Sovereign Citizens

[her209]

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/p...nt-bulletin/september-2011/sovereign-citizens

Ideology and Motivation

The FBI considers sovereign-citizen extremists as comprising a domestic terrorist movement, which, scattered across the United States, has existed for decades, with well-known members, such as Terry Nichols, who helped plan the Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, bombing. Sovereign citizens do not represent an anarchist group, nor are they a militia, although they sometimes use or buy illegal weapons. Rather, they operate as individuals without established leadership and only come together in loosely affiliated groups to train, help each other with paperwork, or socialize and talk about their ideology. They may refer to themselves as “constitutionalists” or “freemen,” which is not necessarily a connection to a specific group, but, rather, an indication that they are free from government control. They follow their own set of laws. While the philosophies and conspiracy theories can vary from person to person, their core beliefs are the same: The government operates outside of its jurisdiction. Because of this belief, they do not recognize federal, state, or local laws, policies, or regulations.1

One prevalent sovereign-citizen theory is the Redemption Theory, which claims the U.S. government went bankrupt when it abandoned the gold standard basis for currency in 1933 and began using citizens as collateral in trade agreements with foreign governments.2 These beliefs can provide a gateway to illegal activity because such individuals believe the U.S. government does not act in the best interests of the American people. By announcing themselves as sovereign citizens, they are emancipated from the responsibilities of being a U.S. citizen, including paying taxes, possessing a state driver’s license, or obeying the law.

What do you guys think about these so-called "sovereign" citizens? Are they just a nuisance or do they represent a real danger and growing threat in the USA?

 

[schmuckley]

Fraud can't be good

 

[Jaskalas]

In most areas it doesn't make much sense for someone to tell everyone else to !@#$ off. Though my sympathies go out to people in more remote places who just want to be left alone. I don't think I'd want to live that way, so far from others. Where I live I've got neighbors, a city, a county, a state, and a country. In many ways I'm beholden to the laws from one or the other. Or at least from the neighbors a desire not to burden or piss them off. An island is a very lonely place, instead I live in a community and that is what I desire.

However, I strongly feel for the right of self determination. For me that means bringing as many laws and regulations affecting me down to the lowest, most local governing body possible. Democracy works best when it is local. Where your voice can be heard loudest, where you can protest and participate in person, where your common interests may be shared, where a common good can be realized and then achieved.

I do not believe a Government representing 310 million people is a good thing for us as individuals, or for minorities even though there have been some exceptions. I cannot travel to DC and be heard, the expense is far too great. Besides, what am I to their lobbyists? Nothing. We the people are lost beneath the weight and size of central planning. I do not believe that is Democracy.

Then I take stock at where we are. Top-down dictatorship from the Federal level, with enough laws and regulations to tell you how to live your life. They squeeze money out of the States, and then return it for those who are subservient. Oppose them, and lose your federal funding. Lose your life's blood. Who has time for grandiose notions of "sovereign citizen" when your State doesn't even control its own affairs? When your State representatives are shackled by federal edict?

If Freedom is a journey to discover just how far we can go, then fighting for State's Rights is the first logical step.


Far as these folks go, I don't know them. It sounds like they share many Conservative, or Libertarian ideals with me - but they take it to extremism. They are likely secluded, withdrawn from the idea that they already lost the fight, probably waiting for the black SUVs to pull up and take away what little they have left. They sound like a sad tale of Americans who have given up on life. If there is criminal activity, then proceed with their arrest and prosecution on a per case basis. I feel no need for collective action nor punishment.

 

[Anarchist420]

the FBI should be abolished and replaced with nothing. and i dont know if it has to do with FDR raising the price of gold, but there is something odd about how every president since and including FDR has acted like they would get killed if they reduced the size of the State.

