Speculation: PC enthusiasts will migrate to HEDT

[GaiaHunter]

Enthusiast has nothing to do with the amount of money you spend on a computer.

Enthusiast is someone that build their own machines and knows what hardware/software is needed for any given purpose. They generally also know that PSUs, motherboards, coolers and other "non-fancy" components are very important and can OC to get a bit extra.

HEDT will have a bigger market share as it becomes cheaper and/or more uses.

 

[mattiasnyc]

Thanks for the replies and votes so far!

Looking at the poll results and comments, I think it is clear that HEDT is currently not living up to its name — it is not providing the high-end ultimate performance for all enthusiasts; gamers in particular.

How is "high-end ultimate performance" for "gamers in particular" the "name" of HEDT? Who says that? I can't recall a single product being targeted as both HEDT and for gamers in particular.

This all seems to be a slightly bizarre question of semantics/definition of the word "HEDT" more than anything else.

It is clear what AMD and Intel need to do. They need to make sure the HEDT platform is superior even for gamers. Of course, for some gamers, those that do parallel streaming or other multitasking, the HEDT platform is already attractive. But HEDT needs to become persuasive on gaming benchmarks as well.

Why?

If this happens, and HEDT becomes an undisputed high-performance platform for all, then I think we will see motherboard makers shift their resources to the HEDT space for their premium and gaming-focussed products. That makes more sense than spending that effort on a platform made for the mainstream.

I'd say "do the math", because I'm not at all sure that there's a net positive financial result for doing what you propose. I'd like to see the spreadsheets from AMD/Intel on this before I believe that it'd be 'better' for them to go this route.

Alternatively one could again simply point to the semantics of it all and simply ask where to draw the line between HEDT and lower tiers. How does one go about figuring out where to draw that line? I don't think it'll be all that clear.

 

[PeterScott]

How is "high-end ultimate performance" for "gamers in particular" the "name" of HEDT? Who says that? I can't recall a single product being targeted as both HEDT and for gamers in particular.
...
Alternatively one could again simply point to the semantics of it all and simply ask where to draw the line between HEDT and lower tiers. How does one go about figuring out where to draw that line? I don't think it'll be all that clear.

I really don't see the connection between HEDT and Gaming either. I think the OP was trying to think how to woo gamers to HEDT, because they seem to be the ones willing to be spend more. But I don't see that working.

Where to draw the HEDT line? I suggest it's on the socket.

To me HEDT uses a socket with more memory channels, to feed higher core counts. That is the basis for HEDT platforms.

I don't see many home users crossing that line over to HEDT platforms, and as mentioned even less going forward as core counts on mainstream socket increases.

HEDT platforms tend to be the domain of work (even if that is work from home on a small scale). No doubt there are a couple of exceptions around, but they are exceptions.

 

[Headfoot]

HEDT seems like another worthless 4 letter acronym that doesn't clarify anything. It just muddies the waters further. As far as I'm concerned, it's all about the benchmarks and feature sets, regardless of any arbitrary label

 

[whm1974]

HEDT seems like another worthless 4 letter acronym that doesn't clarify anything. It just muddies the waters further. As far as I'm concerned, it's all about the benchmarks and feature sets, regardless of any arbitrary label

Well to me HEDT means workstation class. Which have more then two memory channels, supports large amounts of memory, And high number of PCIe lanes and other I/O. And for me, buying such hardware would be a waste of money since I don't anything that will justify spending that much.

 

[Vattila]

HEDT seems like another worthless 4 letter acronym that doesn't clarify anything. It just muddies the waters further. As far as I'm concerned, it's all about the benchmarks and feature sets, regardless of any arbitrary label

Yeah. It would be more straight-forward if HEDT meant high-end performance for all, even gamers.

It may start to happen next year, if Zen 2 is good for gaming and the ThreadRipper 3000 series has a processor that does better than i9-9900K. Intel may then look at bringing a competitive gaming processor to their HEDT platform as well.

If we then have a situation where processors on the HEDT platforms do as well or better than the best gaming processors on the mainstream platform, maybe we'll see larger adoption of HEDT.

