"Soon we'll have nowhere left to run"

[fallout man]

Originally posted by: wwswimming

Originally posted by: Atheus
Fares Akram is an English speaking journalist living in Gaza with his family. I discovered his blog yesterday. It paints a fascinating picture.

http://faresakram.livejournal.com/

http://www.independent.co.uk/n...my-father-1225793.html

To those who believe all Palestinians are terrorists or hopeless brainwashed terrorist sympathisers; read this and think again. Most of them are ordinary people - good people - trying to live ordinary lives among the chaos. Did this man's elderly father deserve to die in his bed? Did his baby deserve to born in a war zone?

Next time the Israelis drop leaflets warning of the shelling of civilian areas Hamas will head for their bukers and tunnels, while those civilians with money and no responsibilites at home might attempt to cross the border, but where do you suggest Fares Akram goes? What do you suggest he feeds his family?

I'm sure our resident Israel lovers will continue to support the war on Hamas, and rightly so, but can you read this and still believe the Palestinian civilians deserve what they're getting?

yes, the Palestinians are actually people.

Wikipedia on the refugees created when Israel destroyed 400 Palestinian villages in 1948, as part of seizing the land that became Israel in 1948.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus


Palestine Remembered website, a tour of Palestine in 1948. what it was like to live their before the war where the land was stolen. a lot of olive farmers growing olives next to the Mediterranean, like in Greece.

http://www.palestineremembered.com/


interview with a refugee who lives in Daly City, Ca, and left Palestine in 1948 at the age of 17.

http://www.alternet.org/audits...years_ago/?page=entire

What It Was Like Being Forced to Leave Palestine 60 Years Ago


some Israel supporters choose to be blind to the destruction of Palestine.

this puts them in an odd position. they insist that the world pay homage to the Holocaust in Germany, yet are in denial about the innate facts of the creation of the "Palestinian Problem" by Israel. Israel created the Palestinian problem by stealing the Palestinians land.

and feign surprise and shock and horror when the Palestinians' puny army fights back.

That war & theft the Palestinians refer to as Al Nakba. it is their term for Holocaust.

no one denies that Hamas and other groups shoot bombs into civilian areas of Israel & kills dozens of Israeli
civilians during the last 60 years. it's all over the media.

but Israel-supporters are in denial about killing tens of thousands of Palestinian citizens.

Israel supporters insist that it was justified to -
A/ steal the Palestinians land, and
B/ kill the Palestinians because they fight back.

this is similar to the same moral calculus that Hitler used to justify killing Jews. to Hitler, the Jews were mud-bloods, to use the Harry Potter term. To Israel supporters, the Palestinians are mud-bloods.

it's human for people to feel that way, but i thought there was wide-spread agreement that Hitler's choice to act on his racist feelings was a huge moral error.

so how is it not a huge moral error & tragedy for Israel to treat the Palestinians similarly ?


http://wire.antiwar.com/2009/0...counts-house-of-death/

gaza-boy-recounts-house-of-death


Israel has put 1.5 Palestinians in a concentration camp and is using White Phosphorus and DIME, both chemical weapons, on Palestinian civilians.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t...ast/article5470047.ece


why does Israel get a "pass", yet if someone like Hitler had done this, he would be condemned ?

it is because Israel supporters consider the Palestinians to be "mud-bloods", and they consider the theft of their land to be justified.

they want us to remember Hitler's crimes, and to ignor their crimes.

they are joined in this belief by American Christians. as in the bumper sticker that says, "Palestine belongs to Israel, the Bible says so".

I guarantee you that this stuff is falling on deaf ears here. I've given up trying to convince the usual suspects on this board a week ago.

Let me pre-empt the upcoming responses:

- They elected Hamas--they deserve what they get.
- Hamas uses human shields, tough luck!
- Israel gives phone-calls and drops leaflets before they bomb civilians... it's the civilians' own damn fault for not getting out of the way.
- Those ambulances are Hamas troop carriers!
- The hospital had a secret underground Hamas bunker under it!
- You play with fire, you get burned!

For even more hilarious apologist excuses, head over to the Jerusalem Post website, and read the comment sections. There you will find gems like:

- The UN are terrorist collaborators.
- Nuke the UN, and the BBC.
- Push the Palestinians into the sea!

 

[fallout man]

Ignore this--test.

