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Sould Linux be harder or easier? Poll

T

tart666

Golden Member
Is it just me or is anyone else sick of how much of a turbo geek you have to be to run linux?

I have seen countless zealots dismissing user friendly distros for the user-friendliness alone. With the attitude "I don't wanna use anything that a Windowz drone can use".

I have had slack for 6 months and I grew really tired of recompiling the kernel just to get SB Live! support. And as a user, do I really have to compile all the soft? case in point: to get the printer driver I need gimp. To get gimp I need gtk. To get gtk I need glib, atk, and pango. All of these have to be compiled with the latest patch of gcc. And in the middle of all this mess something forgets to update the path variables correctly so grk does not find pango even if I KNOW it is installed. this whole mess took about 20 hours of my life with NO return and NO new knowledge useful to me.

I am a USER of the OS, not the developer. why do the developers have mostly the needs of other programmers/ developers in mind and keep dissing the user-friendliness??

So, vote, do you want Linux be easier to use (like Suse, hat, etc.) or Harder to use (like Linux from Scratch, Slack, etc.)

My guess is, if you are a USER, you will pick user-friendliness. But I guess the history will show.

put in your 2 ¢

T
 
When you install Slackware you ask for the experience you had, a lot of Linux users like doing all that, if you don't then don't use Slackware. You have a choice.

As a Debian user I would have just typed 'apt-get install gimp' and it would have installed gimp and all it's dependencies for me, no compiling or thinking at all on my part.

I am a USER of the OS, not the developer. why do the developers have mostly the needs of other programmers/ developers in mind and keep dissing the user-friendliness??
Click to expand...

Because they're developing the OS for their use, until you get involved you can't really b!tch much because you're getting all their work for free. Slackware is non-profit and specifically tries to put a unix-like Linux distro out there, why would you use it if you don't want to get deep into the system?

I am a USER, I USE my Debian installations daily. But I'm also smart enough to fix piddly dependency problems should I ever see them (Debian takes care of them for me 99% of the time). If you're too lazy to fix problems on your own then Linux probably isn't for you.
 
It is easy. I can find packages (BINARY) for just about any software I want to install. Nothinman mentioned apt-get. I use packages in OpenBSD, and Mac OS X's packages on Mac OS X. I used apt-get in Debian when I was using that. When I use RedHat I use .rpms. If you dont like compiling stuff, why the heck did you choose slackware?! Thats one of the strangest things I have ever heard...

If you dont like it, fix it. If you are unwilling to fix it STFU. 🙂
 
I agree with the assessment that Slackware doesn't sound like the best choice for you, tart666. I'm using RedHat myself and appreciate the ease of the package management system.

I don't agree with the sentiments accusing you of laziness and telling you to STFU if you're not going to develop your own solutions. It's perfectly valid to expect development issues to be taken care of and to be able, as a user, to use the OS to get what you need done. (The Perl philosophy comes to mind here.) I don't think it's true that Linux developers have the needs of other Linux developers in mind and don't care about other users. It's not just a toy for the amusement of Linus and his pals. Why do Linux advocates care if big enterprises switch to Linux from some other OS? Do they think anybody will adopt the system if they're told, "You can't get that working? Deal with it!" Yes, it's unfortunate to encounter the sort of arrogance that wants a system to be difficult for the sake of being difficult and exclusive, but that's not the dominant feeling, at least among those with not just self-imagined but actual influence, like companies offering the major distributions.

I think the essential point is a desire to have control over the system. It's frustrating when programs are built with so much stupid "intelligence" that they make all sorts of assumptions about what the user wants, do things unasked-for, and don't let the user change that. (And there are many people ("non-computer-people") who are happy for this to happen.) At the other extreme is systems lacking any sort of high-level (in the sense of high-level programming languages) tools to help automate tasks, requiring the user to get down-and-dirty for everything. What seems ideal to me is a system that makes all those low-level details fully accessible to the user while providing utilities to take care of normal things so that it's not always necessary to get so down-and-dirty. For the majority of Linux users, I would guess, ease of use in the Windows sense is great as long as we reserve just as easy a way to change things.
 