I also think it is cool to think about what Intel, AMD and Nvidia could do for gaming on a platform optimised for high performance, rather than the mainstream.

 

[mattiasnyc]

Yeah. It would be more straight-forward if HEDT meant high-end performance for all, even gamers.

Well, but if it really had that meaning then it would include all workloads. Once it includes all workloads which means all of the different types of demands on the system then you'll clearly see the problem with such a definition. Look:

Server - highest clockspeed is not priority
Gaming - higher clockspeed is better
Workstation (content creation) - more cores often better (i.e. between the above two)

In addition to the above you have different memory requirements both when it comes to bandwidth and latency and error correction.

Since we can't have high clockspeed AND high core counts you literally cannot have one CPU that caters to both, and thus there can't be this one CPU that is "high-end performance for all".

Right?

So to me then the definition is pretty reasonable.

I also don't really see the point of this discussion, because regardless of what the word means there will still be progress on all fronts anyway; speed, core count, memory speed etc.... And people buy whatever fits them regardless of the name...

 

[Vattila]

The divide between the mainstream desktop and HEDT comes down to the different sockets in AMD and Intel's respective product segments.

Let's dream — here is what I see as a simple and sensible segmentation in the future:

Mainstream socket:

• Pins for video output in the socket.
• CPUs with integrated GPU and memory (low-cost HBM/eDRAM).
• Low-cost PCI Express for optional discrete GPU attachment.
  
• Single-channel low-power next-gen memory interconnect (DDR-5).
• Bare essentials for connectivity (PCI-lanes, USB, etc.).
  
• Platform designed for low cost and low power.
• Targetting typical PC use and casual gaming.

HEDT socket:

• No pins for video out in the socket.
• CPUs without integrated GPU (but may have integrated accelerators).
• High-speed coherent interconnect for discrete GPU.
  
• Multi-channel high-performance memory interconnect with support for ECC.
• Lots of connectivity (PCI-lanes, USB, etc.).
  
• Platform optimised for performance with no compromise.
• Targetting gamers and high-performance users.

 

[whm1974]

The divide between the mainstream desktop and HEDT comes down to the different sockets in AMD and Intel's respective product segments.

Let's dream — here is what I see as a simple and sensible segmentation in the future:

Mainstream socket:

• Pins for video output in the socket.
• CPUs with integrated GPU and memory (low-cost HBM/eDRAM).
• Low-cost PCI Express for optional discrete GPU attachment.
  
• Single-channel low-power next-gen memory interconnect (DDR-5).
• Bare essentials for connectivity (PCI-lanes, USB, etc.).
  
• Platform designed for low cost and low power.
• Targetting typical PC use and casual gaming.

HEDT socket:

• No pins for video out in the socket.
• CPUs without integrated GPU (but may have integrated accelerators).
• High-speed coherent interconnect for discrete GPU.
  
• Multi-channel high-performance memory interconnect with support for ECC.
• Lots of connectivity (PCI-lanes, USB, etc.).
  
• Platform optimised for performance with no compromise.
• Targetting gamers and high-performance users.

I think your idea of mainstream is kind of stark, Remember that we have low end, mid-range, and high end mainstream and I doubt that this will change when DDR5 is out.

 

[Vattila]

I think your idea of mainstream is kind of stark, Remember that we have low end, mid-range, and high end mainstream and I doubt that this will change when DDR5 is out.

Yeah. I think you are right about that. My idealised scenario is how I would segment it, if we could start from scratch with the upcoming advances in technology. But, of course, we cannot, due to the legacy of the current market segmentation. And even if we could start over, only the socket design decisions would be fixed, and there would be innovation and competition by the motherboard vendors around the socket in any case.

 

[Vattila]

Gamer enthusiasts will want higher single-thread frequencies -- the higher, the better. They certainly don't need the igpu (which is a holdover from the laptop market), so if you deliver a cheaper, higher frequency HEDT ... then they might [migrate].

This is a point worth highlighting — the current best gaming processors have ~30% of the die deactivated in their primary use!

This is a sign that the mainstream platform and CPU products have been repurposed for gaming, not specially designed for it. Wouldn't gamers rather have that useless iGPU replaced by more cache and memory controllers, and a platform with a socket that has more memory bandwidth rather than unused pins for the deactivated iGPU?

