Source: Obama to reverse limits on stem cell work

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jagec

Lifer
Apr 30, 2004
24,442
6
81
Originally posted by: Genx87
Perhaps your view it is behind is incorrect and there simply arent the gains from embryoic stem cells that are seen in adult stem cells.

This is such a jaw-droppingly absurd claim that it simply must be addressed.

Cell differentiation and cell signaling (and developmental biology, for that matter) are VERY hot areas of research right now, and for good reason. We still don't totally understand how the massive sequence space of DNA is regulated to ensure proper cell migration and differentiation into the host of incredibly localized and specialized progenitor cells than then bud off as needed to renew and repair the body, but is is known beyond the shadow of a doubt that embryonic stem cells ARE more flexible than adult stem cells, and, indeed, since embryonic stem cells give rise to adult stem cells, they can be manipulated to do anything and everything that adult stem cells--any adult stem cells--can do. Saying that embryonic stem cells cannot do what adult stem cells can is tantamount to saying that time is not linear, the universe does not operate according to logic and reason, and that science is no different than astrology, fortune-telling, or examining entrails. I'll say this again: If embryonic stem cells are found to be unable to be manipulated into a state where they can do anything which adult stem cells are capable of, then I will immediately stop believing in science entirely.
Now, obviously there has been more success with adult stem cells than embryonic, but this is actually because the latter represents a less flexible and less powerful tool. Adult stem cells are capable of limited feats of mobility, differentiation, and growth, and they do this according to the commands of a more limited set of signals. It's akin to giving a child a hammer versus a universal pneumatic driver--while the latter is certainly a more powerful and versatile tool, until they can understand how to work it, the hammer is actually safer and will be more productive for them in the short term. However, the long-term promise of ES cells is practically limitless. The issue with oncogenesis which you touched on earlier is obviously a big deal, and further understanding of the cellular signals which coax stem cells into growth, division, differentiation, and metastasis is clearly needed prior to any clinical work. Indeed, part of the reason why clinical benefits to ES research have been so slow to come has been an understandable concern about the safety of these methods. No one wants to rush a potentially groundbreaking cure out the door before it is fully understood, only to find out about the side effects later! Indeed, most scientists rightfully condemn those irresponsible companies which sometimes choose to play to the public, release their work early, fast-track it into clinical trials, and later discover problems--which, of course, lead to the entire scientific community taking the heat. As such, ESC work appears to progress more slowly than work with adult cells, simply because as the power and versatility of the technique increases, so must our knowledge and predictive abilities be greater in order to responsibly shepherd it.

To put it into simpler terms: Let's say that you're leading a group of paratroopers into WW2 Germany. You see a tank factory ahead, with Nazi tanks rolling out steadily and wreaking havoc on the front lines. You send two men in: One man is sent to stop a tank, and the other is sent into the factory itself. After a few minutes of figuring out how the tracks, guns, etc work, the first man manages to blow the treads off of a tank, and moves on to another. Meanwhile, the guy on the inside is still trying to work out how all of the machines work, and which levers control production. That is where we are at right now with stem cell research. Once the man on the inside manages to work out how to stop production (and not, say, accidentally crank it up), the gains from that act alone will far outstrip any tank-destruction that is taking place on the outside.
But more knowledge is needed to make this breakthrough.

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I just want to say that while I support stem cell research, I admire the instinct that tells people so many things we can do today seem to threaten the notion that life is sacred.

As a scientist working in the field, I wholeheartedly agree. However, I would implore the general public not to make the assumption that scientists are operating in a moral vacuum with no thought to the ethical consequences of their research. Scientists are no less moral than the general populace, and, in fact, I would even say that they tend to be more so. Also, recognizing the potential problems posed by such powerful new knowledge, any research institute worth its salt has an ethics committee to ensure that all research is done in an ethically and legally satisfactory manner, animals are not mistreated or needlessly sacrificed, human patients have full confidentiality, information about the trials in which they are participating, and risk is minimized, etc.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Teen Returns From China With Ability To See

A teenager from Wellington knows firsthand what stem cells can do.

Macie Morse was born with optic nerve hypoplasia, meaning her optic nerve didn't develop all the way. The only way to repair it was to grow more of the nerve using umbilical cord stem cells.

She and her mother traveled all the way to China for an experimental treatment.

For 6 weeks Morse received injections of cord stem cells and acupuncture to stimulate the cells. Gradually, they took hold and began growing the optic nerve Morse was missing.

"I saw snow fall for the first time," she told CBS4's Shaun Boyd.

"What has been the most beautiful thing?" Boyd asked Morse.

"I'd say many things -- but (probably) my mom's eyes."

"What was it like when she said 'You have green eyes?'" Boyd asked her mother Rochelle.

"My knees went weak. I felt like I had just fallen off a nine story building," Rochelle said.

Morse now has her learner's permit for driving, something her mom never thought she'd see.

"I'm experiencing a miracle," Rochelle said. "This is what it feels like."

The umbilical cord stem cells she had injected have already increased her vision to almost 20/20 and the cells continue to grow more of the nerve.