In most areas it doesn't make much sense for someone to tell everyone else to !@#$ off. Though my sympathies go out to people in more remote places who just want to be left alone. I don't think I'd want to live that way, so far from others. Where I live I've got neighbors, a city, a county, a state, and a country. In many ways I'm beholden to the laws from one or the other. Or at least from the neighbors a desire not to burden or piss them off. An island is a very lonely place, and I think I live in a community and that is what I desire. However, I strongly feel for the right of self determination. For me that means bringing as many laws and regulations affecting me down to the lowest, most local governing body possible. Democracy works best when it is local. Where your voice can be heard loudest, where you can protest and participate in person, where your common interests may be shared, where a common good can be realized and then achieved. I do not believe a Government representing 310 million people is a good thing for us as individuals, or for minorities even though there have been some exceptions. I cannot travel to DC and be heard, the expense is far too great. Besides, what am I to their lobbyists? Nothing. We the people are lost beneath the weight and size of central planning. I do not believe that is Democracy. Then I take stock at where we are. Top-down dictatorship from the Federal level, with enough laws and regulations to tell you how to live your life. They squeeze money out of the States, and then return it for those who are subservient. Oppose them, and lose your federal funding. Lose your life's blood. Who has time for grandiose notions of "sovereign citizen" when your State doesn't even control its own affairs? When your State representatives are shackled by federal edict? If Freedom is a journey to discover just how far we can go, then fighting for State's Rights is the first logical step. Far as these folks go, I don't know them. It sounds like they share many Conservative, or Libertarian ideals with me - but they take it to extremism. They are likely secluded, withdrawn from the idea that they already lost the fight, probably waiting for the black SUVs to pull up and take away what little they have left. They sound like a sad tale of Americans who have given up on life. I only heard about them, recently, from P&N. You folks keep making noise for them, is MSNBC filling your head with fear? If there is criminal activity, then proceed with their arrest and prosecution on a per case basis. I feel no need for collective action nor punishment.

+1

 

[zanejohnson]

these aren't people meeting up to fill out paperwork.

this is a keyword that popped up in forums,...after some people read and misinterpreted the constitution..

nothing to see here, move along....

 

[DominionSeraph]

Actions and reactions flow from belief, so conservatards are always a potential threat.

 

[Spungo]

I like how the FBI describe them.

They may refer to themselves as “constitutionalists” or “freemen,” which is not necessarily a connection to a specific group, but, rather, an indication that they are free from government control. They follow their own set of laws. While the philosophies and conspiracy theories can vary from person to person, their core beliefs are the same: The government operates outside of its jurisdiction. Because of this belief, they do not recognize federal, state, or local laws, policies, or regulations.1

So, basically, a sovereign citizen is anyone who isn't part of the machine.

because such individuals believe the U.S. government does not act in the best interests of the American people.

Sorry, but isn't this a confirmed fact?

 

[Theb]

I don't have a license. My person does, but I don't.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7U5eJN3hLI

 

[waggy]

they are nuts. some of them take it to the extreme and will file claims on people's property. or report them to the creditors claiming that they owe them hundreds of thousands of dollars.

 

[SunnyD]

So basically they don't want anything to do with the US of A, except every benefit that comes with being an American...

If they're sovereign citizens who have denounced their "US citizenship", then when they get caught where do they get deported to since they have no state of their own? Sure, they don't recognize the authority of the US government, but that doesn't really matter much now does it?

 

[glenn1]

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/p...nt-bulletin/september-2011/sovereign-citizens

What do you guys think about these so-called "sovereign" citizens? Are they just a nuisance or do they represent a real danger and growing threat in the USA?

While mostly crazy I think they're 100% accurate with some of what they think, especially this part:

such individuals believe the U.S. government does not act in the best interests of the American people

 

[theeedude]

More oxymoronic right wing BS.
Money is speech.
Corporations are people.
People are sovereigns.
It doesn't make any sense, but sounds reasonable to their little brains.

 

[piasabird]

What do you think of Tyranny?

 

[brycejones]

Sovereign citizens are nutters.

 

[rommelrommel]

So basically they don't want anything to do with the US of A, except every benefit that comes with being an American...

If they're sovereign citizens who have denounced their "US citizenship", then when they get caught where do they get deported to since they have no state of their own? Sure, they don't recognize the authority of the US government, but that doesn't really matter much now does it?

Generally they end up in jail or Alaska/Utah.

 

[Jaskalas]

If "Sovereign Citizens" were a problem, what would you like us to do about them?

 

[Spungo]

If "Sovereign Citizens" were a problem, what would you like us to do about them?

Declare war, neutralize threat, annex land.