaps 3 more generations on that. Yeah i am done with Intel unless they deliver some insane competition in the future cause yeah the socket hopping certainly does get on my nerves. That and like you mentioned, their greed i strongly feel is their downfall cause yes since skylake we could have easily had all these perhaps on the same motherboard.Everyone always pokes at how its 14+++++ so sure how could it not have been done on the same socket? Amd sure as heck did magik with 4 generations. They got Jafar or some other sorcerer hard at work making sure your B350 from 2017 works with a 2020 processor. I find it mind boggling their devotion to backwards compatibility . I marvel it at this point.

I will continue to support AMD if they keep on bringing products out in this fashion, i feel they are a brand for people and i respect that. They been doing it a while but this time got a viable product so its not longer the budget brand.! Budget prices sure but talk about awesome performance for that buck.

 

[Markfw]

Yeah i think AMD has been simply amazing, i had no issues at all forking over the asking price on a 3900x. 4 generations on a good motherboard is absolutely insane and well worth commending them for.

Here is to hoping whatever comes in the 5000 series will bring us perhaps 3 more generations on that. Yeah i am done with Intel unless they deliver some insane competition in the future cause yeah the socket hopping certainly does get on my nerves. That and like you mentioned, their greed i strongly feel is their downfall cause yes since skylake we could have easily had all these perhaps on the same motherboard.Everyone always pokes at how its 14+++++ so sure how could it not have been done on the same socket? Amd sure as heck did magik with 4 generations. They got Jafar or some other sorcerer hard at work making sure your B350 from 2017 works with a 2020 processor. I find it mind boggling their devotion to backwards compatibility . I marvel it at this point.

I will continue to support AMD if they keep on bringing products out in this fashion, i feel they are a brand for people and i respect that. They been doing it a while but this time got a viable product so its not longer the budget brand.! Budget prices sure but talk about awesome performance for that buck.

I think its smart for various reasons. Think of the OEM builders. They have a basic motherboard, and just tweak the bios for years. Saves them a bundle. On motherboards, heatsinks, and allows them up upgrade quickly. This might be what makes AMD more money, the savings the OEM's like. Yes, I totally agree for DIY, but I just wanted to point out the other major advantage.

 

[DrMrLordX]

@Topweasel

Also, OEMs are not afraid to use laptop hardware in a desktop form factor if the price and performance are right. They don't need socket AM4 unless it offers some product advantage, like better cooling; lower prices; or better SKUs for their customer. Lots of desktop AiO solutions have mobile hardware in them. Well some of them do.

If AMD is able to sell all their Renoir dice in mobile form factor at attractive margins, they aren't going to want to repackage as many of them as 4000-series desktop APUs.

 

[Shivansps]

But that's the point isn't it. You can especially see it with Renoir. Die prioritized for mobile (I'd say RR and Picasso as well, but you can really see the compromises that lean it heavily towards mobile). The Desktop offering will always be at the cost of the mobile market. As for the OEM's. I don't think it makes as much of a difference, maybe with AIO's, but OEM's just care for having a full product stack for their desktop offerings. A renewed current gen 3100 and 3300 give them offerings near the bottom of the cost level and throwing on a Nvidia 7200 or whatever old AMD card doesn't mean much if the rest of the stack requires an addin card as well. People over value the value of the iGPU in low cost and business computers, neither care since they don't really see a price with alternatives. As it is Renoir is probably either the most expensive die or the second most expensive die depending on how much the IO in the EPYC/TR is costing them. Their goal has been with Zen to reenter and disrupt the High performance market and most importantly increase their margins and ASP. You don't do that by hurrying out a economy desktop chip, one that can be selling and probably would be selling as 50% more expensive as a laptop variation, using their most expensive dies.

The point was about AMD could potencially keep using Vega after Renoir because there is potencially no demand for more powerfull IGPs. This is the exact quote i was repling to.

Spoiler

AMD is definitely considering sticking with Vega for APUs. RDNA(2) has caused headaches for them. And the demand for powerful internal graphics is unclear.

I can tell you with certainty they do not have a decision right now. This could be a lategame call.

So far nothing on desktop or in mobile that these APU are developed for tells me there is no demand... in fact in mobile Renoir is starting to eat into Nvidia mobile gpus, if there is a demand for souch gpus there is a even higher demand for a IGP that performs just as well. And on desktop as i said, for the first time ever, Picasso stock is dying off way before its planned replacement. The fact is considering past history, Renoir is not late to desktop yet, it could launch on December and still being maybe 1-2 months late... It just that Picasso vanished way before it should.

And you are right APU are designed as mobile first, but this is nothing new, it has been like that since the first APU ever. I dont see any compromise on Renoir that havent in previous APUs, they are usually well balanced, i dont think anyone belives that Raven and PIcasso arent balanced and are in fact "too much GPU" AMD had no way of making an 8C APU along with a IGP before 7nm, it would have been too big. Same for all previous APUs.
And i dont think Renoir IGP CU/ROPs downgrade has anything to do with mobile first, i think it could have been some size optimisation, maybe adding 3 more CU was not possible whiout leaving too much empty space, or the good old "that enoght, no need for more" that seeing Renoir in mobile, is true.

 

[mopardude87]

I think its smart for various reasons. Think of the OEM builders. They have a basic motherboard, and just tweak the bios for years. Saves them a bundle. On motherboards, heatsinks, and allows them up upgrade quickly. This might be what makes AMD more money, the savings the OEM's like. Yes, I totally agree for DIY, but I just wanted to point out the other major advantage.

Yup i worked on a few systems with AMD and had my x2 555 BE back in 2010 and i liked how i could go from a budget Sempron right to the 1100t on a 2008 based budget mobo. I remember plopping a 1090t in to replace the x2 555 BE then after some consideration i hopped on a i5 2500k. The 2500k destroyed the 1090t but i thought it was quite nice that the AMD system could be upgraded so drastically and for so cheap!

SO glad we got this competition, was beyond happy to give AMD my money this time. I loved the performance of this 7700k and the 4670 and the 2500k before it but yeah its time for bigger and better things. Intel could learn a few things from AMD about this time, something tells me they will for Rocket Lake if anything. Even a better stock cooler will signify they saw SOMETHING at least.