Morse and her mom are now fighting to bring the therapy to the United States
 
Nov 30, 2006
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389
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Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Teen Returns From China With Ability To See

A teenager from Wellington knows firsthand what stem cells can do.

Macie Morse was born with optic nerve hypoplasia, meaning her optic nerve didn't develop all the way. The only way to repair it was to grow more of the nerve using umbilical cord stem cells.

She and her mother traveled all the way to China for an experimental treatment.

For 6 weeks Morse received injections of cord stem cells and acupuncture to stimulate the cells. Gradually, they took hold and began growing the optic nerve Morse was missing.

"I saw snow fall for the first time," she told CBS4's Shaun Boyd.

"What has been the most beautiful thing?" Boyd asked Morse.

"I'd say many things -- but (probably) my mom's eyes."

"What was it like when she said 'You have green eyes?'" Boyd asked her mother Rochelle.

"My knees went weak. I felt like I had just fallen off a nine story building," Rochelle said.

Morse now has her learner's permit for driving, something her mom never thought she'd see.

"I'm experiencing a miracle," Rochelle said. "This is what it feels like."

The umbilical cord stem cells she had injected have already increased her vision to almost 20/20 and the cells continue to grow more of the nerve.

Morse and her mom are now fighting to bring the therapy to the United States
Adult stem cells.
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
143
106
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Teen Returns From China With Ability To See

A teenager from Wellington knows firsthand what stem cells can do.

Adult stem cells.

Yep, but you must have missed this study:
Text

Human Embryonic Stem Cell-Derived Oligodendrocyte Progenitor Cell Transplants Remyelinate and Restore Locomotion after Spinal Cord Injury

Hans S. Keirstead,1 Gabriel Nistor,1 Giovanna Bernal,1 Minodora Totoiu,1 Frank Cloutier,1 Kelly Sharp,1 and Oswald Steward1,2,3

Departments of 1Anatomy and Neurobiology, 2Neurobiology and Behavior, and 3Neurosurgery, Reeve-Irvine Research Center, College of Medicine, University of California at Irvine, Irvine, California 92697-4292

Demyelination contributes to loss of function after spinal cord injury, and thus a potential therapeutic strategy involves replacing myelin-forming cells. Here, we show that transplantation of human embryonic stem cell (hESC)-derived oligodendrocyte progenitor cells (OPCs) into adult rat spinal cord injuries enhances remyelination and promotes improvement of motor function. OPCs were injected 7 d or 10 months after injury. In both cases, transplanted cells survived, redistributed over short distances, and differentiated into oligodendrocytes. Animals that received OPCs 7 d after injury exhibited enhanced remyelination and substantially improved locomotor ability. In contrast, when OPCs were transplanted 10 months after injury, there was no enhanced remyelination or locomotor recovery. These studies document the feasibility of predifferentiating hESCs into functional OPCs and demonstrate their therapeutic potential at early time points after spinal cord injury.

Pretty much the only study out there right now, but has led to a human trial study this summer:

The trials will involve eight to 10 patients who are completely paralyzed below the third to tenth vertebra, and who sustained their spinal cord injury within seven to 14 days. The tests will use stem cells cultured from embryos left over in fertility clinics, which otherwise would have been discarded.

Using the stem cells, researchers have developed cells called oligodendrocytes, which are precursors to nerve cells and which produce a protective layer around nerve cells known as myelin. Researchers will inject these nerve cells directly into the part of the spine where the injury occurred.

Why don't you reserve judgement about Adult vs Embryonic until this study is over? Then we can revisit which is better, but Embryonic clearly has shown to be promising even if it is behind Adult due to political/religious cockblocks.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,744
6,761
126
Originally posted by: jagec
Originally posted by: Genx87
Perhaps your view it is behind is incorrect and there simply arent the gains from embryoic stem cells that are seen in adult stem cells.

This is such a jaw-droppingly absurd claim that it simply must be addressed.

Cell differentiation and cell signaling (and developmental biology, for that matter) are VERY hot areas of research right now, and for good reason. We still don't totally understand how the massive sequence space of DNA is regulated to ensure proper cell migration and differentiation into the host of incredibly localized and specialized progenitor cells than then bud off as needed to renew and repair the body, but is is known beyond the shadow of a doubt that embryonic stem cells ARE more flexible than adult stem cells, and, indeed, since embryonic stem cells give rise to adult stem cells, they can be manipulated to do anything and everything that adult stem cells--any adult stem cells--can do. Saying that embryonic stem cells cannot do what adult stem cells can is tantamount to saying that time is not linear, the universe does not operate according to logic and reason, and that science is no different than astrology, fortune-telling, or examining entrails. I'll say this again: If embryonic stem cells are found to be unable to be manipulated into a state where they can do anything which adult stem cells are capable of, then I will immediately stop believing in science entirely.
Now, obviously there has been more success with adult stem cells than embryonic, but this is actually because the latter represents a less flexible and less powerful tool. Adult stem cells are capable of limited feats of mobility, differentiation, and growth, and they do this according to the commands of a more limited set of signals. It's akin to giving a child a hammer versus a universal pneumatic driver--while the latter is certainly a more powerful and versatile tool, until they can understand how to work it, the hammer is actually safer and will be more productive for them in the short term. However, the long-term promise of ES cells is practically limitless. The issue with oncogenesis which you touched on earlier is obviously a big deal, and further understanding of the cellular signals which coax stem cells into growth, division, differentiation, and metastasis is clearly needed prior to any clinical work. Indeed, part of the reason why clinical benefits to ES research have been so slow to come has been an understandable concern about the safety of these methods. No one wants to rush a potentially groundbreaking cure out the door before it is fully understood, only to find out about the side effects later! Indeed, most scientists rightfully condemn those irresponsible companies which sometimes choose to play to the public, release their work early, fast-track it into clinical trials, and later discover problems--which, of course, lead to the entire scientific community taking the heat. As such, ESC work appears to progress more slowly than work with adult cells, simply because as the power and versatility of the technique increases, so must our knowledge and predictive abilities be greater in order to responsibly shepherd it.

