Speaking of slanted revisionism

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
"The Good Shepherd" is another rendition of fiction posing as history...as expected.The whole essence of the movie in my view was a typical Hollywood anti-American "lesson."

Of course the CIA (every Libs favorite whipping boy) is portrayed in a bad light wherein murder is common place; the elite snobs of our country - who don't care for "jews and n***ers" - control the American/British intel services; and, that, out of the words of "Yuri," the USSR "...has no spare parts, rust is just painted over, nothing works; it is NOT a threat to the West and never has been and never will be...it is the fear fanned by the military industrial complex of your country which spreads this lie."

Wow, they managed to stick a lot of standard leftist propaganda in there... but then again, Hollywood as had a lot of practice. Why doesn't anyone ever write a book that shows the CIA in a good light? Well, actually they have... but don't ever expect a movie, because that would be, like, a different view.

Like all military types I have had my share of negative opinions against the agency from time to time ... but c'mon ... they have done a lot more right (even if accidentally from time to time) than they have done poorly. (A good book: "First In: An Insider's Account of How the CIA Spearheaded the War on Terror in Afghanistan" by Gary C. Schroen. It would make an excellent movie, too. Great drama from beginning to end.)

One reason that the CIA has such a horrible rep is that their successes go into the vault for 50 years, but their failures hit the headlines the next day. But you can indirectly judge their effectiveness during the Cold War by the effort expended by the Soviet Union to neutralize them.

I think most everybody in the intel community has the same attitude toward the CIA as the Law Enforcement community have for the FBI. They're BIG! The public automatically assumes that anything that happens good or bad is because/related to them. And they believe a lot of that public image. But one thing is mostly true. Working with CIA/FBI Agents and Analysts can be a great experience. They are knowledgeable and helpful and can get thier hands on a lot of info.

So yeah, the movie stinks. It flings a lot of trash at the agency and a dead guy who, on the whole was a better man than a worse one. He wasn't entirely a Bill Donavan Ivy League type guy. He was born in Boise. Like many of them, he did some good and some bad. Tradecraft is more an art than a science, and in the end, a series of misjudgments and paranoia hoisted him on his own petard. It happens."

It's just a shame that Hollywood and those that cheer this kind of stuff believe that a few half-remembered snippets from the evening news and the ability to spell ?CIA? without a dictionary and they think they?re experts on intelligence.

My inspiration for this rant.

 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
"Speaking of slanted revisionism"? Do you know ANYTHING about what you're talking about? For the last damn time, just because some facts don't fit your righty world view does not make it "standard leftist propaganda". End of story, and stop bitching when the facts are against you.

Of course the movie isn't exactly accurate (what movie is?), but as far as getting the general points right...it's pretty damn close. The CIA was started by elitist Ivy League folks, and back in the bad old days a lot of people like that DIDN'T really care for Jews and black people. The CIA really did bungle the Bay of Pigs invasion, and even though most movies greately exaggerate it, people did (and still do) die in the intelligence business. The USSR really did fall apart so fast and so far that it left a lot of people wondering just how big of a military threat they ever were. And in any case, wasn't it the bad guy who said that? As for your "counter-story", what the hell does how the CIA "spearheaded" the war on terror in Afghanistan have to do with what the CIA did several decades ago? I mean, what do you want...should we whitewash history just because some of it has some unpleasant aspects to it? If a movie was made showing white cops in the south attacking black people with fire hoses, is that anti-police?

But there is another point worth making. Like most biased people, you saw exactly what you wanted to see in that movie...and in everything else from Hollywood for that matter. In the Good Shepherd, the main character is presented as someone who really loves his country...still a flawed person, but clearly a character we're supposed to somewhat admire, if not totally like. And remember Robert DiNero's character? "The CIA should be the eyes and ears, not the heart and soul". Perhaps taking a crack at people who think the police and military should run the country, but clearly implying that the CIA wasn't founded on those principles.