He cant expect anything! Slackware is fairly free. If he wants it "fixed" (read: to be another distribution), he can do it himself. The STFU comment was valid. If he wants something different, he can make it different, although in his case all he would need to do is switch to another distro. I dont want a system to be difficult for the sake of difficulty or elitism, I understood slackware better than I did RedHat or Mandrake. Dont ask me why, I dont. Because I sat there and had to compile my software, and fix dependancy issues, and edit a little code on occassion, I understand linux in general a little bit better. Giving a newbie a system that will let them do something if they want to, but they wont have to wont teach them the ins and outs of the system. And dont give me this "Im a user!" crap, lusers suck.
 
Well, the reason I chose slack was that our local sysadmin adores it. So he told me to get it so it will be easier for him to support it. Later I found out the support was limited to "go away and RTFM" anyway. I putzed around for a while, recompiling the kernel, etc.

What I do not understand, still, why is it impossible for Linux to be as easy as a commercial consumer OS. I am trying to undersand: is there a technical difficulty, or is the developer's majority as bigotted as it appears to be.

I am waiting for a distro with a serious config GUI and the xterm flexibility reserved for special cases. Suse is pretty close, I must say, perhaps the next iteration will be as easy as it should be.

T
 
hat I do not understand, still, why is it impossible for Linux to be as easy as a commercial consumer OS
Click to expand...

Because you skipped the commercial part, buy a copy from RedHat and they'll be happy to support you as a consumer.

I am trying to undersand: is there a technical difficulty, or is the developer's majority as bigotted as it appears to be.
Click to expand...

A large majority of the developers believe it's fine the way it is and are working on lower level things like drivers, suspend to swap, SMP, NUMA, etc. Most of us learned how to use the system, once you learn how to use it it's a great system and works really well for a lot of things. It's just very different from Windows, which makes it seem harder than it is.

I would also say the large majority of us don't install X on servers, so the need for CLI configuration tools is much higher than GUI ones. Something we can ssh in, use from a shell and get out, something that can be easily scripted so we can automate repetitive work.
 
Quote: "the large majority of us don't install X on servers"

So let me understand:

Is this whole "Linux for desktop" movement purely media created? The developers are completely uninterested to compete in the consumer space?

If so, then my hopes for Linux have been grossly misplaced. I was looking forward to an alternative for my desktop OS.

T
 
Is this whole "Linux for desktop" movement purely media created? The developers are completely uninterested to compete in the consumer space?
Click to expand...

Linux is on my desktop, so not it's not totally media created although it's definately fueled by clueless media persons who think Linux is supposed to fight MS to the death when that' was never the intent.

Most of 'the developers' are kernel developers, and most of them are more interested in 'cool' things like 32-way SMP, IBM NUMAQ boxes, VM performance, scheduler performance, the new IDE layer in 2.5, the new block layer in 2.5, etc.

If you want GUI config tools talk to the X team (if that's what you're trying to configure) or the Gnome team, or the KDE team, etc. Linux isn't one big entity, like MS. You can however buy support from RedHat, SuSe, etc and work with them to get whatever it is you want fixed.

I mentioned Linux on servers because you mentioned GUI config tools, I can't think of much on my desktop that hasn't had an options menu or config tool with it.

If so, then my hopes for Linux have been grossly misplaced. I was looking forward to an alternative for my desktop OS.
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Like I said, Debian GNU/Linux runs great on my desktop (has for over 3 years) but you can't expect it to just work for you without any effort, you will have to actually RTFM and learn something.
 
I run a FreeBSD webserver with no GUI, and only two plugs, power and ethernet. I administer the site via ssh only. I have a deep respect for CLI's. I also run FreeBSD on my desktop at work. The beauty of *Nix is the flexibility, IMO.
 
Originally posted by: Nothinman
hat I do not understand, still, why is it impossible for Linux to be as easy as a commercial consumer OS
Click to expand...

Because you skipped the commercial part, buy a copy from RedHat and they'll be happy to support you as a consumer.
Click to expand...

You can get RedHat for free, too, of course, by downloading it. If RedHat's installer and package management system are good enough for you, there you go -- free and easier to use (than Slackware). If you want the added support of the manuals that come with a boxed set in tidy, non-distributed-all-over-the-Internet form, plus RedHat customer support, $50 is still a lot less than you'll pay for a retail copy of Windows.
 
Originally posted by: yakkowarner
Originally posted by: Nothinman
hat I do not understand, still, why is it impossible for Linux to be as easy as a commercial consumer OS
Click to expand...

Because you skipped the commercial part, buy a copy from RedHat and they'll be happy to support you as a consumer.
Click to expand...

