Something I learned today that I find very interesting

[BigToque]

If someone is to believe in nothing but science and the natural law, then you must also believe in fate. Everything that happens in your life and this univerise is nothing more then the effect of some earlier cause. This includes thought, emotion and behaviour.

I don't think I have ever truly understood what it means to have free will (and I do very much believe I have a free will and am not religious in any way). Freedom is it's own cause and is outside the realm of science.

I just thought that this was interesting and thought you might like to read more.

 

[Cawchy87]

I belive in Quantum Mechanics which states that nothing can be predicted exactly. Only probiblities can be calculated.

 

[ArJuN]

Matrix?

 

[aidanjm]

even if that is true.. the complexities involved would mean it is pretty much impossible to predict outcomes with accuracy.. so from our perspectives as humans with self awareness, it's as if there is no fate

 

[Schadenfreude]

n00b. [/asshat]

 

[BigToque]

Originally posted by: Cawchy87
I belive in Quantum Mechanics which states that nothing can be predicted exactly. Only probiblities can be calculated.

Andrew?

Anyway, even with quantum mechanics, there is still a cause and an effect even if you can't accurately identify what that cause is and you would ultimately still be locked in a deterministic and closed universe.

 

[Cawchy87]

Originally posted by: BigToque

Originally posted by: Cawchy87
I belive in Quantum Mechanics which states that nothing can be predicted exactly. Only probiblities can be calculated.

Andrew?

Anyway, even with quantum mechanics, there is still a cause and an effect even if you can't accurately identify what that cause is and you would ultimately still be locked in a deterministic and closed universe.

I'm not sure what your arguement is. I agree with you that there is a cause and effect relationship between everything in the universe.

However, you stated that without the knowledge of what the cause is, the effect is still easily determined. This makes no sence to me.

To re-state my point now. Even if you KNEW the exact cause you could never figure out the effect. In your case where the cause is unknown there is no possible way to determine the effect.

In general: Cause ---> Effect

In your case: ? -----> Effect (determinable)

But, in your case, how do you know that the event is indeed an effect if you do not know the cause? What you view as an effect may actually be a cause that has been mis-identified.

 

[stan394]

Official Member of the ATOT Neffing @ Work Crew

hm .. that makes sense

 

[FoBoT]

i'll say it again in the land of the free
use your freedom of choice
freedom of choice

freedom of choice
is what you got
freedom of choice!

 

[Rock Hydra]

^_^

 

[Triumph]

Hey! Give me my avatar back!

I think to agree with your argument, I would have to have some intrinsic understanding of what the cause and effect of thoughts and emotions is. An interesting problem. What "causes" us to feel or think a certain way? What causes me to prefer one thing over another? Why do I like or dislike any particular thing? And how can you prove an effect from thought? I may think a course of action is a good idea, but I may not necessarily act on it. Applying the principles of action/reaction to people is by no means an exact science.

 

[BigToque]

Originally posted by: Cawchy87

Originally posted by: BigToque

Originally posted by: Cawchy87
I belive in Quantum Mechanics which states that nothing can be predicted exactly. Only probiblities can be calculated.

Andrew?

Anyway, even with quantum mechanics, there is still a cause and an effect even if you can't accurately identify what that cause is and you would ultimately still be locked in a deterministic and closed universe.

I'm not sure what your arguement is. I agree with you that there is a cause and effect relationship between everything in the universe.

However, you stated that without the knowledge of what the cause is, the effect is still easily determined. This makes no sence to me.

To re-state my point now. Even if you KNEW the exact cause you could never figure out the effect. In your case where the cause is unknown there is no possible way to determine the effect.

In general: Cause ---> Effect

In your case: ? -----> Effect (determinable)

But, in your case, how do you know that the event is indeed an effect if you do not know the cause? What you view as an effect may actually be a cause that has been mis-identified.

You mentioned quantum mechanics. What I am stating is even in quantum mechanics where only probabilities of outcomes exist, ultimately some outcome or event occurs. This event is the the cause of the next event, which is the cause of the next event, etc...

What I'm ultimately saying is that if everything in this world is a cause-and-effect, then everything that will ever happen is already pre-determined.

If you believe in free-will, nothing is pre-determined.

I'm not arguing for or against either side, just making a statement that I find to be very interesting.

 

[moshquerade]

that really is head exploding material

 

[RaiderJ]

Originally posted by: BigToque
If someone is to believe in nothing but science and the natural law, then you must also believe in fate. Everything that happens in your life and this univerise is nothing more then the effect of some earlier cause. This includes thought, emotion and behaviour.

I don't think I have ever truly understood what it means to have free will (and I do very much believe I have a free will and am not religious in any way). Freedom is it's own cause and is outside the realm of science.

I just thought that this was interesting and thought you might like to read more.