For example, an i7-8700K redesigned for HEDT — with the iGPU removed, and cache and memory controllers added instead — should perform even better on gaming benchmarks.

 

[VirtualLarry]

For example, an i7-8700K redesigned for HEDT — with the iGPU removed, and cache and memory controllers added instead — should perform even better on gaming benchmarks.

Intel's not going to do that. Gamers are a niche market, and Intel certainly isn't going to spin up another design, with new mask sets, just for the "gaming market".

Intel's Core designs, are used in laptops primarily, and also in desktops, secondarily.

Intel's HEDT designs, are used in servers, primarily, and then also in HEDT desktops, secondarily.

All Intel's desktop chips, whether mainstream or HEDT socket, are leftovers. They don't even make any designs primarily for desktop, nevermind a niche of desktop, like Gamers, or HEDT Gamers.

So, keep dreaming, and ignore reality? (Ok, sorry, don't mean to be harsh, but just pointing out that this idea is pretty-much pie-in-the-sky, and Intel's not going to specifically design a chip for a niche (gamers) of a niche (desktops).)

 

[Vattila]

All Intel's desktop chips, whether mainstream or HEDT socket, are leftovers.

Yeah. Good point. They may have to change their thinking. There is clearly money to be made in the gaming market (ref. latest Nvidia products, i7-7700K and 8700K sales, upcoming 9900K, etc.).

It will be interesting to see what happens if Threadripper 3000 beats Intel in gaming. That may cause an incentive for gamers to move to HEDT. Wait, you say, why won't they just move to mainstream Ryzen 3000? Well, if Threadripper is just as good, perhaps even better, for gamers, there is the benefit of the HEDT platform, including more bandwidth and (optional) cores for multitasking and productivity. With advances in Precision Boost technology, more cores may not mean lower single-thread performance either.

 

[whm1974]

Yeah. Good point. They may have to change their thinking. There is clearly money to be made in the gaming market (ref. latest Nvidia products, i7-7700K and 8700K sales, upcoming 9900K, etc.).

It will be interesting to see what happens if Threadripper 3000 beats Intel in gaming. That may cause an incentive for gamers to move to HEDT. Wait, you say, why won't they just move to mainstream Ryzen 3000? Well, if Threadripper is just as good, perhaps even better, for gamers, there is the benefit of the HEDT platform, including more bandwidth and (optional) cores for multitasking and productivity. With advances in Precision Boost technology, more cores may not mean lower single-thread performance either.

Again there is the issue of cost for most gamers. Many of us can't simply afford to build HEDT systems or don't want to spend that kind of money.

 

[PotatoWithEarsOnSide]

It's either a case of waiting for DDR5 on mainstream, or moving up to HEDT.

 

[Vattila]

Again there is the issue of cost for most gamers. Many of us can't simply afford to build HEDT systems or don't want to spend that kind of money.

True. But that is true for CPUs and graphics cards, as well as the iGPU vs dGPU debate, and APUs for that matter. There will always be low-cost options. I am not saying that 100% of gamers will move to HEDT, but the kind of gamers that are enthusiastic about, and in the market for, the latest graphics cards and top gaming CPUs — i.e. the high-margin stuff where AMD, Intel and Nvidia make the most money — they might consider moving to a high-performance platform.

 

[jpiniero]

Intel's not going to do that. Gamers are a niche market, and Intel certainly isn't going to spin up another design, with new mask sets, just for the "gaming market".

That's where EMIB/Ferveros comes in. Time will tell how crazy Intel can go with it, but my thinking is that mainstream K won't have the GPU tile(s) and all HEDT will be is a mainstream K with multiple CPU tiles.

I expect AMD to do something similar to this btw.

 

[VirtualLarry]

That's where EMIB/Ferveros comes in. Time will tell how crazy Intel can go with it, but my thinking is that mainstream K won't have the GPU tile(s) and all HEDT will be is a mainstream K with multiple CPU tiles.

I expect AMD to do something similar to this btw.

That would definitely be interesting, and shake up the market.

 

[whm1974]

That would definitely be interesting, and shake up the market.

