Something odd about Llano and Bulldozer.

[JFAMD]

People buy brazos-based systems for their battery life, not their gaming performance. I was just in china and one of the guys I was traveling with didn't even bother to carry an AC adapter to the office. His brazos-based notebook ran all day on a battery.

The original statement is like saying "I bought a prius and I can't believe how slow it is going from 0-60" or "man, that corvette really eats the gas"....

 

[frostedflakes]

Great analogy.

AMD hit the sweet spot with Brazos IMO, perfect mix of performance and battery life for netbooks. I'm really excited for Llano, hopefully it can achieve in the mainstream/high-performance mobile sector what Zacate and Ontario have achieved for low end netbooks and laptops.

 

[beginner99]

what does special software mean? is something written in opencl specific for GPU "special software"? if it is how is that any different to something written in C/++/# for X86? if you want performance you have to consider the architexture when writing software for it.

I agree my claim is a little utopic. I was just trying to point out that Llano isn't anything new, we had the same thing already over a year ago with arrandale.

OpenCL is special. If you say you have an APU then Why do I need special software to program it's gpu? The name APU is a joke. It's just a CPU and GPU on the same die but to make use of the GPU you have to handle it like any other GPU. There is no abstraction and no advantage over a discrete GPU.
What I mean is that maybe a FP heavy calculation is automatically done on the GPU part and not the CPU part. I doubt this is done and I also doubt it's easily possible hence utopic claim.
Only downside of SB is probably missing open-cl support but I'm not sure that's the case.

People buy brazos-based systems for their battery life, not their gaming performance. I was just in china and one of the guys I was traveling with didn't even bother to carry an AC adapter to the office. His brazos-based notebook ran all day on a battery.

The original statement is like saying "I bought a prius and I can't believe how slow it is going from 0-60" or "man, that corvette really eats the gas"....

Well AMD's claim why brazos and Llano are better are because of the better GPU not because of better battery life. Later could be increased by reducing gpu to half of it's size or less. if you can't game on it anyway, make it as small as possible for 2d stuff and very simple 3d stuff + fixed function for decode. Or: A netbook doesn't need GPU power. At same battery life I would always pick the netbook with best single-threaded cpu performance. That's what matters for webbrowsing.

Or 1 PC for everything won't work and to even get a decent result you pay way more than for 2 separate devices, meaning desktop with good gpu and laptop that has the focus on battery life (meaning no useless hardware).

I'm not AMD bashing or intel fan boy just stating how I would have done it considering my needs. Maybe I'm an untypical user but I doubt it.

 

[tincart]

Well AMD's claim why brazos and Llano are better are because of the better GPU not because of better battery life. Later could be increased by reducing gpu to half of it's size or less. if you can't game on it anyway, make it as small as possible for 2d stuff and very simple 3d stuff + fixed function for decode. Or: A netbook doesn't need GPU power.

Gaming is not the only thing you would want a good GPU for.

 

[frostedflakes]

Yeah AMD is kind of betting on the GPGPU thing catching on. If it does, it means that even if you're not a gamer, that built-in GPU won't go to waste.

 

[beginner99]

Gaming is not the only thing you would want a good GPU for.

Then tell me what else and how many consumer use it.

GPU in consumer world is probably 70% for decode and 30% gaming with a marginal rest for fancy stuff like gpgpu. But then gpgpu is usually for heavy calculations which netbooks and notebooks are not meant for.

It took forever for software to get multi-threaded, most in fact still isn't. GPGPU is ultra-niche market.

 

[Cerb]

Then tell me what else and how many consumer use it.

GPU in consumer world is probably 70% for decode and 30% gaming with a marginal rest for fancy stuff like gpgpu. But then gpgpu is usually for heavy calculations which netbooks and notebooks are not meant for.

It took forever for software to get multi-threaded, most in fact still isn't. GPGPU is ultra-niche market.

Not gaming: useless but common MS Office visual tasks, which are noticeably smoother on AMD IGP.
Not gaming: CAD. AutoCAD works much better than you'd expect on AMD IGP, and much worse than you'd expect on Intel's (at least pre-SB).
Not gaming: Adobe productivity software.
Not gaming: Internet Explorer.
Finally, go try to play back some HD videos, and add some postprocessing, using Intel IGP.

 

[Idontcare]

Well AMD's claim why brazos and Llano are better are because of the better GPU not because of better battery life.

The argument is that performance/watt improves.

It is up to the user to decide if they want more performance with higher power consumption, or same performance with better battery life. Their usage patterns will reflect the choice they are making.

 

[Arkadrel]

Then tell me what else and how many consumer use it.

GPU in consumer world is probably 70% for decode and 30% gaming with a marginal rest for fancy stuff like gpgpu. But then gpgpu is usually for heavy calculations which netbooks and notebooks are not meant for.

It took forever for software to get multi-threaded, most in fact still isn't. GPGPU is ultra-niche market.