You can get RedHat for free, too, of course, by downloading it. If RedHat's installer and package management system are good enough for you, there you go -- free and easier to use (than Slackware). If you want the added support of the manuals that come with a boxed set in tidy, non-distributed-all-over-the-Internet form, plus RedHat customer support, $50 is still a lot less than you'll pay for a retail copy of Windows.
Click to expand...
That's exactly what Nothinman said. If you want support, you can buy a copy of Linux from Suse, RedHat, etc...
 
You want an luser friendly desktop Unix-like OS? Mac OS X is the best choice. Its commercial, partially open source, has plenty of applications, and you rarely *have* to touch the command line. But remember, not using the command line on a unix-like system is like never taking a car out of park. Whats the point?
 
Quote:
If you want support, you can buy a copy of Linux from Suse, RedHat, etc...

I did buy SUSE 8.0 pro after all the crap slack gave me. I have to say the OS itself is quite easy. You almost never HAVE TO use CLI tools, only if you want to.

I am very impressed with nvidia's support, providing drivers in rpm form for all recent major SUSE versions. That is exactly what I was looking for. The only qualms I am still having is a browser and CD burning soft. not quite as stable as it should be, but getting there.

I urge the rest of the "users" of linux to support the "Easy" distros with the nominal fees that they charge for box versions. Perhaps we will get a free browser as good as Opera, and a free CD burning soft as good as nero. That's when I'll switch on my whole LAN.

my 2 ¢

T

PS: looks like the majority of AT readers are users, and lovers of the "easy" approach to linux, very encouraging to me.
 
Linux will never be a truely desktop OS. If you're already comfortable with it in other situations, and you have an awful lot of free time, you'll be able to use it as a desktop system, but for most people (even those of us who admin dozens of linux servers) its just not worth the time/effort to try and get it to do 80% of what MacOS X or WinNT can do right out of the box.
Anyone who works in software development knows the most time consuming and resource intensive part of the project is the end-user testing and the support. Its this "home stretch" of developing and deploying an application that open-source (read:unpaid) developers dont have the time/interest/money for.

If you really want UNIX on your desktop, Mac OS X.

BTW: I find it thourougly amusing that open-source zealots will constanly grandstand about how free software is the only good software, and closed-source is the product of evil, but when it comes to actually using the product if the user has any requests its thier problem, RTFM, STFU, etc.

bart
 
I agree with Buddha Bart on the importance of end-user testing and the pitiable (I'd be more amused if it didn't obstruct progress and lead to so much strife) nature of user-bashing, when open-source software is supposed to work better in the end. I'm one of those open-source advocates (though I find "grandstanding" too strong a term) who tries to keep in mind the importance of progress -- it's not about instantly having a superior product that doesn't and needn't respond to user criticism; rather the opposite is more of the point: it should be quicker to fix what's broken, which includes being quicker to adapt to the needs of users.

I hope his belief that Linux will never truly catch on as a desktop OS is overly cynical. Maybe it's not there yet, but it's made a lot of progress and should continue to do so.
 
BTW: I find it thourougly amusing that open-source zealots will constanly grandstand about how free software is the only good software, and closed-source is the product of evil, but when it comes to actually using the product if the user has any requests its thier problem, RTFM, STFU, etc.
Click to expand...

Open Source software is better than closed software 99% of the time, that doesn't mean it's easier to use and you shouldn't have to read anything to use it properly. Infact one of the biggest problems with closed software is that it's easy to use from the start, but when you want to do 'advanced' things even the docs provided won't help you.

In this particular incident the user chose to use the less user-friendly software and then proceeded to complain when he had to put some effort to get things going. His local sysadmin should foot the majority of the blame here because he offered help but then changed his mind when it came time to deliver, you can't just give a new user slackware and expect no questions.

Nobody in their right mind would recommend slackware to a new user who wasn't ready and willing to spend a few weeks fighting, reading and learning.
 
Originally posted by: tart666
I am very impressed with nvidia's support, providing drivers in rpm form for all recent major SUSE versions. That is exactly what I was looking for. The only qualms I am still having is a browser and CD burning soft. not quite as stable as it should be, but getting there.
Click to expand...

Is the system unstable or the CD burning software?

I just use mkisofs and cdrecord. I have no problems, and I'm running Debian GNU/Linux testing.
For a browser, Mozilla is the best choice, but *is* still quirky.