To put it into simpler terms: Let's say that you're leading a group of paratroopers into WW2 Germany. You see a tank factory ahead, with Nazi tanks rolling out steadily and wreaking havoc on the front lines. You send two men in: One man is sent to stop a tank, and the other is sent into the factory itself. After a few minutes of figuring out how the tracks, guns, etc work, the first man manages to blow the treads off of a tank, and moves on to another. Meanwhile, the guy on the inside is still trying to work out how all of the machines work, and which levers control production. That is where we are at right now with stem cell research. Once the man on the inside manages to work out how to stop production (and not, say, accidentally crank it up), the gains from that act alone will far outstrip any tank-destruction that is taking place on the outside.
But more knowledge is needed to make this breakthrough.

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I just want to say that while I support stem cell research, I admire the instinct that tells people so many things we can do today seem to threaten the notion that life is sacred.

As a scientist working in the field, I wholeheartedly agree. However, I would implore the general public not to make the assumption that scientists are operating in a moral vacuum with no thought to the ethical consequences of their research. Scientists are no less moral than the general populace, and, in fact, I would even say that they tend to be more so. Also, recognizing the potential problems posed by such powerful new knowledge, any research institute worth its salt has an ethics committee to ensure that all research is done in an ethically and legally satisfactory manner, animals are not mistreated or needlessly sacrificed, human patients have full confidentiality, information about the trials in which they are participating, and risk is minimized, etc.

I respect your opinion but I'm afraid I'm not much comforted by the notion that scientists are no less moral than the general population. That is a very poor standard of morality in my opinion. I am not much comforted either, by the existence of ethics committees. I feel that organizing ethics by committee is an excellent way to sluff off ones personal responsibility and conscience under the guise of we are operating under ethical guidelines somebody else set and I don't have to question. Scientists have given us nerve gas, biochemical warfare, nuclear weapons power. These are completely insane places to focus one's intellect, but the pocket book gets big, you see. I see that in a world where everybody hates himself, including scientists, the temptation to substitute money for where self love should provide proper reward, you will get people working on anything that pays, and scientists are no different. The problem, however, is that they work on things like how to kill millions, naturally, though, those millions of bad people that threaten our freedom. Right, and the same thing motivates the other side.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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Originally posted by: abj13
snip
I used the term "cure" loosely and you jump all over that...okay. Perhaps I should have used the term "effective treatments"...isn't the semantics game fun. Personally I think you're being anal on this point, but hey...that's your perogative.

There are many FDA approved treatments listed in Prentice's paper and I never said that all treatments listed were FDA approved and neither did he. Yet you say "LMAO, you some how deny that the majority of his cited diseases aren't approved by the FDA...". I never denied that. Your reading comprehesion skills are highly suspect.

So...let's cut to the chase here. How many FDA-approved adult stem cell treatments have been approved? The answer is many. How many FDA-approved embryonic stem cell treatments have been approved? The answer is zero.

Let's take this a step further:
How many adult stem cell treatments have cured people? The answer is many. How many embryonic stem cell treatments have cured people? The answer is zero.

I stand by my statement "Adult stem cell research has been far more successful in providing cures for serious illnesses." I never said 'FDA approved' cures. Again, your reading comprehesion skills are highly suspect.

People have actually been cured using adult stem cell treatments. Can you at least admit that NO people have been cured using embryonic stem cell treatments? Or do you want to continue arguing with me regarding assertions I never made? Sheesh. Get real.
 
Dec 10, 2005
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Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Let's take this a step further:
How many adult stem cell treatments have cured people? The answer is many. How many embryonic stem cell treatments have cured people? The answer is zero.

Are you stupid?

You cannot make blind statements like that without actually doing research into the area.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Let's take this a step further:
How many adult stem cell treatments have cured people? The answer is many. How many embryonic stem cell treatments have cured people? The answer is zero.

Are you stupid?

You cannot make blind statements like that without actually doing research into the area.
Please answer the questions and show us all how smart you are and how stupid I am. Is that asking too much?
 
Nov 30, 2006
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Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Teen Returns From China With Ability To See

A teenager from Wellington knows firsthand what stem cells can do.

Adult stem cells.