And outside of this movie? Hell, the CIA, the FBI, the police and the military are perhaps the most glorified organizations in this country in most Hollywood productions. I mean, maybe it's just the TV shows I watch, but they are filled with superhuman police officers, FBI agents and intelligence folks who are as fairminded and ethical as they are brilliant and effective. If there is ANY trend, it's that Hollywood is trying to brainswash us into being on YOUR side. Of course I don't believe in bullshit like that...
 

judasmachine

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2002
8,515
3
81
If you go to the movies for history, then you get what you deserve. It's kind of like watching CNN or Fox for news, or watching ER for medical advice..
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: judasmachine
If you go to the movies for history, then you get what you deserve. It's kind of like watching CNN or Fox for news, or watching ER for medical advice..

Yeah, but you need to understand the mindset. Some people are extremely insecure about their opinions, and if they don't get constant affirmation of their world view everywhere they go, they have a mental breakdown. I can't think of any other reason stupid stuff like this is even a topic of discussion. And this goes for BOTH sides, not just righties like cwjerome. For every thread like this, there is some thread with some liberal getting his panties in a wad over something just as silly.
 

Termagant

Senior member
Mar 10, 2006
765
0
0
WTF the libs don't like the CIA?

I thought the NeoCons didn't like the CIA because it was too "liberal," "trusting of the enemy," and "grounded in facts" as in the episodes of Team B and the Iraq Invasion???
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
Rainsford, I'm disappointed you went off on a reactionary, and all-too common counterattack. You just never give me enough credit.

The last thing I want to do is whitewash history, so get that out of your system. And you go off on so many weird assumptions, it's really not possible to give a proper response. I mean, if you can't get that the book I mentioned was simply an example of showing the CIA is a positive light (as sort of a counterbalance to all the "evil CIA" stuff we always get), then there's not much I can say to you.

Let's get real, a well-deserved critique doesn't necessarily mean there's an insecure mental breakdown, Freud.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Rainsford, I'm disappointed you went off on a reactionary, and all-too common counterattack. You just never give me enough credit.

The last thing I want to do is whitewash history, so get that out of your system. And you go off on so many weird assumptions, it's really not possible to give a proper response. I mean, if you can't get that the book I mentioned was simply an example of showing the CIA is a positive light (as sort of a counterbalance to all the "evil CIA" stuff we always get), then there's not much I can say to you.

Let's get real, a well-deserved critique doesn't necessarily mean there's an insecure mental breakdown, Freud.

I have NO problem with a well-deserved critique of this movie, any movie, or anything else for that matter. I think it's a integral part of living in a democracy, hell, it's an integral part of living at all, that seems to be frequently overlooked by people looking to make the easy argument. Even if I disagree with you, I'd give you a lot of credit for making the intellectual effort.

Except this WASN'T a well-deserved critique. This was less intelligent criticism and more Bill O'Reilly. Your post is more generalizations about Hollywood and liberals than anything else. I couldn't even get past the first sentence without hearing the old towering intellectual argument that someone is "anti-American", and the very next sentence was that "every lib" hates the CIA and, presumably, America. You didn't argue against the specific problems you had with the movie, you just dismissed everything you didn't like as "standard leftist propaganda" and implied that's all Hollywood produces anyways. This well crafted argument against the movie was followed by statements implying you like the modern CIA and a line from "The Recruit", oddly enough one of the more pro-CIA movies. I think we'll all admit that just because an organization is good now, that doesn't mean it was good 50 years ago, but your argument is (apparently) that this one movie didn't cover the positive things that happened decades after the movie took place.

Like I said, I have no problem at all with reasonable discussion on the topic...but if it sounds like I'm not giving you enough credit, it's because your post(s) sound like they came right out of Bill O'Reilly's mouth. What could have been a good discussion about the tone and historical content of this movie was instead a rant about how Hollywood and liberals hate the CIA, and America, with plenty of implications that you know a lot about the intelligence business, so you MUST be right.
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
Well let's face it, it's the nature of the beast around here to go to extremes... so a little left-wing Lib spice makes the recipe so much tastier.

The more "proper" critique comes from the article linked. My take (as stereotypical as you believe it is) is that it's par for the course for left-wing Hollywood. It would be one thing for this just to be a random flick, but the real problem is it's just one piece of a larger, historical obsession Hollywood has with the EVAL, conniving, Syriana-type CIA syndrome. The only reason you think I'm cliche is because I'm addressing this Hollywood cliche!