Not true. I'm of the opinion that there are higher order functions that don't relate directly from the workings of lower level objects. Kinda like how your stomach "causes" digestion, or your brain structure "causes" consciousness.

Research some stuff by Kurt Godel, who worked alongside Einstein. That kinda stuff hurts my brain.

 

[Cattlegod]

Originally posted by: RaiderJ

Originally posted by: BigToque
If someone is to believe in nothing but science and the natural law, then you must also believe in fate. Everything that happens in your life and this univerise is nothing more then the effect of some earlier cause. This includes thought, emotion and behaviour.

I don't think I have ever truly understood what it means to have free will (and I do very much believe I have a free will and am not religious in any way). Freedom is it's own cause and is outside the realm of science.

I just thought that this was interesting and thought you might like to read more.

Not true. I'm of the opinion that there are higher order functions that don't relate directly from the workings of lower level objects. Kinda like how your stomach "causes" digestion, or your brain structure "causes" consciousness.

Research some stuff by Kurt Godel, who worked alongside Einstein. That kinda stuff hurts my brain.

although I'm inclined to agree with you, he makes a very arguable point.

 

[RaiderJ]

Originally posted by: BigToque

Originally posted by: Cawchy87

Originally posted by: BigToque

Originally posted by: Cawchy87
I belive in Quantum Mechanics which states that nothing can be predicted exactly. Only probiblities can be calculated.

Andrew?

Anyway, even with quantum mechanics, there is still a cause and an effect even if you can't accurately identify what that cause is and you would ultimately still be locked in a deterministic and closed universe.

I'm not sure what your arguement is. I agree with you that there is a cause and effect relationship between everything in the universe.

However, you stated that without the knowledge of what the cause is, the effect is still easily determined. This makes no sence to me.

To re-state my point now. Even if you KNEW the exact cause you could never figure out the effect. In your case where the cause is unknown there is no possible way to determine the effect.

In general: Cause ---> Effect

In your case: ? -----> Effect (determinable)

But, in your case, how do you know that the event is indeed an effect if you do not know the cause? What you view as an effect may actually be a cause that has been mis-identified.

You mentioned quantum mechanics. What I am stating is even in quantum mechanics where only probabilities of outcomes exist, ultimately some outcome or event occurs. This event is the the cause of the next event, which is the cause of the next event, etc...

What I'm ultimately saying is that if everything in this world is a cause-and-effect, then everything that will ever happen is already pre-determined.

If you believe in free-will, nothing is pre-determined.

I'm not arguing for or against either side, just making a statement that I find to be very interesting.

Read up on Kurt Godel's Incompleteness Theorem to see why your logic is incorrect. And don't feel bad - Godel's theorem went against thinking of the previous 100 years of mathematics at the time it was released.

 

[BigToque]

Originally posted by: RaiderJ

Originally posted by: BigToque

Originally posted by: Cawchy87

Originally posted by: BigToque

Originally posted by: Cawchy87
I belive in Quantum Mechanics which states that nothing can be predicted exactly. Only probiblities can be calculated.

Andrew?

Anyway, even with quantum mechanics, there is still a cause and an effect even if you can't accurately identify what that cause is and you would ultimately still be locked in a deterministic and closed universe.

I'm not sure what your arguement is. I agree with you that there is a cause and effect relationship between everything in the universe.

However, you stated that without the knowledge of what the cause is, the effect is still easily determined. This makes no sence to me.

To re-state my point now. Even if you KNEW the exact cause you could never figure out the effect. In your case where the cause is unknown there is no possible way to determine the effect.

In general: Cause ---> Effect

In your case: ? -----> Effect (determinable)

But, in your case, how do you know that the event is indeed an effect if you do not know the cause? What you view as an effect may actually be a cause that has been mis-identified.

You mentioned quantum mechanics. What I am stating is even in quantum mechanics where only probabilities of outcomes exist, ultimately some outcome or event occurs. This event is the the cause of the next event, which is the cause of the next event, etc...

What I'm ultimately saying is that if everything in this world is a cause-and-effect, then everything that will ever happen is already pre-determined.

If you believe in free-will, nothing is pre-determined.

I'm not arguing for or against either side, just making a statement that I find to be very interesting.

Read up on Kurt Godel's Incompleteness Theorem to see why your logic is incorrect. And don't feel bad - Godel's theorem went against thinking of the previous 100 years of mathematics at the time it was released.

I'll definitely read it... I'm always up to learning new things and seeing things from new perspectives 🙂

Edit: after reading a little bit of it, I am now very interested 😛

 

[RaiderJ]

Godel's Incompleteness Theorem (Wiki)

Edit: You'll see why I compare this to "digestion" or "consciousness" if you read the first couple paragraphs!

Edit 2: A favorite quote of mine from Godel is something like "If you take religion to be a series of unproveable statements, thusly require "faith" to believe, then mathematics is the only religion able to prove itself to be one."