Sound cards...........

[Asmo242]

Interesting thread...

I've been meddling with PC audio/hifi for many years, and I've owned just about every soundcard since the adlib

Anyways... the chaintech is a great card, but remember its high quality settings are for 2 channel output ONLY. The 5.1 output is of lower quality, I would get the audigy 2 ZS if you plan to use your klipsch 5.1 promedias.

I own the E-MU 1212m, and I only use 2 channel amp/bookshelves hooked up to my system, and yes I do game (referring to point made about nobody gaming in 2 channel anymore) I normally use my senns for gaming actually, I prefer headphones for gaming, so I find my emu 1212m perfect for my needs.

But again, if you want to get the best multi channel quality out of your klipsch speakers, go with the audigy 2 ZS, I would only consider the chaintech as a cheap / great quality 2 channel card for music (ie headphones), and have both cards in your system.

As far as mp3s vs lossless original cds, that is obvious, lossless is the way to go these days with the price on large hard drives very cheap, lossless is a perfect way to backup all of your CDs into a format that you can decompress back to the original WAV file and burn it to CD or encode it in a different manner down the road, its the best way to digitally store your music collection.

Honestly, I doubt you will be able to notice the difference between a well ripped mp3 vs a lossless file on any pc speakers made today.

cheers.

 

[Operandi]

Originally posted by: Cerb

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Imyourzero

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: virtualgames0
Get the chaintech AV-710 if you want some nice MP3 quality. It will sound much better than the Audigy, and it only costs $21.
Onboard may or may not sound fine depending on the DAC it uses. Most times it will use a bad DAC. Occaisionally you'll get a good one such as crystal or soundmax(analog devices)

:roll:

Why are you rolling your eyes? The Chaintech blows away the Audigy cards in terms of music quality. The Audigy/Audigy 2 are no doubt better gaming cards but the AV-710 is a few steps up for music. Don't let its price fool you. It is capable of bit perfect audio playback (unlike the Audigy cards) and its Wolfson DAC is better than what Creative uses on their gaming cards. The Creative E-MU 0404 and 1212m are even better than the AV-710 for music but they're nowhere near the price/performance ratio of the Chaintech, plus they are professional/studio music cards and not made for gaming. At least you can game with the AV-710; it's just that you'll lose EAX and it'll sap a few more CPU cycles than an Audigy.

Easy there turbo. I was rolling my eyes because he was saying that you'll notice a big difference in your MP3s. No one in pursuit of top notch music is going to be using MP3s. That's already been covered in this thread.

Er, I can only ABX two songs out of my collection using LAME 3.96.1 w/ --alt-preset extreme. Two songs. I'm now going lossless for important albums, but I think you underestimate LAME.

I also disagree that the Chaintech will be 'much better'. Better, sure, and a fantastic value without argument, but the Audigy 2 ZS does sound pretty good. You may want to use software resampling for music, though.

Out of curiosity which two songs would they be?

 

[Operandi]

Originally posted by: oldfart

Originally posted by: Operandi

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Operandi
MP3's are fine...... it all depends on how you encode them, obviously 128 isn't going to sound the best. I have all my CD's encoded using high quality LAME VBR (259k average), so far nobody has been able to tell the difference, this is on very high quality gear.

What high quality gear do you speak of?

I did testing a bunch of stuff.... My setup consisting of a classic pair of DCM Time Windows, Adcom amp and pre-amp, and a Sony ES cd player.

A friend of mine is an audio engineering major at Michigan Tech so I had the opportunity to mess with all of their project speakers. They had some pretty incredible stuff there, some of the best speakers I've ever heard (some not), we also blew a lot of drivers for fun late at night .

Dont see many people with DCM speakers. I have a pair of DCM Time Frame 400s. Have had them for a long time. They still sound great although I wish I would have gone with the TF 600s

Yeah.... DCM isn't really the company they once were. They still make good speakers from what I understand, just more traditional designs?. nothing like the Time Windows.

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: Operandi(snip)
Out of curiosity which two songs would they be?

EL&P - Jerusalem
EL&P - Karn Evil 2nd Impression
On my PC, they are transparent (Philips Aurilium, Koss KSC50) with --alt-preset extreme. Those two and Zappa's Cosmik Debris are the only three I've been able to ABX standard from extreme, as well. On my father's stereo (decent speakers, nice but old Denon reciever), I can ABX those two EL&P songs, even w/ a cheap Yamaha GX as the sound card going to the reciever (LAME --alt-preset extreme vs. FLAC, Foobar2000 ABX comparator).

 

[imported_KuJaX]

ohh really? the AV-710 only is quality for 2 output? I have klipsch 4.1

 

[Asmo242]

Yes, the AV-710 in high-res mode is 2 channel only analoge output.

And its the high-res output mode quality that is praised.

 

[Algere]

P.S. It's the "Alt Out" connector next to the digital out FWIW ;-)

 

[imported_KuJaX]

Just bought a SOUND BLASTER| AUDIGY 2 ZS PCI

 

[Algere]

Like it? Hate it?