Anti-semitic PROPAGANDA... RAWR!

The BBC's Christian Fraser is the first British journalist to enter Gaza independently since the Israeli offensive began. Israel is continuing to deny foreign journalists unsupervised access to the Strip. He sent this report from Rafah, southern Gaza, which he entered from Egypt.

Nineteen days we had waited to cross into Rafah.

For three weeks we had watched the injured come through the crossing and thunderous explosions on the other side. At last we were being allowed in to report it - independently.

Rafah has been pounded through this conflict. The Israelis are targeting smuggling tunnels that extend beneath the perimeter wall. Around 40,000 people who lived close to it are now homeless.

Five thousand of them are sheltering in three UN schools, so many of them are children.

Frightened children

They were pleased to see me. Pleased to see anyone from the outside world.

"What's your name, what's your name," they scream.

They are sleeping 25 to a classroom. The desks have been piled high in a corner. They share four mattresses and on this day a cabbage for their evening meal.

We met Mahmoud who was carrying his seven-month-old son Mohammed. They are from Shaboura camp. Ten days ago Mahmoud dug his son out of the rubble of his house, miraculously unscathed. Now he hugs him close.

"I tell the children stories at night," he says. "I pull them all close to me, try to calm them. I tell them they are not going to die. That the bombing is all over."

There are fathers all over Gaza working similar distractions.

Our host, Ahmed Adwan, told me that every time a bomb falls near his house, he dances for his three-year-old daughter. She now thinks it is a game.

Waiting it out

But it is no laughing matter. The psychological strain is huge and showing on the faces of the people we meet.

The jets fly over the house continually. No-one sleeps. No-one knows where the next bomb will fall. There is not a moment's peace. Conversation is constantly interrupted by the roar of the Israeli jets overhead.

We have seen their "surgical" air strikes. There is no doubt the Israelis have tried hard to hit their targets accurately. The police station opposite the UN warehouse is now just a crater.

But there are plenty of bomb sites where there is extensive collateral damage. It is no wonder there have been so many civilian casualties. In the house in which we are staying the windows are all left open, in case the pressure from one of the blasts should blow the glass out.

Ahmed smoked 20 cigarettes a day before this conflict started. "Now I smoke two and half packets every day," he said. "I am nervous all the time. I worry for my family."

His friend, Abu Moustafa, was forced to leave his house at the border over two weeks ago. He is now living with relatives.

"I am a refugee twice over," he says. "My father lost his home to the Israelis in 1948. He was from Yebna village. Now we are homeless again.

"My house is still standing but it is damaged.

"They have been bombing the area since the 28th. There were 21 of us in the house that night. I haven't seen my neighbours since. There is no social interaction at the moment.

"It's too dangerous to travel about town so we sit and we wait? and we wait."

Shattered economy

The Palestinians of Rafah tell me the tunnels were their lifeline.

They say very few weapons came under the wall. And now the tunnels are destroyed, they worry the shortages will become more acute.

"There is food but there is a chronic shortage of even the most basic commodities," said Ahmed.

"Wheat flour, sugar, lentils, rice? and prices have rocketed. Everything is so much more expensive. There are no shekels in Gaza, only dollars.

"The Uuwra employees here only got 50% of their salaries last month because there is such a shortage of money in the strip.

"I can't draw out money from the bank. My brother sends me cash from Egypt via people who return through the crossing."

Fuel is another commodity that is more expensive. Three weeks ago diesel was one shekel ($0.26) a litre, now it is more than four.

"How are we going to get fuel if they don't re-open the crossings?" asked Ahmed.

"We have been living under siege for 18 months. We don't trust Israel to provide for us. We are lacking so many things the West takes for granted. Animal feed.

"They never talk about it but what are we supposed to feed our chickens and cows? That's why the price of meat and poultry has risen so fast."

In short, the economy of Gaza and Rafah is shattered - much like its people.

"We hope there will be a truce," said Abu Moustafa.

"But how long will it last? If the international community continues to turn a blind eye to the injustices we suffer then we will never break this vicious circle. We want peace too. Who wants to live like this?"

 

[Freshgeardude]

lock this shit up we already have a 700 + response thread for this first of all.

secondly, I love Palestinian propaganda!

thirdly, hamas doesnt give 2 shits about its people and kills them, obviously its bad there.

Israel is not covering the egypt border, which is meant for people who want to escape, the ability to. egypt on the other hand does not let them go

 

[fallout man]

Originally posted by: freshgeardude
lock this shit up we already have a 700 + response thread for this first of all.

secondly, I love Palestinian propaganda!

thirdly, hamas doesnt give 2 shits about its people and kills them, obviously its bad there.

Israel is not covering the egypt border, which is meant for people who want to escape, the ability to. egypt on the other hand does not let them go

Is that a Mod call-out? I see a very special Bat-signal in the sky...

Yes. Lock this shit up so that the majority of P&N readers won't be able to see anything but your and yours' frothing spam, fresh dude.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Atheus

I would like this thread to be about the civilians, not the war against Hamas itself, and certainly not the rights and wrongs of the existance of countries called Isreal or Palestine.

You can't separate the topics with out separating Hamas from the Palestinian civilians. That's Hamas' doing, not Israel's.

I think many people (mostly westerners) are guilty of seeing the Palestinian people as backward, uneducated, fundamentalist barbarians - their lives somehow worth less than an Israeli life.

Two part answer:

1. I seldom agree with alchemize, but he's right that at least the plurality of Palestinian adults in Gaza elected Hamas knowing their official, announced, continuing goal is the destruction of Israel. That leaves them with at least some responsiblity for the situation they're in, now.

2. If Hamas had any respect for those civilians they claim to represent, they wouldn't use them as shields. Palestinians who oppose Hamas are their victims, as well. The question is, who put them in harms way?

The better question is, how do we get both sides to stop... REALLY stop? :light:

This makes it very easy to argue that shooting through them hit the terrorists is acceptable, but when you read something like this blog, you are able to put names and faces to real human beings. Would you shoot through Fares Akram's newborn baby to hit a terrorist? It's a very different question.

If the terrorists behind his baby was shooting at me and my family, you can believe I'd be shooting at them, baby or no baby.

I wouldn't like it, and, if I survived, I'd have to live with it, but at that moment, the only other option sucked even more.

Pretty much the first time I can remember agreeing with you Harvey.

I think if "reacting to violence with greater violence" were the answer, I posit that this conflict would have been over long, long ago. I think the answer is that there IS no "right" answer. That too much blood has been shed on both sides to view this objectively any more. Too many children have died on both sides so that now each side can rightfully claim the mantel of having to "respond"...violence has begat violence.

Both sides can get as frothy as they want... both sides can spew facts and anecdotes as much as they want... both sides can do whatever they want to do, but no meaningful change can occur unless they both just STFU and start fresh. That is the one thing that has to happen and that's the one thing that's most difficult.

If, and only if, that happens then the two core elements that must set the conditions can be met: 1) A stop to the fighting and 2) An agreement to form a Palestinian State.

The enablers to a following peace process...are many. An end to Islamic rocketing and other terrorism. An end to the blockade. A stop to Jewish settlements in accordance with agreements. Maybe internationalizing Jerusulem? An international effort to create Palestine? Or maybe just an Israeli/PA effort? Or maybe an all-Arab effort?

However, the immediate situation is clear. As long as Hamas has power, it's an unbearable cancer to Israel, The Gazans, and any potential "peace process." Hamas must go extinct before any meaningful change for the better can occur. If Israel stops short, we will just see more of the same for who knows how many years. It is far beyond an organization like Hamas to be capable of sincere change.

There are routes available to peace. But they require a level of political will, and acceptance of risk, that I am not confident exist there, or elsewhere in the world today. I guess Israel has a chance, a potential... it is conceivable that they do what's necessary. But any way you look at it, Hamas is an affront to humanity and civilization... and needs to end.

 

[cwjerome]

Wow, I killed this thread

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
However, the immediate situation is clear. As long as Hamas has power, it's an unbearable cancer to Israel, The Gazans, and any potential "peace process." Hamas must go extinct before any meaningful change for the better can occur. If Israel stops short, we will just see more of the same for who knows how many years. It is far beyond an organization like Hamas to be capable of sincere change.

I'm very curious as to if there are any historical parallels to this situation in regards to Hamas. I'm pretty ignorant of how the British "IRA problem" was resolved, but that seems like the closest comparison I can think of. What was done there that could be put into motion in the Middle East? Any experts on that particular affair?