Yep, but you must have missed this study:
Text

Human Embryonic Stem Cell-Derived Oligodendrocyte Progenitor Cell Transplants Remyelinate and Restore Locomotion after Spinal Cord Injury

Hans S. Keirstead,1 Gabriel Nistor,1 Giovanna Bernal,1 Minodora Totoiu,1 Frank Cloutier,1 Kelly Sharp,1 and Oswald Steward1,2,3

Departments of 1Anatomy and Neurobiology, 2Neurobiology and Behavior, and 3Neurosurgery, Reeve-Irvine Research Center, College of Medicine, University of California at Irvine, Irvine, California 92697-4292

Demyelination contributes to loss of function after spinal cord injury, and thus a potential therapeutic strategy involves replacing myelin-forming cells. Here, we show that transplantation of human embryonic stem cell (hESC)-derived oligodendrocyte progenitor cells (OPCs) into adult rat spinal cord injuries enhances remyelination and promotes improvement of motor function. OPCs were injected 7 d or 10 months after injury. In both cases, transplanted cells survived, redistributed over short distances, and differentiated into oligodendrocytes. Animals that received OPCs 7 d after injury exhibited enhanced remyelination and substantially improved locomotor ability. In contrast, when OPCs were transplanted 10 months after injury, there was no enhanced remyelination or locomotor recovery. These studies document the feasibility of predifferentiating hESCs into functional OPCs and demonstrate their therapeutic potential at early time points after spinal cord injury.

Pretty much the only study out there right now, but has led to a human trial study this summer:

The trials will involve eight to 10 patients who are completely paralyzed below the third to tenth vertebra, and who sustained their spinal cord injury within seven to 14 days. The tests will use stem cells cultured from embryos left over in fertility clinics, which otherwise would have been discarded.

Using the stem cells, researchers have developed cells called oligodendrocytes, which are precursors to nerve cells and which produce a protective layer around nerve cells known as myelin. Researchers will inject these nerve cells directly into the part of the spine where the injury occurred.

Why don't you reserve judgement about Adult vs Embryonic until this study is over? Then we can revisit which is better, but Embryonic clearly has shown to be promising even if it is behind Adult due to political/religious cockblocks.
Actually I was aware of that study and the approved trial. But thanks for pointing that out anyway. I believe that the reason embryonic research has significantly lagged adult stem cell research is more a matter of technology restraints rather than any political or religious roadblocks. But, I'm sure most here would like to believe the latter.

Reserve judgment? I'm judging the benefits of adult vs. embryonic based on what we know today. I NEVER said that embryonic breakthoughs were not possible in the future. All I did was point to the facts as they stand today and I get people coming out of the woodwork with their panties all in a bunch. Does this information pose some kind of threat? It sure looks that way.
 
Dec 10, 2005
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Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Let's take this a step further:
How many adult stem cell treatments have cured people? The answer is many. How many embryonic stem cell treatments have cured people? The answer is zero.

Are you stupid?

You cannot make blind statements like that without actually doing research into the area.
Please answer the questions and show us all how smart you are and how stupid I am. Is that asking too much?

The answer to the question is not "Embryonic stem cells haven't led to any cures, therefore we should stop research in that area entirely."

The answer is: "embryonic stem cells haven't led to any cures YET because we don't know enough about them and further research is needed in the field."
 
Nov 30, 2006
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Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Let's take this a step further:
How many adult stem cell treatments have cured people? The answer is many. How many embryonic stem cell treatments have cured people? The answer is zero.

Are you stupid?

You cannot make blind statements like that without actually doing research into the area.
Please answer the questions and show us all how smart you are and how stupid I am. Is that asking too much?

The answer to the question is not "Embryonic stem cells haven't led to any cures, therefore we should stop research in that area entirely."

The answer is: "embryonic stem cells haven't led to any cures YET because we don't know enough about them and further research is needed in the field."
Now look at what you've done here...you changed the question. My question was very clear and very simple. Your 'answer' reflects a much different question.

I NEVER said that the answer was: "Embryonic stem cells haven't led to any cures, therefore we should stop research in that area entirely." Wow...not even I'm that stupid....lol. If there's any valid reason to stop embryonic research at this time...it would be based on ethical considerations...it would not be based on the fact that we haven't seen any "cures" to date. (Lol...now I'm paranoid about using the word 'cures'.) But we're way past the point as a secular society aren't we.

BTW...I agree with 'your' answer to 'your' question. Thanks for enlightening me o wise one.
 
Dec 10, 2005
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Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
snip

You're arguing your ethical concerns but backing them up with the "no cures from embryonic stem cells" claim.

And you never answered my other question:

If you don't think embryos should be made outside of people to begin with, what do you think of in vitro fetrilization for couples having a hard time conceiving? Because that's where these stem-cell embryos come from - the excess that comes from these procedures.

What makes an embryo, something with under 25 cells, more sacred than a mouse or a cow, which we routinely kill in the pursuit of science or to feed ourselves? At least the mouse or the cow can support themselves in the wild and have some level of brain function. The embryo is not self-sufficient and has about the brain power of a soap dish.
 

misle

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2000
3,371
0
76
Originally posted by: Robor
I'll never understand the reason behind defending the 'rights' of embryos that were likely to end up in the trash bin with the rest of the medical waste. This decision is long overdue. It's a shame we can't get back the 8 years of research that was lost.