In any event, you may believe The Good Shepherd is accurate enough and fair. Duly noted. Somehow though, I tend to think the majority of those in the intel-biz would disagree... just a hunch.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
0
Hey, at least they don't make up scenes like that movie, Path to 9/11. :laugh:
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
0
0
Originally posted by: cwjerome
"The Good Shepherd" is another rendition of fiction posing as history...as expected.The whole essence of the movie in my view was a typical Hollywood anti-American "lesson."

Of course the CIA (every Libs favorite whipping boy) is portrayed in a bad light wherein murder is common place; the elite snobs of our country - who don't care for "jews and n***ers" - control the American/British intel services; and, that, out of the words of "Yuri," the USSR "...has no spare parts, rust is just painted over, nothing works; it is NOT a threat to the West and never has been and never will be...it is the fear fanned by the military industrial complex of your country which spreads this lie."

Wow, they managed to stick a lot of standard leftist propaganda in there... but then again, Hollywood as had a lot of practice. Why doesn't anyone ever write a book that shows the CIA in a good light? Well, actually they have... but don't ever expect a movie, because that would be, like, a different view.

Like all military types I have had my share of negative opinions against the agency from time to time ... but c'mon ... they have done a lot more right (even if accidentally from time to time) than they have done poorly. (A good book: "First In: An Insider's Account of How the CIA Spearheaded the War on Terror in Afghanistan" by Gary C. Schroen. It would make an excellent movie, too. Great drama from beginning to end.)

One reason that the CIA has such a horrible rep is that their successes go into the vault for 50 years, but their failures hit the headlines the next day. But you can indirectly judge their effectiveness during the Cold War by the effort expended by the Soviet Union to neutralize them.

I think most everybody in the intel community has the same attitude toward the CIA as the Law Enforcement community have for the FBI. They're BIG! The public automatically assumes that anything that happens good or bad is because/related to them. And they believe a lot of that public image. But one thing is mostly true. Working with CIA/FBI Agents and Analysts can be a great experience. They are knowledgeable and helpful and can get thier hands on a lot of info.

So yeah, the movie stinks. It flings a lot of trash at the agency and a dead guy who, on the whole was a better man than a worse one. He wasn't entirely a Bill Donavan Ivy League type guy. He was born in Boise. Like many of them, he did some good and some bad. Tradecraft is more an art than a science, and in the end, a series of misjudgments and paranoia hoisted him on his own petard. It happens."

It's just a shame that Hollywood and those that cheer this kind of stuff believe that a few half-remembered snippets from the evening news and the ability to spell ?CIA? without a dictionary and they think they?re experts on intelligence.

My inspiration for this rant.

Not that they don't try to do some kind of good, but generally the CIA sucks a$$. It's been controlled by some VERY bad men and used for some VERY bad ends. If I could go back in time it would be hard for me not to go kill Kermit as a child to prevent that bastard from inflicting all the harm he did. That also goes for most of the higher-ups in the bureau in the 20th century.

Of course this all depends on your basic philosophy of life and political views. If you side with PNAC you'll love them. If not then you're more likely to be against them. There is no right or wrong, just opinions on how things should be done and what kind of world we choose to live in.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: cwjerome

The more "proper" critique comes from the article linked. My take (as stereotypical as you believe it is) is that it's par for the course for left-wing Hollywood. It would be one thing for this just to be a random flick, but the real problem is it's just one piece of a larger, historical obsession Hollywood has with the EVAL, conniving, Syriana-type CIA syndrome. The only reason you think I'm cliche is because I'm addressing this Hollywood cliche!

have you ever thought that thats because it might just be true?
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
Originally posted by: cwjerome
"The Good Shepherd" is another rendition of fiction posing as history...as expected.The whole essence of the movie in my view was a typical Hollywood anti-American "lesson."

Of course the CIA (every Libs favorite whipping boy) is portrayed in a bad light wherein murder is common place; the elite snobs of our country - who don't care for "jews and n***ers" - control the American/British intel services; and, that, out of the words of "Yuri," the USSR "...has no spare parts, rust is just painted over, nothing works; it is NOT a threat to the West and never has been and never will be...it is the fear fanned by the military industrial complex of your country which spreads this lie."