A few that can use the GPGPU (OpenCL?) of the APU:

Arcsoft(TotalMedia Theatre 5, Media converter 7)
Adobe (flash player)
Corel (WinDVD pro 2010, VideoStudio Pro, Digital studio 2010)
CyberLink (PowerDVD 10, MediaEspresso 6,Mediashow 5, Powerdirector 9 )
Microsoft (office, IE 9, Powerpoint 2010, Windows Live Essentials)
Nuvixa (be present)
EarthSim 2 (3D Universe Browser)
Vivu (Desktop Telepresence)
Viewdle (Viewdle Uploader)
AMD (Fusion Media Explorer, Worldwide VISION)
Dailymotion (HTML5-based video player)


Here is a list for Steam/direct compute/APP/OpenCL:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=58195



There are lots of Programs that make use of GPGPU, and more will come with time because of how common the APUs are bound to be someday.

But then gpgpu is usually for heavy calculations which netbooks and notebooks are not meant for.

Who says that(heavy calculations) has to be what you use it(GPU) for?

If you can use the GPU to accelerate MS office/powerpoint, so it runs better/uses less power(watts) wouldnt that be a good thing for a notebook? Or Adobe flash? Internet Explorer? ect

 

[Blitzvogel]

It's not just battery life but adding more features/capability into a chip for the same or lower cost, making the product more attractive and better than the competition.

 

[IntelUser2000]

Half of the programs you listed there has to do with video playback and transcoding. The others like IE9 is well supported even on Clarkdale, since its really Direct2D or something.

 

[Dadofamunky]

Because it wasn't designed that way.

I think that makes sense, since AMD already has integrated products and a superior GPU line. I don't see the need for AMD/Bulldozer to match Sandy Bridge's specs. Heck, I wasn't interested in using SB's integrated GPU in any case - although I think I should be able to use QuickSync without it, and the fact that I can't is a design flaw IMHO. I think AMD needs to re-establish its competitiveness in the broader corporate/home/enthusiast computing space (I think their server platforms are already competitive). I hope BD succeeds.

 

[JFAMD]

The most interesting thing about being a smaller company up against a really big competitor (that does not always play fair) is that your job is NOT to go head to head with them in the same markets, they can just outspend you.

The goal is to find parts of the market where they aren't that you can own.Take a look at Xeon and Opteron today. They are going after high clock speed lower core count, we are going after higher core count. We have each laid our bets on where we think the market is headed. Trying to take on a bigger competitor by matching their products is not a great strategy, yet everyone here seems to want the two companies to go head to head.

 

[HW2050Plus]

Llano is being released to compete with sandy bridge in the mobile space right? But the cpu portion of Llano is based on the current "Stars/K10" architecture right? Bulldozer is Amd's next generation architecture? then why isn't the cpu portion of Llano Bulldozer based? Could it be either that Bulldozer is a minor upgrade from the current K10 architecture,Or that Bulldozer will be a power hungry beast unsuitable for the mobile market? I know the second gen of Llano will be bulldozer based but if Bulldozer is supposed to 'bulldoze' intel then why aren't all of amd's next gen products based on one architecture? Excluding bobcat ofcourse.

That is quite easy.
Llano was planned to come out in Q1, before BD is ready. Also it is planned that the next APU generation will have BD cores (forgot the code name btw.) as you already wrote. It is just a scheduling issue.

In addition Llano core is smaller than a BD core which saves production cost, so it has advantages too.

 

[Blitzvogel]

The most interesting thing about being a smaller company up against a really big competitor (that does not always play fair) is that your job is NOT to go head to head with them in the same markets, they can just outspend you.

The goal is to find parts of the market where they aren't that you can own.Take a look at Xeon and Opteron today. They are going after high clock speed lower core count, we are going after higher core count. We have each laid our bets on where we think the market is headed. Trying to take on a bigger competitor by matching their products is not a great strategy, yet everyone here seems to want the two companies to go head to head.

Intel certainly has much larger resources to counter whatever AMD comes up with for the long term, as AMD tends to stretch out architecture life spans. We'll see how Ivy Bridge turns out, though AMD still has their ace in the hole: GPGPU capability with OpenCL and DirectCompute, assuming Intel just recycles their current IGP tech by just "doubling it up" and programs take proper advantage of an APU's capability. Of course cost will be a factor but considering Llano is aiming to be relatively inexpensive, I don't see it being too much of an issue.

I honestly think that Llano will be a hit with OEMs and HTPC builders, as I'm looking to acquire a Llano system for my own purposes, to fuck around with and use as an HTPC. I also hope that the APUs themselves will be available by themselves as well as separate boards.

 

[drizek]

Trying to take on a bigger competitor by matching their products is not a great strategy, yet everyone here seems to want the two companies to go head to head.

We want AMD to build products that we actually want to buy. I'd get a Brazos or mobile Llano, but Llano on the desktop is useless to me, as is Bulldozer in servers. I want something that can go head to head with an Intel 2500K.