According to this article, there was more research done on Embryonic Stem Cells because on the restriction of Federal Funds.

http://www.reason.com/news/show/118069.html

Instead, the research restrictions?real and proposed?provoked a strong pushback by researchers and eventually the public. States began big time funding of embryonic stem cell research, e.g., $3 billion in California and $270 million in New Jersey. And the floodgates of private funding opened, showering hundreds of millions on stem cell researchers. It is highly probable that far more embryos have been used for stem cell research than would have been the case had President Bush not imposed his restrictions. How's that for irony!
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
76
Originally posted by: misle
Originally posted by: Robor
I'll never understand the reason behind defending the 'rights' of embryos that were likely to end up in the trash bin with the rest of the medical waste. This decision is long overdue. It's a shame we can't get back the 8 years of research that was lost.

According to this article, there was more research done on Embryonic Stem Cells because on the restriction of Federal Funds.

http://www.reason.com/news/show/118069.html

Instead, the research restrictions?real and proposed?provoked a strong pushback by researchers and eventually the public. States began big time funding of embryonic stem cell research, e.g., $3 billion in California and $270 million in New Jersey. And the floodgates of private funding opened, showering hundreds of millions on stem cell researchers. It is highly probable that far more embryos have been used for stem cell research than would have been the case had President Bush not imposed his restrictions. How's that for irony!

If that's the case good, good for them. Keep in mind those that did so and accepted federal funds had to keep one separate from the other due to the restrictions (a complaint mentioned earlier).
 
Nov 30, 2006
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Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
snip

You're arguing your ethical concerns but backing them up with the "no cures from embryonic stem cells" claim.

And you never answered my other question:

If you don't think embryos should be made outside of people to begin with, what do you think of in vitro fetrilization for couples having a hard time conceiving? Because that's where these stem-cell embryos come from - the excess that comes from these procedures.

What makes an embryo, something with under 25 cells, more sacred than a mouse or a cow, which we routinely kill in the pursuit of science or to feed ourselves? At least the mouse or the cow can support themselves in the wild and have some level of brain function. The embryo is not self-sufficient and has about the brain power of a soap dish.
Although I freely admit I'm opposed to the harvesting of stem cells from human embryos?I've not made any direct ethical arguments here so far in this thread (that changes in the next paragraph). I'm just pointing to the facts as they currently stand and leaving any interpretation of those facts to you. On a positive note, I understand that there's research underway where stem cells are created using the patient's cells?then these 'created' stem cells are reintroduced back into their bloodstream. They believe that this will decrease immune system rejection and would eliminate the need to harvest and destroy human embryos. Hopefully someday this particular ethical issue may become mote.

I never answered your other question because I thought I'd already answered it. Let me try to be a little more clear on this for you...I'm opposed to the willful destruction of human embryos for any purpose. It's very clear to me that you have a different definition of life than I do. Some say life begins at conception, some say at some level of brain function, some say 6 weeks, some say 8 months or whatever, and some even say that life doesn't begin until the baby is fully delivered?therefore rationalizing their cold-blooded killing of a child by sucking it's brains out when it is partial outside the womb for the sole purpose of harvesting their body parts.

Now tell me?and please think about this for more than 2 seconds...what makes you so right and me so wrong?
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
76
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
snip

You're arguing your ethical concerns but backing them up with the "no cures from embryonic stem cells" claim.

And you never answered my other question:

If you don't think embryos should be made outside of people to begin with, what do you think of in vitro fetrilization for couples having a hard time conceiving? Because that's where these stem-cell embryos come from - the excess that comes from these procedures.

What makes an embryo, something with under 25 cells, more sacred than a mouse or a cow, which we routinely kill in the pursuit of science or to feed ourselves? At least the mouse or the cow can support themselves in the wild and have some level of brain function. The embryo is not self-sufficient and has about the brain power of a soap dish.
Although I freely admit I'm opposed to the harvesting of stem cells from human embryos?I've not made any direct ethical arguments here so far in this thread (that changes in the next paragraph). I'm just pointing to the facts as they currently stand and leaving any interpretation of those facts to you. On a positive note, I understand that there's research underway where stem cells are created using the patient's cells?then these 'created' stem cells are reintroduced back into their bloodstream. They believe that this will decrease immune system rejection and would eliminate the need to harvest and destroy human embryos. Hopefully someday this particular ethical issue may become mote.

I never answered your other question because I thought I'd already answered it. Let me try to be a little more clear on this for you...I'm opposed to the willful destruction of human embryos for any purpose. It's very clear to me that you have a different definition of life than I do. Some say life begins at conception, some say at some level of brain function, some say 6 weeks, some say 8 months or whatever, and some even say that life doesn't begin until the baby is fully delivered?therefore rationalizing their cold-blooded killing of a child by sucking it's brains out when it is partial outside the womb for the sole purpose of harvesting their body parts.

Now tell me?and please think about this for more than 2 seconds...what makes you so right and me so wrong?

That's great and all but IMO there's a big difference between a cluster of cells and partial birth abortion. That's something for another thread.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
snip

You're arguing your ethical concerns but backing them up with the "no cures from embryonic stem cells" claim.