Wow, they managed to stick a lot of standard leftist propaganda in there... but then again, Hollywood as had a lot of practice. Why doesn't anyone ever write a book that shows the CIA in a good light? Well, actually they have... but don't ever expect a movie, because that would be, like, a different view.

Like all military types I have had my share of negative opinions against the agency from time to time ... but c'mon ... they have done a lot more right (even if accidentally from time to time) than they have done poorly. (A good book: "First In: An Insider's Account of How the CIA Spearheaded the War on Terror in Afghanistan" by Gary C. Schroen. It would make an excellent movie, too. Great drama from beginning to end.)

One reason that the CIA has such a horrible rep is that their successes go into the vault for 50 years, but their failures hit the headlines the next day. But you can indirectly judge their effectiveness during the Cold War by the effort expended by the Soviet Union to neutralize them.

I think most everybody in the intel community has the same attitude toward the CIA as the Law Enforcement community have for the FBI. They're BIG! The public automatically assumes that anything that happens good or bad is because/related to them. And they believe a lot of that public image. But one thing is mostly true. Working with CIA/FBI Agents and Analysts can be a great experience. They are knowledgeable and helpful and can get thier hands on a lot of info.

So yeah, the movie stinks. It flings a lot of trash at the agency and a dead guy who, on the whole was a better man than a worse one. He wasn't entirely a Bill Donavan Ivy League type guy. He was born in Boise. Like many of them, he did some good and some bad. Tradecraft is more an art than a science, and in the end, a series of misjudgments and paranoia hoisted him on his own petard. It happens."

It's just a shame that Hollywood and those that cheer this kind of stuff believe that a few half-remembered snippets from the evening news and the ability to spell ?CIA? without a dictionary and they think they?re experts on intelligence.

My inspiration for this rant.

Not half critical enough. A meager attempt at showing us what a criminally pragmatic agency was like.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
I saw it after hearing that it was the best movie ever, best movie this year, best movie in years, and whatever. It was the worst movie I've seen in a long time. It was boring, depressing, and not very thought-provoking. I must have missed something. :confused: More's the pity because I really like the cast in just about everything else they've ever done.
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
I don't know about the truthfulness of the movie, but as a movie, I HATED it. I figured I'd think it was a good movie before I watched it, but it was one of the most boring movies I've ever seen.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: ntdz
I don't know about the truthfulness of the movie, but as a movie, I HATED it. I figured I'd think it was a good movie before I watched it, but it was one of the most boring movies I've ever seen.
Probably like Munich. It got so much hype but it was boring as hell even if it was based of actual events.

 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: cwjerome
"The Good Shepherd" is another rendition of fiction posing as history...as expected.The whole essence of the movie in my view was a typical Hollywood anti-American "lesson."

Of course the CIA (every Libs favorite whipping boy) is portrayed in a bad light wherein murder is common place; the elite snobs of our country - who don't care for "jews and n***ers" - control the American/British intel services; and, that, out of the words of "Yuri," the USSR "...has no spare parts, rust is just painted over, nothing works; it is NOT a threat to the West and never has been and never will be...it is the fear fanned by the military industrial complex of your country which spreads this lie."

Wow, they managed to stick a lot of standard leftist propaganda in there... but then again, Hollywood as had a lot of practice. Why doesn't anyone ever write a book that shows the CIA in a good light? Well, actually they have... but don't ever expect a movie, because that would be, like, a different view.

Like all military types I have had my share of negative opinions against the agency from time to time ... but c'mon ... they have done a lot more right (even if accidentally from time to time) than they have done poorly. (A good book: "First In: An Insider's Account of How the CIA Spearheaded the War on Terror in Afghanistan" by Gary C. Schroen. It would make an excellent movie, too. Great drama from beginning to end.)

One reason that the CIA has such a horrible rep is that their successes go into the vault for 50 years, but their failures hit the headlines the next day. But you can indirectly judge their effectiveness during the Cold War by the effort expended by the Soviet Union to neutralize them.