 

[proxopspete]

Originally posted by: oldfart
Cool. Could you offer up optimal setup/config for Foobar2K and the ZS?

Check here @ Fix-IT.org. Zemo is very well-known on audio stuff as a very reliable guy... I used it myself.

 

[yhelothar]

Originally posted by: Brian48

Originally posted by: Imyourzero

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: virtualgames0
Get the chaintech AV-710 if you want some nice MP3 quality. It will sound much better than the Audigy, and it only costs $21.
Onboard may or may not sound fine depending on the DAC it uses. Most times it will use a bad DAC. Occaisionally you'll get a good one such as crystal or soundmax(analog devices)

:roll:

Why are you rolling your eyes? The Chaintech blows away the Audigy cards in terms of music quality. The Audigy/Audigy 2 are no doubt better gaming cards but the AV-710 is a few steps up for music. Don't let its price fool you. It is capable of bit perfect audio playback (unlike the Audigy cards) and its Wolfson DAC is better than what Creative uses on their gaming cards. The Creative E-MU 0404 and 1212m are even better than the AV-710 for music but they're nowhere near the price/performance ratio of the Chaintech, plus they are professional/studio music cards and not made for gaming. At least you can game with the AV-710; it's just that you'll lose EAX and it'll sap a few more CPU cycles than an Audigy.

He's rolling his eyes because the BS metering starting to tilt again. The Audigy and Audigy2 are DISTINCTLY different when it comes to the quality of music playback. As many of us pointed out, the A2 began incorporating very high quality DACs and well as other improvements. The AV-710 may be better than the original Audigy when it comes to overall music playback, but it is NOT superior to the A2. :roll:

Have you even read the specs for both the audigy2 and the chaintech av710? :roll:
Audigy2's DAC has an SNR of <103dB
Chaintech AV-710 DAC has an SNR of <106dB
Combine that up with the fac that the Chaintech does not have to resample the sound, the Chaintech DOES sound better than the Audigy2.
Visit HeadFi Forums, and you will see that many people have done blind tests and found that the Chaintech AV710 does sound better than the Audigy2.
:roll:

 

[Algere]

Not a correct comparison there

Your comparing the AV-710's DAC specs against I don't know what since Creative lists the Audigy 2 with having a SNR of 106dB, while the ZS a SNR of 108dB.

If apples to apples based on DAC specs then it should be:
AV-710's Wolfson WM8728 DAC versus the Audigy 2/ZS's Cirrus Logic CS4382 DAC.

&amp; AFAIK I've never seen the AV-710's SNR sound card specs (non-DAC/VIA codec) listed so I can't compare the AV-710's sound card specs with the Audigy 2/ZS's.

As for which sounds better, it's not clearcut like comparing benchmarks. Maybe the Audigy 2 line sounds better @ specific audio characteristics than the AV-710 &amp; vice versa or that not everyone's ears are created the same (other factors to consider; audio gear and types of music/sound one listens to).

 

[yhelothar]

hmmm I guess I remembered wrong about the Audgy2 SNR.
There seems to be a concensus on the headfi forums that the chaintech sounds better than the audigy2 though.
A lot of people on there actually use both, chaintech for music and audigy2 for games.

 

[Brian48]

Originally posted by: virtualgames0
hmmm I guess I remembered wrong about the Audgy2 SNR.
There seems to be a concensus on the headfi forums that the chaintech sounds better than the audigy2 though.
A lot of people on there actually use both, chaintech for music and audigy2 for games.

The consensus on a lot these elitist "audiophile" boards is that even POS on-board is better than anything the evil empire of Creative puts out. :roll: I think alot of these people prefer the Chaintech only because they hate Creative.

As I said before, I've had the Chaintech as well as the identical MD Entertainer 7.1. Admittedly, I play games and watch movies more than I listen to music, but as far as I can make out, the A2 sounds just as good if not better through my Klipsch 4.1. Sure, you have the issue of resampling with analog playback, but I personally think the degradation in sound is an exageration. Once again, I admit I'm more of gamer than a music listener. Also, virtually every consumer level sound card that doesn't have SPDIF does this as well. I don't have my Chaintech anymore, but I believe even it does 48khz when using analog (I know the clones like the Catalina in fact do this). Just be clear, this is not to be said that I don't appreciate clarity in my audio. Up until the A2, my card of choice was the TBSC.

 

[Algere]

Originally posted by: Brian48
Also, virtually every consumer level sound card that doesn't have SPDIF does this as well. I don't have my Chaintech anymore, but I believe even it does 48khz when using analog (I know the clones like the Catalina in fact do this).

What about under ASIO or Kernel Streaming to bypass Window's Kmixer (48 KHz resampling)?