 
I think Galeon is better than Mozilla on Linux, it uses Gecko for rendering but it uses GTK for the GUI and is just a web browser so it's lighter weight.
 
Nobody in their right mind would recommend slackware to a new user who wasn't ready and willing to spend a few weeks fighting, reading and learning.
Click to expand...

Not-so-long ago, as a Linux newbie, I asked a friend of mine (a veteran GNU/Linux user since 1994) which distro should I use. His reply was that I should not try Debian or Slackware to begin with, and look for something that had a graphical install instead.
That leaves us with a bunch of RPM-based distros to choose from....

Over the past few weeks, I have been contemplating using Debian. Lets' see!
 
Debian or Slack are great once you get the hang of Linux, but as an introduction to Linux they can be quite overwhelming.
 
Mandrake is all right for a *NIX newb so far. It was fairly straightforward until I tried to get the Nvidia Drivers working.... then it kinda went downhill. After 4 hours I think I got them working, though upgrading Xfree86 and updating the config files knocked out X and I had to use the setup CD to redo my X settings, though that somehow made the video drivers work.😕

I do agree that automation of basic tasks within the GUI is very desirable as it will keep new users from freaking out and giving up when the have to manually edit and replace a config file through a CLI when they don't quite understand yet how to navigate through the filesystem and where everything is. Most people who aren't Sysadmins nowadays probably have no clue how to use a CLI(I think thats safe to say about non-techie computer users under 20, which is my age group, we really didn't grow up with a CLI unless we were exposed to computers very young).
 
Originally posted by: aka1nas
Most people who aren't Sysadmins nowadays probably have no clue how to use a CLI(I think thats safe to say about non-techie computer users under 20, which is my age group, we really didn't grow up with a CLI unless we were exposed to computers very young).
Click to expand...
Wow. I'm not much past 20, and I have sad moments when I feel as though I'm getting old. I thought it was interesting to observe at the end of college that, while my classmates and I first started using email heavily, not just as a novelty, with our accounts at school, the younger students had gone through high school with it. Now I'm struck with the realization that computer users not much younger went straight to Windows (or Mac OS) on home systems, never experiencing the joys of DOS. Not that DOS is such a heavy thing; the real introduction to CLIs comes with *nix systems in college, but either way, "kids these days", as comfortable as they may be with computers, still are confined in that comfort to the domain of commercial GUIs unless they're "techies".
 
guis are well and good for downloading porn or browing a forum. For work, there is a the command line. Take away the cli in linux and what do you have? You barely have half of a freaking OS. There cli is where the power is. The notes of those that came before you is the best way to learn. Forget this hand holding crap. Learn to think, learn to read, learn to comprehend and stop expecting people to hand you an answer.

EDIT: And yes, I know to the children on the board this is an unpopular opinion, but dammit ifI have to put up with another "will this piece of software work in RedHat?"or "Im trying SomeDistro v9.2.3.4.2.5.6 beta with kernel v2.5.1, why isnt it acting right?" or "How do I mount a partition?" and then bolding some smartass reply because I told them the answer and it wasnt what they wanted to hear type of question Im going to run over a newbie. I learned by reading the docs and *playing* with the system. This is a pc tweakers forum basically dammit! I know most of you like to play and experiment! What is stopping you from doing it with linux? You have the source, you can tweak to your heart's content! And just so no one gives me that lame ass excuse "Just because you had to learn it the hard way doesnt mean everyone else should have to" I agree. Thats why I am helping write some of the FAQs in the Linux FAQ thread (including a FAQ on nVidia kernel installations even though I have never purchased an nVidia product out of principle. So I am trying to give back to the community that gave me tough to follow out of date documentation on a particular distribution I never touched. I want you newbies to learn something, but it has to start with how to ask a question. Maybe Ill stop answering half assed questions or questions answered in one of the many FAQs we have available (hell almost no one has pmed me or posted a msg letting me know my FAQ definitely works!). Im done, flame away kids and adults a like.
 
I think that having a fully featured CLI is definately a good idea, but having a GUI to get your feet wet in is very nice. I'd rather get acclimated to using the CLI slowly, and having the ability to alt+tab and beg for help on the AT forums while im still learning is a plus. If you get stuck in the CLI and have no clue what to do, you have to restart and login again.(at least I had to cuz I was mucking around with X and my video drivers and couldn't change stuff while I was in the GUI.)
 
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