I think most everybody in the intel community has the same attitude toward the CIA as the Law Enforcement community have for the FBI. They're BIG! The public automatically assumes that anything that happens good or bad is because/related to them. And they believe a lot of that public image. But one thing is mostly true. Working with CIA/FBI Agents and Analysts can be a great experience. They are knowledgeable and helpful and can get thier hands on a lot of info.

So yeah, the movie stinks. It flings a lot of trash at the agency and a dead guy who, on the whole was a better man than a worse one. He wasn't entirely a Bill Donavan Ivy League type guy. He was born in Boise. Like many of them, he did some good and some bad. Tradecraft is more an art than a science, and in the end, a series of misjudgments and paranoia hoisted him on his own petard. It happens."

It's just a shame that Hollywood and those that cheer this kind of stuff believe that a few half-remembered snippets from the evening news and the ability to spell ?CIA? without a dictionary and they think they?re experts on intelligence.

My inspiration for this rant.
I bet you didn't like Godfather as it was slanted and biased.:roll:
 

dmw16

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 2000
7,608
0
0
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: ntdz
I don't know about the truthfulness of the movie, but as a movie, I HATED it. I figured I'd think it was a good movie before I watched it, but it was one of the most boring movies I've ever seen.
Probably like Munich. It got so much hype but it was boring as hell even if it was based of actual events.

I thought Munich was pretty good.

But to the point of the thread, the CIA did some really bad stuff. I don't think there is a lot of dispute on that. They probably are doing some bad stuff right now. You need to decide for yourself if the ends justify the means. But don't try to make them out to be the good guys, and I won't make them out to be the bad guys. They are merely being pragmatic, you need to decide if you are ok with that.
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,505
3
81
Hollywood is in the business of entertainment, it does not portray or record reality or history.
 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
11,112
1,587
126
This is almost on the level of the thread last year bitching about how V For Vendetta was attacking the neo-conservatives despite the fact that V For Vendetta was a fairly accurate adaptation of a comic series written in the early 80's about the British government. People on the right complain that Hollywood is too far left and attack it as if they do nothing but spew liberal rhetoric. And people on the left see Hollywood as glorifying the worst traits of militarism and what they feel is negative neo-convservative traits. The thing is, everything is gonna offend someone, because there's always some moron too stupid to just be entertained. So rather than say "eh, I don't agree but that was entertaining", people try to turn everything into a political issue.

I agree with free speech, but I wish I could get an earpiece that filters out speech coming from a person of below average intelligence. It might make me angry less often.
 

uOpt

Golden Member
Oct 19, 2004
1,628
0
0
Originally posted by: cwjerome
A good book: "First In: An Insider's Account of How the CIA Spearheaded the War on Terror in Afghanistan" by Gary C. Schroen. It would make an excellent movie, too. Great drama from beginning to end.)

I just had to chime in and second that recommendation. Excellent read, one of the best post-9/11 accounts I came across.

It isn't for liberals or neocons, just a plain account of how the CIA operated in Afghanistan after 9/11 and toppled the Taliban (well, mostly).

And how difficult this line of work is. You have to juggle your own big agency's managers, you have to cooperate with the U.S. military (uh), you have to work with a whole bunch of factions in-country who would as well go against each other as against the Taliban, you have Uzbekistan and the other countries around Afghanistan with their own interests and conflicting demands. All that has to go into one package to bring a laser-guided bomb into that bunker holding the machine gun shooting at you.

("Jawbreaker" which is from the same period is much worse, IMHO, don't get it.)
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
Originally posted by: thraashman
The thing is, everything is gonna offend someone, because there's always some moron too stupid to just be entertained. So rather than say "eh, I don't agree but that was entertaining", people try to turn everything into a political issue.

Too stupid to be entertained... oh, the irony. Well if thoughtfulness is not your strong suite and you just want to be entertained, have at it. We certainly wouldn't want to spoil your amusement with critical appraisal of any sort.

But for those who take the dominant art form of our age -cinema- with a grain of logic, honesty, and philosophy... well, I guess we'll just have to try not to offend anyone who can't see past the entertainment value.

Right.