Perhaps it will. But a gamer such as myself wouldn't normally move to HEDT unless I'm making money on it.

 

[DrMrLordX]

If Intel is serious about EMIB, eventually they could use advanced process tech to put RAM in the same package as the CPU and call it a day.

Seriously, the whole DIMM packaging scheme is a major limitation on CPU performance, and RAM prices have been insane enough lately that a major cost component of new systems - even on the high end - has been RAM.

I see no reason why Intel post-7nm (supposing they ever get there, bleh) wouldn't just sell a bunch of 8c/16t CPUs with 8-16GB of HMC or HBMx in the package. Die sizes for those transistor counts should be really low once Intel hits that node. It'll be hard to sell moar cores beyond 8 for awhile aside from current workstation/HEDT buyers, but using the extra transistor count for on-package RAM could be a winner.

Anyone still wanting to use DIMMs could run the on-package RAM as l4 cache.

Regardless, selling such a chip to the consumer would do away with one of the major differentiating factors between consumer desktop and HEDT, and that is RAM channels. HEDT always costs extra for the quad channel availability. The only thing left for Intel to worry about after that would be things like PCIe channels.

 

[scannall]

No. The definintion of enthusiast has changed over the years. Once upon a time it meant pushing cheap parts to better than premium performance. Now it means getting .2 more FPS and seeing that extra blade of grass in ultra settings.

At one point enthusiasts had to actually build computers, not assemble a pile of parts as well. ;-)

 

[whm1974]

No. The definintion of enthusiast has changed over the years. Once upon a time it meant pushing cheap parts to better than premium performance. Now it means getting .2 more FPS and seeing that extra blade of grass in ultra settings.

At one point enthusiasts had to actually build computers, not assemble a pile of parts as well. ;-)

Well to me a true enthusiast is someone who builds and prefers to build their own computers. This also includes those who install their own OSes.

 

[gipper53]

Well to me a true enthusiast is someone who builds and prefers to build their own computers. This also includes those who install their own OSes.

Would have to agree with this. If your'e picking individual components out and assembling your own desktop, that's a very small percentage of computer buyers these days. Probably less than 1% of the population. So yes, I'd classify that level of consumer as an enthusiast rather than somebody who just 'needs a computer'. Budget is not a factor, it's the approach to the solution.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Well to me a true enthusiast is someone who builds and prefers to build their own computers. This also includes those who install their own OSes.

Interesting that you should say that. I basically agree... but maybe, I'm getting "old".

I was (gasp!), thinking of not building PCs, anymore. I haven't built one for a month or two (getting rusty?), and seeing how Newegg now has that brand-shiny-new Acer with the i5-8400+, 8GB DDR4, 1TB HDD, and 16GB Optane, for $429.99... I'd be hard-pressed to build something like that, for that price, including OS... and the piece that really interested me, was the fact that they have front-panel ports, that are USB 3.1 Gen 2. That's pretty-much "unicorn"-level stuff, in the DIY market. (I haven't seen ANY DIY cases, that have USB 3.1 Gen 2 ports on them. I know that there are a few mobos, scant few, that have USB 3.1 Gen 2 front-panel "headers" on them, so they must exist out there somewhere, but I just haven't seen them yet.)

Edit: Well, maybe I'm not hanging up my "enthusiast" card just yet... I do still like to OC, which I can do with Ryzen / AM4, pretty-much to my heart's content, well, up until Fmax or Vmax or TJmax. Intel's locked, all except their highest-end 'K' SKUs, which aren't usually found in a budget OEM PC, unless it's an Alienware.

 

[Atari2600]

No. The definintion of enthusiast has changed over the years. Once upon a time it meant pushing cheap parts to better than premium performance.

That was always my understanding as well.

The enthusiast was someone who understood the ins and outs extremely well and would get the most "bang-for-buck".

They generally would avoid the halo parts like the plague as their price/performance ratios are crap.

Now it means getting .2 more FPS and seeing that extra blade of grass in ultra settings.

At one point enthusiasts had to actually build computers, not assemble a pile of parts as well. ;-)

It seems now "enthusiast" starts and stops with a rainbow light show going on inside your box.