And you never answered my other question:

If you don't think embryos should be made outside of people to begin with, what do you think of in vitro fetrilization for couples having a hard time conceiving? Because that's where these stem-cell embryos come from - the excess that comes from these procedures.

What makes an embryo, something with under 25 cells, more sacred than a mouse or a cow, which we routinely kill in the pursuit of science or to feed ourselves? At least the mouse or the cow can support themselves in the wild and have some level of brain function. The embryo is not self-sufficient and has about the brain power of a soap dish.
Although I freely admit I'm opposed to the harvesting of stem cells from human embryos?I've not made any direct ethical arguments here so far in this thread (that changes in the next paragraph). I'm just pointing to the facts as they currently stand and leaving any interpretation of those facts to you. On a positive note, I understand that there's research underway where stem cells are created using the patient's cells?then these 'created' stem cells are reintroduced back into their bloodstream. They believe that this will decrease immune system rejection and would eliminate the need to harvest and destroy human embryos. Hopefully someday this particular ethical issue may become mote.

I never answered your other question because I thought I'd already answered it. Let me try to be a little more clear on this for you...I'm opposed to the willful destruction of human embryos for any purpose. It's very clear to me that you have a different definition of life than I do. Some say life begins at conception, some say at some level of brain function, some say 6 weeks, some say 8 months or whatever, and some even say that life doesn't begin until the baby is fully delivered?therefore rationalizing their cold-blooded killing of a child by sucking it's brains out when it is partial outside the womb for the sole purpose of harvesting their body parts.

Now tell me?and please think about this for more than 2 seconds...what makes you so right and me so wrong?

That's great and all but IMO there's a big difference between a cluster of cells and partial birth abortion. That's something for another thread.
Of course there is...you totally miss the point...and why am I not surprised. :roll:
 

abj13

Golden Member
Jan 27, 2005
1,071
902
136
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

I used the term "cure" loosely and you jump all over that...okay. Perhaps I should have used the term "effective treatments"...isn't the semantics game fun. Personally I think you're being anal on this point, but hey...that's your perogative.

Yawn. You got caught for overstating the utility of adult stem cell treatments. Man up to it. Anybody who is truly informed about stem cells and the related science wouldn't be making the dumb statements you've already have. Its akin to somebody claiming they can speak spanish in an interview, but when pressed, they crumple and fold like you have.

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
There are many FDA approved treatments listed in Prentice's paper and I never said that all treatments listed were FDA approved and neither did he.

How many FDA-approved adult stem cell treatments have been approved? The answer is many. How many FDA-approved embryonic stem cell treatments have been approved? The answer is zero.

There are 9. Talking about the other 56+ treatments in your link is utterly misleading and demonstrates that you don't actually understand the reality of the situation. If you really did know about adult stem cells, you would have started talking about those nine conditions and not posting some badly flawed list.

What is more telling is that you have yet to explain the mechanism of those 9 FDA approved treatments. The entire goal of embryonic stem cell research is to determine methodologies to promote selective differentiation of the embryonic stem cells into a specific cell type for treatment. How many of those adult stem cell treatments actually achieve this goal? How many are simply a shell game, where the hemopoetic stem cells are removed and returned to allow for high dose chemotherapy? How many of those treatments involve allogenic bone marrow transplantation?

These are the true differences concerning adult versus embryonic stem cells. How many of the actual FDA approved treatments involve differentiation techniques?

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Let's take this a step further:
How many adult stem cell treatments have cured people? The answer is many. How many embryonic stem cell treatments have cured people? The answer is zero.

How many adult stem cell treatments involve the actual science debated between adult and embryonic stem cells, and do not simply consist of moving cells around allowing for chemotherapy? There's a reason why you purposely ignored these questions from my previous post, you don't know because you don't understand the actual mechanisms of the treatments.

Let's also examine the time course. When was the first BMT? 1968. When was the first embryonic stem cells isolated from humans? 1998. That's 30+ years, which in the medical world, is a tremendous amount of time. If you are going to jump up and down trying to make distinctions between adult and embryonic stem cells, you better also acknowledge that the outcomes from adult stem cells do not even utilize the proposed mechanisms for embryonic stem cells.

Its an apples to oranges comparison.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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Originally posted by: abj13
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

I used the term "cure" loosely and you jump all over that...okay. Perhaps I should have used the term "effective treatments"...isn't the semantics game fun. Personally I think you're being anal on this point, but hey...that's your perogative.

Yawn. You got caught for overstating the utility of adult stem cell treatments. Man up to it. Anybody who is truly informed about stem cells and the related science wouldn't be making the dumb statements you've already have. Its akin to somebody claiming they can speak spanish in an interview, but when pressed, they crumple and fold like you have.

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
There are many FDA approved treatments listed in Prentice's paper and I never said that all treatments listed were FDA approved and neither did he.

How many FDA-approved adult stem cell treatments have been approved? The answer is many. How many FDA-approved embryonic stem cell treatments have been approved? The answer is zero.