I can't say the Audigy 2 is free of resampling since it's sound processor resamples internally (hardware) regardless if under ASIO/Kernel Streaming support. To say that cards based on the Envy24 series sound processor (e.g. the Catalina) resamples to 48 KHz from say 44KHz (CD) contradicts from what I've heard/read about the Envy24's.

 

[Algere]

Originally posted by: virtualgames0
hmmm I guess I remembered wrong about the Audgy2 SNR.
There seems to be a concensus on the headfi forums that the chaintech sounds better than the audigy2 though.
A lot of people on there actually use both, chaintech for music and audigy2 for games.

Don't I know it (Frequent Head-Fi visitor here among other places)

 

[Brian48]

Originally posted by: Algere

Originally posted by: Brian48
Also, virtually every consumer level sound card that doesn't have SPDIF does this as well. I don't have my Chaintech anymore, but I believe even it does 48khz when using analog (I know the clones like the Catalina in fact do this).

What about under ASIO or Kernel Streaming to bypass Window's Kmixer (48 KHz resampling)?

I can't say the Audigy 2 is free of resampling since it's sound processor resamples internally (hardware) regardless if under ASIO/Kernel Streaming support. To say that cards based on the Envy24 series sound processor (e.g. the Catalina) resamples to 48 KHz from say 44KHz (CD) contradicts from what I've heard/read about the Envy24's.

No, the A2 is not free of resampling, not until the upcoming Audigy3 from my understanding.

And I take back what I said regarding the Chaintech in regards to resampling as I can't confirm it (can't find the article I read awhile back regarding HT-S clones). In any case, my point is that I really don't think the issue is that great unless you're running the audio through a really high-end sound system. All the Envy24HT-S cards I've tried only shine when it comes to 2.1 music playback, and in this regard, it still by no means "blew away" the A2. If this is all you use the PC for, then by all means. Personally, I want more use and flexibility out of my hardware.

 

[Algere]

"No, the A2 is not free of resampling, not until the upcoming Audigy3 from my understanding."
Sure hope so, I'd like to see what Creative can come up with without that limitation.

"All the Envy24HT-S cards I've tried only shine when it comes to 2.1 music playback, and in this regard, it still by no means "blew away" the A2"
Matter of YMMV but neither one was greatly better than the other (personal experience), OTOH comparing the E-MU 0404 to the Audigy 2 ZS is a complete knockout (to anyone that says there's not much improvement to be had/needed in the HTPC consumer audio market). Obviously the 2 are aimed towards different markets.

 

[Imyourzero]

Originally posted by: Algere
"No, the A2 is not free of resampling, not until the upcoming Audigy3 from my understanding."
Sure hope so, I'd like to see what Creative can come up with without that limitation.

"All the Envy24HT-S cards I've tried only shine when it comes to 2.1 music playback, and in this regard, it still by no means "blew away" the A2"
Matter of YMMV but neither one was greatly better than the other (personal experience), OTOH comparing the E-MU 0404 to the Audigy 2 ZS is a complete knockout (to anyone that says there's not much improvement to be had/needed in the HTPC consumer audio market). Obviously the 2 are aimed towards different markets.

Have you had a chance to compare the 1212m to the 0404? I have been very tempted to spring for an 0404, but if the 1212m is in another league then I might have to go for it. But if the 0404 is 90% of the 1212m's sound for 1/2 the cost, I'll just get the 0404 since it would be an improvement over either the AV-710 or the Audigy 2.

 

[Algere]

I haven't had the opportunity to compare/try the 1212M with the 0404. Only reference I can give to the 1212M against the 0404 would be the comparison someone @ Head-Fi said, so take it FWIW.

However I can say that between the M-Audio Revolution 5.1 (which has a better DAC than the 7.1 version and the same with the ESI Juli@) &amp; the E-MU 0404 is that with the 0404 in Doom 3, the sound of the soulcube after making it's final slash against the cyberdemon &amp; before dipping into the fiery pit made me cringe (similar to what scraping of metallic objects against steel cooking pots does to me in RL) while the Revo 5.1 was bearable in that same situation.

 

[Brian48]

The Revo 5.1 has better DACs than the Revo 7.1?

 

[CraigRT]

The only problem I have when I hear people comparing to the Audigy2 is, what are the differences with all the models?

there's like a ZS, and platinum, and all kinds of other A2 models... I really do not know the diifferences at all with them cause I have never researched... is it just bundle/hardware included or are there differences with the chips and quality of the card itself?

 

[Algere]

I believe it's just bundled hardware/software.

e.g. Gamer edition has games, Platinum has the breakout box, etc.

P.S. Not to be confused with e.g. "Audigy 2 Platinum" and "Audigy 2 ZS Platinum" as they're in 2 different families (latter being newer with hardware revisions).

 

[Algere]

Originally posted by: Brian48
The Revo 5.1 has better DACs than the Revo 7.1?

Revolution 5.1's DAC is this &amp; the Revolution 7.1 has 2 DAC's, 1 for 2 channel stereo and the other to take care of the surround channels.