 

[nonameo]

We want AMD to build products that we actually want to buy. I'd get a Brazos or mobile Llano, but Llano on the desktop is useless to me, as is Bulldozer in servers. I want something that can go head to head with an Intel 2500K.

I think what JF is saying is that if you want a 2500k then you need to get a 2500k. AMD is not really going to offer you a direct competitor. Instead, they're going for blue oceans. Remember, AMD is still a company and their aim is to turn as much profit as they can. If this means that they can't have the biggest e-peen, then so be it.

However, bulldozer is probably going to be a really, really nice processor for a few niche markets...(???? I guess?)

 

[drizek]

I think what JF is saying is that if you want a 2500k then you need to get a 2500k. AMD is not really going to offer you a direct competitor. Instead, they're going for blue oceans. Remember, AMD is still a company and their aim is to turn as much profit as they can. If this means that they can't have the biggest e-peen, then so be it.

However, bulldozer is probably going to be a really, really nice processor for a few niche markets...(???? I guess?)

But Brazos and Llano are all about "balance" in the mobile market. I want a balanced CPU for a high end desktop.

 

[nonameo]

But Brazos and Llano are all about "balance" in the mobile market. I want a balanced CPU for a high end desktop.

What do you mean by "balanced" ??? the "balance" in llano and brazos are between cpu and gpu. In that regard, there's nothing to "balance" with bulldozer.

 

[drizek]

What do you mean by "balanced" ??? the "balance" in llano and brazos are between cpu and gpu. In that regard, there's nothing to "balance" with bulldozer.

Balanced performance across different kinds of apps. Balanced in terms of single and multi threaded performance.

Phenom is unbalanced because single threaded performance is really bad compared to Intel, and it can only compete when it has (significantly) more cores than an Intel chip, and only in heavily threaded apps.

 

[nonameo]

Balanced performance across different kinds of apps. Balanced in terms of single and multi threaded performance.

Phenom is unbalanced because single threaded performance is really bad compared to Intel, and it can only compete when it has (significantly) more cores than an Intel chip, and only in heavily threaded apps.

Is the 2500k not balanced enough for you?

 

[drizek]

Is the 2500k not balanced enough for you?

No, it's a piece of shit. Or, rather, the chipset is.

If AMD doesn't deliver then I will get a 2500K, and a Z68 motherboard with IB support. I will not buy into intels current mess of a platform.

 

[nonameo]

No, it's a piece of shit. Or, rather, the chipset is.

If AMD doesn't deliver then I will get a 2500K, and a Z68 motherboard with IB support. I will not buy into intels current mess of a platform.

fair enough.

 

[RobertPters77]

People buy brazos-based systems for their battery life, not their gaming performance. I was just in china and one of the guys I was traveling with didn't even bother to carry an AC adapter to the office. His brazos-based notebook ran all day on a battery.

Not always. What was that guy who you were traveling with doing primarily with his brazos system? Watching 1080p movies? No. Doing office work? Than a non brazos system would've suited him just aswell. Case in point. I have a toshiba notebook with an Amd v-140 & hd4250 graphics. I can go 8 hours just browsing the internet before my battery dips into the red zone.

The original statement is like saying "I bought a prius and I can't believe how slow it is going from 0-60" or "man, that corvette really eats the gas"....

Look I'm not saying brazos is bad. I'm saying that it's use is very limited and it has a small niche market to find it's place in. Compared to the current tech that's already out there, Brazos is not better in performance and is not cheaper compared to what OEM's are charging for it and older tech.

Amd's biggest problem with brazos is it's letting the OEM's treat it like Intel let their OEM partners treat atom at release. 500-1k netbooks with low performance but 'good' battery life. You can't do that anymore. People ain't stupid. The reason I put off buying atom net/notebooks was the performance per dollar was not worth it.

Look, maybe brazos will have a life in the tablet pc arena. Or brazos will find itself in the embedded market. I don't know. But to have Amd advertise 'Advanced Graphics' and not have brazos be able to play games at decent settings, which is what many uneducated consumers who buy a brazos based system will be expecting, will only backfire at amd in the longrun.

It's like you said. Why buy a prius expecting to go fast or buy a corvette and expect to conserve gas?

 

[Martimus]

Amd's biggest problem with brazos is it's letting the OEM's treat it like Intel let their OEM partners treat atom at release. 500-1k netbooks with low performance but 'good' battery life. You can't do that anymore. People ain't stupid. The reason I put off buying atom net/notebooks was the performance per dollar was not worth it.

The OEMs make those because there is a market for that. I would like one. Would it replace my current laptop? No, but it would work well for traveling to places where i won't have access to power to plug into.

The nice thing about it is it works better than an atom at this, and has higher performance to boot. Obviously this means there is a major problem with the current generation of Atom processors if this is the case, so we can expect Intel to work to fix that, or just give up the "netbook" market entirely.