There are 9. Talking about the other 56+ treatments in your link is utterly misleading and demonstrates that you don't actually understand the reality of the situation. If you really did know about adult stem cells, you would have started talking about those nine conditions and not posting some badly flawed list.

What is more telling is that you have yet to explain the mechanism of those 9 FDA approved treatments. The entire goal of embryonic stem cell research is to determine methodologies to promote selective differentiation of the embryonic stem cells into a specific cell type for treatment. How many of those adult stem cell treatments actually achieve this goal? How many are simply a shell game, where the hemopoetic stem cells are removed and returned to allow for high dose chemotherapy? How many of those treatments involve allogenic bone marrow transplantation?

These are the true differences concerning adult versus embryonic stem cells. How many of the actual FDA approved treatments involve differentiation techniques?

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Let's take this a step further:
How many adult stem cell treatments have cured people? The answer is many. How many embryonic stem cell treatments have cured people? The answer is zero.

How many adult stem cell treatments involve the actual science debated between adult and embryonic stem cells, and do not simply consist of moving cells around allowing for chemotherapy? There's a reason why you purposely ignored these questions from my previous post, you don't know because you don't understand the actual mechanisms of the treatments.

Let's also examine the time course. When was the first BMT? 1968. When was the first embryonic stem cells isolated from humans? 1998. That's 30+ years, which in the medical world, is a tremendous amount of time. If you are going to jump up and down trying to make distinctions between adult and embryonic stem cells, you better also acknowledge that the outcomes from adult stem cells do not even utilize the proposed mechanisms for embryonic stem cells.

Its an apples to oranges comparison.
By merely pointing to the fact that adult stem cell treatments have been proven effective and have cured people, you get your panties in a bunch and say I'm overstating the utility of adult stem cell treatments.

Adult stem cell treatments have been found to be effective in many areas: brain damage, cancer, heart damage, Haematopoiesis (blood cell formation), spinal cord injuries, baldness, blindness and vision impairment, ALS (Lou Gehrig's Disease), Crohn's disease, neural and behavioral birth defects, etc. etc. The Chinese routinely use adult stem cells to treat many maladies including Multiple Sclerosis and Parkinson's disease. Ask Macie Morse if she thinks I'm overstating the benefits of adult stem cell treatments. Dude?if cannot see this point...you're completely mental. It's become painfully obvious that you're not capable of a rational discussion on this subject.
 

abj13

Golden Member
Jan 27, 2005
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Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
By merely pointing to the fact that adult stem cell treatments have been proven effective and have cured people, you get your panties in a bunch and say I'm overstating the utility of adult stem cell treatments.

Hilarious. The amount of backtracking and evasion you've done in the past couple of posts is incredible. You start out by posting an obviously flawed list, that anyone with any bit of knowledge about the adult versus embryonic debate would never post. Then, you distance yourself from that list, and try to excuse yourself by changing your language to bit your own semantical version of the shell game, somehow claiming you originally meant only to refer to 9 treatments. And now, instead of manning up to it, you try to defect blame by suggesting that people shouldn't point out your ignorant posts on the subject? That's fine, if that's all you have to offer. Its actually fun seeing somebody trip over subjects they aren't well versed in, and are googling up information to sound informed.

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Adult stem cell treatments have been found to be effective in many areas: brain damage, cancer, heart damage, Haematopoiesis (blood cell formation), spinal cord injuries, baldness, blindness and vision impairment, ALS (Lou Gehrig's Disease), Crohn's disease, neural and behavioral birth defects, etc. etc.

So now your sources are a erroneous list and wikipedia? Come on. I thought you actually understood the situation of adult and embryonic stem cells.

Again, you still haven't answered my questions of how the vast majority of current adult stem cell treatments work. What is this, the third time now you've dodged those questions? Since you like wikipedia so much, go ahead and use it. Seriously, go to wikipedia, and enter in bone marrow transplantation. How do those treatments work?

If you are really here for a rational discussion, these are central points of understanding the adult versus embryonic stem cell debate. The fact that you keep on dodging them shows how you don't want a rational discussion, since you can't google up information fast enough to sound informed.

One final series of questions. What percentage of the time from the 1960's involved funding restrictions placed on adult stem cell treatments? What percentage of the time from 1998 when the first human embryonic stem cell was isolated, was there funding restrictions on embryonic stem cells? Again, pointing out the successes of adult versus embryonic stem cells is a completely apples to oranges comparison. Any person who desires rationale discussion would easily acknowledge the truth behind the differences.
 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
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I'm all on board with Obama on this one. I don't fully understand the science behind it all, but it's not murder IMHO.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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Originally posted by: abj13
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
By merely pointing to the fact that adult stem cell treatments have been proven effective and have cured people, you get your panties in a bunch and say I'm overstating the utility of adult stem cell treatments.

Hilarious. The amount of backtracking and evasion you've done in the past couple of posts is incredible. You start out by posting an obviously flawed list, that anyone with any bit of knowledge about the adult versus embryonic debate would never post. Then, you distance yourself from that list, and try to excuse yourself by changing your language to bit your own semantical version of the shell game, somehow claiming you originally meant only to refer to 9 treatments. And now, instead of manning up to it, you try to defect blame by suggesting that people shouldn't point out your ignorant posts on the subject? That's fine, if that's all you have to offer. Its actually fun seeing somebody trip over subjects they aren't well versed in, and are googling up information to sound informed.

