Speculation on Zen's chipset

[Elixer]

In AMD's FaD, there wasn't any mention about a new chipset with the Zen news, so, one has to wonder what is going on that front.

We know that the latest 990 series is basically the same as 790/890 with some slight improvements.

Right now, they don't have native PCIe 3.x support, no native USB 3.0 or 3.1 support, and no native M.2 support, which all would be required in 2016+.

Would be nice if they updated HyperTransport, (3.1 is faster than the speed of DDR4 at 26GB/s), and also add in trueaudio in their chipsets.
The advantage of adding in trueaudio seems like a no-brainer, there would be no need for OEMs to pay for Realtek's audio chips, and thus have a lower total cost solution.

Will they yet again recycle the 990 with some trivial modifications, and rely on 3rd parties for the newer tech as they have been doing now, or, will we finally see native support of the above mentioned tech?

 

[redzo]

What does "native" actually mean? Nothing. If the solution is slow and unreliable non-native, you'll get the same results when native.

Here is one example:
http://techreport.com/news/26485/report-amd-to-license-satae-tech-from-asmedia

It doesn't matter if it gets "integrated". You'll get the same results because it is the same crappy implementation/product.

Some related news:
http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20150303PD205.html?mod=0

 

[BigDaveX]

Having native implementations for USB 3.x and the like does matter when you have only a limited number of PCIe lanes to connect external controllers to.

That said, AMD's APU chipsets are pretty decent, they shouldn't have too much trouble whipping up an up-to-date chipset for Zen.

 

[ShintaiDK]

The question is, is it integrated as a SoC or is it the outsourced new chipsets from AsMedia.

You are not going to see Hypertransport for a chipset if the PCIe lanes are ondie.

 

[DrMrLordX]

They have no need to recycle the 990, the A88x is more-modern in terms of feature-set. They can expand off that.

There will have to be on-board FCH since I don't think they've moved that onto the die for Zen (have they?). Everything's going to be on AM4, too.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

It'll likely look a lot like the A88X. Perhaps with a PCIe 3.0 x4 interface to the CPU, PCIe 3.0 lanes from the FCH and USB3.1 support.

The real question is how many PCIe lanes come off the CPU. It'll be interesting if its 36 or above. (2x 16x for SLI/Crossfire + 4x for SSD)

 

[R0H1T]

It'll likely look a lot like the A88X. Perhaps with a PCIe 3.0 x4 interface to the CPU, PCIe 3.0 lanes from the FCH and USB3.1 support.

The real question is how many PCIe lanes come off the CPU. It'll be interesting if its 36 or above. (2x 16x for SLI/Crossfire + 4x for SSD)

Why the oddball number? Also I expect PCIe 4.0 for AM4+ if AMD isn't able to get it running on AM4. The final spec release has been delayed twice IIRC & it's possible that AMD will include it in their 2017 products

 

[ShintaiDK]

Why the oddball number? Also I expect PCIe 4.0 for AM4+ if AMD isn't able to get it running on AM4. The final spec release has been delayed twice IIRC & it's possible that AMD will include it in their 2017 products

A-Link Express and DMI have traditionally been way behind. And you would need the CPU to even have PCIe 4.0 to begin with. And thats not very likely either.

 

[R0H1T]

A-Link Express and DMI have traditionally been way behind. And you would need the CPU to even have PCIe 4.0 to begin with. And thats not very likely either.

I know, but one can hope for the best right

I want my next desktop upgrade to have DDR4, HSA, HBM (or HMC) & PCIe 4.0 of course. Till then it's smartphones, tablets, laptops in no particular order.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Why the oddball number? Also I expect PCIe 4.0 for AM4+ if AMD isn't able to get it running on AM4. The final spec release has been delayed twice IIRC & it's possible that AMD will include it in their 2017 products

The real question is how many PCIe lanes come off the CPU. It'll be interesting if its 36 or above. (2x 16x for SLI/Crossfire + 4x for SSD)

16+16+4=36.

I'd think that would fit most users, while not being excessive from a die area standpoint. Stuff with lower bandwidth requirement can always use the FCH provided lanes. But I wouldn't mind two or four extra lanes from the CPU for one or two USB3.1 controllers.

 

[monstercameron]

Isn't asmedia building future amd chipsets.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Remember USB 3.1 gen 1 is no faster than USB3.

 

[ShintaiDK]

16+16+4=36.

I dont think we see anything over 20 lanes from the CPU.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

I dont think we see anything over 20 lanes from the CPU.

We could see a segmentation were the APU line is limited to 20 lanes (like today), with the "big" Zen providing more. Should be doable.

This is pure speculation on my part. I just think it strange if AM4 provides less lanes then are currently available with the 990FX.

 

[Valantar]

This is interesting considering that they're planning Zen-based FX CPUs and A-series APUs in the same socket. Either this would require doubling up on some onboard features that are also available in the APUs (audio, for example), or including these on-die on FX chips as well. Personally, I'd definitely prefer the latter. Lower motherboard costs, and added flexibility when it comes to upgrades and platform longevity. Also, fewer discrete parts on the motherboard that might fail. This would be an excellent opportunity for AMD to sell relatively low-cost APU systems that, given user need, could be upgraded not just graphically, but also on the CPU side (given the addition of a dGPU). Can't see how that's not a win-win situation.

This would also be very nice to have on the (increasingly popular) SFF form factors like mITX. Having high quality audio integrated without taking up motherboard space would be very nice in this segment, and could make room for, for example, more m.2 SSDs, wireless cards and other useful and popular features.

And yeah, integration of m.2, NVME support and USB 3.1 (I would guess 3.1 front panel headers will be implemented by 2016? So this as well) would be essential. With AMDs iGPU strength, tight usb 3.1 (with DP alternate mode) integration would be hugely beneficial. Bundle a couple of USB-C to HDMI/DP/DVI adapters (passive, so cheap ones) with the motherboard, and FX users would have no reason to complain about unnecessary display outputs taking up IO space on the motherboard.

And given the expected growth of PCIe SSDs, more PCIe lanes are a must. Then again, AMD has typically been more "generous" with PCIe lanes on mainstream chips than Intel.

 

[Valantar]

We could see a segmentation were the APU line is limited to 20 lanes (like today), with the "big" Zen providing more. Should be doable.

This is pure speculation on my part. I just think it strange if AM4 provides less lanes then are currently available with the 990FX.

That sounds plausible - given that Intel does this on the 2011v3 platform, it shouldn't be much of an issue.

 

[DrMrLordX]

btw, I knew I had seen the name before, but the AM4 chipset (formerly FM3 chipset) does have the FCH on the board. The chip is called Promontory:

http://www.kitguru.net/components/c...r-direct-nvme-storage-promontory-pch-usb-3-1/

Yeah this ain't AM3+ rehashed.

 

[NTMBK]

Note the "commodity IP" part of this chart:

Pretty sure they're talking about all the junk left in the southbridge. Anything performance critical has moved into the CPU (memory controller, PCIe controller, integrated graphics, and now disk controller with NVMe). Everything left is "good enough" commodity/legacy stuff that hasn't improved in years on any platform. Makes sense to just buy it from Asmedia and hook it up to a few PCIe lanes, instead of spending money to reinvent the wheel.

 

[Elixer]

Pretty sure they're talking about all the junk left in the southbridge. Anything performance critical has moved into the CPU (memory controller, PCIe controller, integrated graphics, and now disk controller with NVMe). Everything left is "good enough" commodity/legacy stuff that hasn't improved in years on any platform. Makes sense to just buy it from Asmedia and hook it up to a few PCIe lanes, instead of spending money to reinvent the wheel.

I am not so sure about that, the problem with having 3rd party OEMs do the work for you is that, it adds to the complexity of the design of the motherboard, and you have to have yet another source of said chips, not to mention drivers. Motherboard makers don't want that, and that goes double for laptops and other smaller devices.

New Carrizo Disclosures at ISSCC:
...
Integrated Southbridge for the first time on an AMD high-performance APU

While we don't have full details yet, they really seem to be going with a system on a chip design w/HSA.

That seems to point to they want (or are going to have) everything native.

 

[NTMBK]

I am not so sure about that, the problem with having 3rd party OEMs do the work for you is that, it adds to the complexity of the design of the motherboard, and you have to have yet another source of said chips, not to mention drivers. Motherboard makers don't want that, and that goes double for laptops and other smaller devices.

If you have a bunch of separate "add on" chips in addition to your southbridge, sure. But if you just get a third party to make that single southbridge chip for you, from a catalogue of off-the-shelf IP they already have? Eh, can't see the harm in that.

 

[Abwx]

Pobability is that it s the IP that is included on the chipset, namely the USB controler in ASMedia case.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

While we don't have full details yet, they really seem to be going with a system on a chip design w/HSA.

That seems to point to they want (or are going to have) everything native.

Far as I have heard, that integrated southbridge will be disabled for desktop APUs.

Could have changed since I suppose...

 

[DrMrLordX]

Note the "commodity IP" part of this chart:

Pretty sure they're talking about all the junk left in the southbridge. Anything performance critical has moved into the CPU (memory controller, PCIe controller, integrated graphics, and now disk controller with NVMe). Everything left is "good enough" commodity/legacy stuff that hasn't improved in years on any platform. Makes sense to just buy it from Asmedia and hook it up to a few PCIe lanes, instead of spending money to reinvent the wheel.

That's interesting, in that older chipsets used HT to link the Southbridge/FCH to the CPU. Relying on a slower PCIe connection is . . . different. AMD certainly didn't have to go that route. It's probably reducing the chipset implementation cost.

Far as I have heard, that integrated southbridge will be disabled for desktop APUs.

Could have changed since I suppose...

That was the planned strategy for getting Carrizo to run on FM2+. That was canceled. There is supposed to be an Excavator quad that looks suspiciously like a Carrizo chip coming up in Q3 2016 alongside Zen named Bristol Ridge, but again, I think that AMD might respin Carrizo by taking out the on-die FCH (why leave it in for AM4?) and by not using HDL (why limit clockspeeds like that?).

 

[Fjodor2001]

http://www.kitguru.net/components/c...-chipset-development-outsourcing-deal-report/

Chipsets were a crucial part of PC platforms some five – ten years ago since they defined feature-set and performance of computers. However, in the recent years the most crucial PC components, such as memory controllers, graphics processing units, PCI Express controllers and other, migrated into central processing units; as a result, chipsets no longer play as vital role as they used to do. Nonetheless, there are a lot of input/output interfaces, such as Serial ATA, Ethernet, USB, additional PCI Express controllers and other that still remain inside the I/O controllers (which are also called FCH [fusion controller hub], PCH [platform controller hub] or south bridges). Asmedia is expected to develop next-generation I/O controllers for AMD platforms.

It makes a lot of sense for AMD to outsource development of consumer-class core-logic to Asmedia, since this lowers its expenses and may also improve its relationship with Asustek Computer, one of the major shareholders of Asmedia.

Seems like a smart move by AMD. Keep all the high performance stuff on the APU die, and outsource the rest to an external partner.

This way we'll likely get USB 3.1 etc faster, since AsMedia already has that in store. Compare that to Intel, which will not have USB 3.1 even for the Skylake chipsets.

 

[FlanK3r]

I dont think we see anything over 20 lanes from the CPU.

Today I agree