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Adult stem cell treatments have been found to be effective in many areas: brain damage, cancer, heart damage, Haematopoiesis (blood cell formation), spinal cord injuries, baldness, blindness and vision impairment, ALS (Lou Gehrig's Disease), Crohn's disease, neural and behavioral birth defects, etc. etc.

So now your sources are a erroneous list and wikipedia? Come on. I thought you actually understood the situation of adult and embryonic stem cells.

Again, you still haven't answered my questions of how the vast majority of current adult stem cell treatments work. What is this, the third time now you've dodged those questions? Since you like wikipedia so much, go ahead and use it. Seriously, go to wikipedia, and enter in bone marrow transplantation. How do those treatments work?

If you are really here for a rational discussion, these are central points of understanding the adult versus embryonic stem cell debate. The fact that you keep on dodging them shows how you don't want a rational discussion, since you can't google up information fast enough to sound informed.

One final series of questions. What percentage of the time from the 1960's involved funding restrictions placed on adult stem cell treatments? What percentage of the time from 1998 when the first human embryonic stem cell was isolated, was there funding restrictions on embryonic stem cells? Again, pointing out the successes of adult versus embryonic stem cells is a completely apples to oranges comparison. Any person who desires rationale discussion would easily acknowledge the truth behind the differences.
Dude, you have some serious reading comprehesion issues. I used the word "many". I never claimed that I originally meant to say 9 treatments instead of 65 or whatever number you want to pick out of the air. Also, I never made claims regarding the number of FDA approved treatments available in 2004 or now for that matter. The Prentice study was used as an example to show that there were "many" adult stem cell treatments with very positive results. The Wikipedia information I linked also reinforces this point. Do you need help understanding the definition of the word "many"?

You make up shit I never said, and then argue against it. WTF is it with you? You bring up some interesting points and I'm sure you're probably much more well versed in the subject than I am. But shit?just trying to get to any common starting point for discussion with you is impossible.
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
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Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Teen Returns From China With Ability To See

A teenager from Wellington knows firsthand what stem cells can do.

Adult stem cells.

Yep, but you must have missed this study:
Text

Human Embryonic Stem Cell-Derived Oligodendrocyte Progenitor Cell Transplants Remyelinate and Restore Locomotion after Spinal Cord Injury

Hans S. Keirstead,1 Gabriel Nistor,1 Giovanna Bernal,1 Minodora Totoiu,1 Frank Cloutier,1 Kelly Sharp,1 and Oswald Steward1,2,3

Departments of 1Anatomy and Neurobiology, 2Neurobiology and Behavior, and 3Neurosurgery, Reeve-Irvine Research Center, College of Medicine, University of California at Irvine, Irvine, California 92697-4292

Demyelination contributes to loss of function after spinal cord injury, and thus a potential therapeutic strategy involves replacing myelin-forming cells. Here, we show that transplantation of human embryonic stem cell (hESC)-derived oligodendrocyte progenitor cells (OPCs) into adult rat spinal cord injuries enhances remyelination and promotes improvement of motor function. OPCs were injected 7 d or 10 months after injury. In both cases, transplanted cells survived, redistributed over short distances, and differentiated into oligodendrocytes. Animals that received OPCs 7 d after injury exhibited enhanced remyelination and substantially improved locomotor ability. In contrast, when OPCs were transplanted 10 months after injury, there was no enhanced remyelination or locomotor recovery. These studies document the feasibility of predifferentiating hESCs into functional OPCs and demonstrate their therapeutic potential at early time points after spinal cord injury.

Pretty much the only study out there right now, but has led to a human trial study this summer:

The trials will involve eight to 10 patients who are completely paralyzed below the third to tenth vertebra, and who sustained their spinal cord injury within seven to 14 days. The tests will use stem cells cultured from embryos left over in fertility clinics, which otherwise would have been discarded.

Using the stem cells, researchers have developed cells called oligodendrocytes, which are precursors to nerve cells and which produce a protective layer around nerve cells known as myelin. Researchers will inject these nerve cells directly into the part of the spine where the injury occurred.

Why don't you reserve judgement about Adult vs Embryonic until this study is over? Then we can revisit which is better, but Embryonic clearly has shown to be promising even if it is behind Adult due to political/religious cockblocks.
Actually I was aware of that study and the approved trial. But thanks for pointing that out anyway. I believe that the reason embryonic research has significantly lagged adult stem cell research is more a matter of technology restraints rather than any political or religious roadblocks. But, I'm sure most here would like to believe the latter.

Reserve judgment? I'm judging the benefits of adult vs. embryonic based on what we know today. I NEVER said that embryonic breakthoughs were not possible in the future. All I did was point to the facts as they stand today and I get people coming out of the woodwork with their panties all in a bunch. Does this information pose some kind of threat? It sure looks that way.

Wow, defensive much? I'm glad that you agree embry has lagged in research and that breakthroughs are possible. That study will hopefully help paralyzed people walk again. :thumbsup: