Someone explain labor unions to me

[Lithium381]

Hopefully you guys can make this a serious thread. It's not meant to be a troll thread. Previously I went with the attitude that "unions are the base of our problems!" but then realized that maybe i'm making an uneducated decision. So i have some questions.

I want to approach this with a /more/ open mind than i had previosuly.

I went to wikipedia and such but that wasn't much help in explaining how unions work.
my understanding is that if a majority of employees want to participate in a union, the company is legally obliged to take part? What does that mean? Can't they participate in allowing the union to form, and then just say "no" to the union requests?

You can't fire or lay-off a union member without first consulting the union representatives?

If your company has a CBA, can you hire a non-union worker?

If you suspend a union worker(can you even do that?), they still get paid?

I have heard stories such that an employee moves his computer monitor from one cubicle to another..... and the union members file complaints? what is that about?

are companies obligated to use union labor even if it's more expensive?

i'm sure i'll think of more later. lets take these questions in perspective of the private sector, or if you are talking about public sector, then please make that distinction, if there is a difference. Thanks!

 

[Throckmorton]

All of those things depend on the contract between the employer and the union.

 

[Strk]

People at my work get suspended all the time. It is usually without pay. The only way you can get pay is if you were suspended without a hearing and then win the hearing after the fact. The only time that happens is for accidents. We have automatic drug tests with any incident reports filed and you're suspended until the results come back. If you fail, you're fired. Threats and stealing also get people fired, although people have managed to get their jobs back with the former every now and again (usually special circumstances).

But that's just my work, it can very at any company. Hell, even at my company people bitch that we can be forced out of classification if there isn't any work for them. People don't understand that that helps us remain competitive.

 

[ElFenix]

are companies obligated to use union labor even if it's more expensive?

if the union has voted to operate the *whatever* and it's not a right to work state, yes, the company is obligated to use the union. unless the union goes on strike, in which case the company can use scabs.

if it's a right to work state the company can hire whoever it pleases.

 

[spidey07]

Hopefully you guys can make this a serious thread. It's not meant to be a troll thread. Previously I went with the attitude that "unions are the base of our problems!" but then realized that maybe i'm making an uneducated decision. So i have some questions.

I want to approach this with a /more/ open mind than i had previosuly.

I went to wikipedia and such but that wasn't much help in explaining how unions work.
my understanding is that if a majority of employees want to participate in a union, the company is legally obliged to take part? What does that mean? Can't they participate in allowing the union to form, and then just say "no" to the union requests?
---don't know, the company can always just fire everybody allowing those that want those jobs to come work and get paid. In the real world employment contracts are negotiated between employee and employer. A payer/payee relationship. This is where collective bargaining via forming a union comes in - it take the payer/payee relationship to a monopoly on the labor side.

You can't fire or lay-off a union member without first consulting the union representatives?
---you can, but the union will sue via contract. Essentially it's easier and financially better to pay the union employee without firing them. By contract of course.

If your company has a CBA, can you hire a non-union worker?
---likely not depending on job, depends on contract

If you suspend a union worker(can you even do that?), they still get paid?
---of course they do, by contract

I have heard stories such that an employee moves his computer monitor from one cubicle to another..... and the union members file complaints? what is that about?
---fucking union contract

are companies obligated to use union labor even if it's more expensive?
---Yes, it's a requirement by many/most companies. It's like affirmative action, but much worse and much more expensive.

i'm sure i'll think of more later. lets take these questions in perspective of the private sector, or if you are talking about public sector, then please make that distinction, if there is a difference. Thanks!

It gets very complicated but I'll try to address my understanding, having never been in a union but used union labor for a shit ton of jobs. Unions are a good thing and bad depending of course the industry/union.

 

[SooperDave]

I am part of a labor union and we can be fired with out contacting a union rep. If it is serious (safety violations,insubordination, no shows) than you get fired but if you just keep pissing off the boss or don't perform then a "reduction in force" layoff is what you get. It is easier than writing someone up and documenting issues.

 

[Lemon law]

Why should I try to explain a labor Union when Karl Marx explained that and capitalists in Das Kapital around 150 years ago.

The point is and remains, a capitalist can only control the cost of his own Labor force, and will try without limit to depress wages as far as possible, while other capitalist in other economic sectors do the same. The net result is cheap goods and no one in the economy able to afford to buy the finished goods. During the 20'th century America somewhat struck the correct balance and America prospered, with the main exception being the great depression and the last two decades of the 20'th century where greedy Unions voted themselves out of existence.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Why should I try to explain a labor Union when Karl Marx explained that and capitalists in Das Kapital around 150 years ago.

The point is and remains, a capitalist can only control the cost of his own Labor force, and will try without limit to depress wages as far as possible, while other capitalist in other economic sectors do the same. The net result is cheap goods and no one in the economy able to afford to buy the finished goods. During the 20'th century America somewhat struck the correct balance and America prospered, with the main exception being the great depression and the last two decades of the 20'th century where greedy Corporations outsourced the majority of jobs.

Fixed that for you.

 

[sportage]

Labor Unions are just that. Created when companies demanded long hours, unsafe working conditions, poor wages, child labor. The New York shirtwaist factory fire in 1911 that killed more than 140 mostly women workers is the perfect example why and how unions came to be. Why unions are needed. Why companies would fall back to the tactics of pre union days if they were allowed, to save a buck. Kinda like BP cutting safety to make a buck while believing workers lives are secondary. Unions have benefitted everyone, union member or not. Naturally, business and republicans want to kill unions off and return to the days of mass death and unsafe working conditions. If it were not for unions, you most likely would probably still, to this day, be working in a building with asbestos insulation. But none of us want something as silly as a safe working environment, if that means costing our employer money. Right?

 

[nick1985]

Labor Unions are just that. Created when companies demanded long hours, unsafe working conditions, poor wages, child labor. The New York shirtwaist factory fire in 1911 that killed more than 140 mostly women workers is the perfect example why and how unions came to be. Why unions are needed. Why companies would fall back to the tactics of pre union days if they were allowed, to save a buck. Kinda like BP cutting safety to make a buck while believing workers lives are secondary. Unions have benefitted everyone, union member or not. Naturally, business and republicans want to kill unions off and return to the days of mass death and unsafe working conditions. If it were not for unions, you most likely would probably still, to this day, be working in a building with asbestos insulation. But none of us want something as silly as a safe working environment, if that means costing our employer money. Right?

Don't modern labor laws prevent just about every awful thing you just rattled off?

 

[spidey07]

Why should I try to explain a labor Union when Karl Marx explained that and capitalists in Das Kapital around 150 years ago.

The point is and remains, a capitalist can only control the cost of his own Labor force, and will try without limit to depress wages as far as possible, while other capitalist in other economic sectors do the same. The net result is cheap goods and no one in the economy able to afford to buy the finished goods. During the 20'th century America somewhat struck the correct balance and America prospered, with the main exception being the great depression and the last two decades of the 20'th century where greedy Unions voted themselves out of existence.

Fucking communist. Get out if my country.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Don't modern labor laws prevent just about every awful thing you just rattled off?

Because the only things that threaten today's workers are exactly the same as a hundred years ago?

 

[nick1985]

Because the only things that threaten today's workers are exactly the same as a hundred years ago?

I was using his examples of "what would happen" and showed how those practices are illegal today with labor laws?

 

[Lemon law]

I will not disagree that our other big problem is outsourcing jobs, but out sourcing jobs became far easier after greedy Unions lost their political identity, forgot their roots, and voted themselves out of power. Eventually the pendulum will swing back to labor, but not sadly, IMHO, until long after the American decline is through. And already the base of the American economy food chain is seriously decimated, and even the moderately rich are finding they have to run faster and faster just to keep from slipping further back. And now only the top 0.1% are making more money, mainly by outsourcing jobs.

But still the American voter has not woken up yet, because America is a hot bed of apathy and ignorance.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

I was using his examples of "what would happen" and showed how those practices are illegal today with labor laws?

And who helped bring about those labor laws? I know, it was well meaning politicians who always have our best interests at heart.

 

[nick1985]

And who helped bring about those labor laws? I know, it was well meaning politicians who always have our best interests at heart.

Sure, unions did. They had their place, and still do in some areas. To argue that they were awesome 200 years ago, so therefore they must be just as awesome today is a silly reach in logic.

 

[MrEgo]

Fucking communist. Get out if my country.

I thought it was a good post, with arguments for and against labor unions.

 

[MrEgo]

Not a rhetorical question, but are there ever situations where the labor union dissolves because it is no longer necessary? Perhaps a situation where the company once treated their employees like shit many decades ago, but has since cleaned up their act?

 

[sao123]

my understanding is that if a majority of employees want to participate in a union, the company is legally obliged to take part? What does that mean? Can't they participate in allowing the union to form, and then just say "no" to the union requests?

The national Labor Relations Act give employees the right to organize into unions for the purpose of excercising Protected Concerted Activitys. PCA's are when two or more employees act together to improve their terms and conditions of employment, including increasing wages & compensation, improving workplace conditions, increasing safety without fear of employer retaliation.

You can't fire or lay-off a union member without first consulting the union representatives?
Any termination must follow due process in accordance with the negotiated collective bargaining agreement. This due process usually involves a disciplinary hearing with union representation present. Termination for non disciplinary reason would be considered breach of contract unless the CBA has furlough provisions for downsizing. However furlough provisions give furloghed workers first rights on all future hirings when they become available.

If your company has a CBA, can you hire a non-union worker?
You hire whichever worker you wish, (except for furlough provisions) but you cannot inquire about nor interfere with their right to join or not join the union. Regardless of joining the union or not, generally CBA's are exclusive for all non-management employees. A worker who chooses to not join is still goverened by the terms of the CBA.

If you suspend a union worker(can you even do that?), they still get paid?
Disciplinary measures are negotiated as part of the contract. Suspension with and without pay are both legal options if negotiated as part of the contract.

I have heard stories such that an employee moves his computer monitor from one cubicle to another..... and the union members file complaints? what is that about?

Generally salarys ranges are set by the position classification, determined by minimum skillset necessary, with steps inside the range determined by longevity/experience. the work tasks determines the salary, not the workers skills. AKA, all forklift drivers make base 30K, but the guy who has been there 10 years might make 38K and the guy who has bene there 5 makes 34K. However a forklift mechanic might start at 35K. This is known as the payscale and step. Issues arise when members of one payclass perform the duties of another. If a janitor being paid 20K per year, moves a monitor, when an IT guy is paid 40K per year, he is depriving that person of work and salary, by an underqualified underpaid employee doing his work for him. (The It guy could be missing out on overtime because someone else is doing his job) Likewise if the IT guy mops the floor, the lower class work is being done by an overqualified, overpaid employee. (The janitor could demand equal salary as the IT guy doing his job- aka out of class pay). these boundaries are clearly defined to prevent these situations.


are companies obligated to use union labor even if it's more expensive?
If its employees choose to organize, yes. Unionization is the right of the employees, not the employer.


i'm sure i'll think of more later. lets take these questions in perspective of the private sector, or if you are talking about public sector, then please make that distinction, if there is a difference. Thanks!

bolded some answers.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Sure, unions did. They had their place, and still do in some areas. To argue that they were awesome 200 years ago, so therefore they must be just as awesome today is a silly reach in logic.

To think that all the issues concerning workers welfare have already been dealt with is a "silly reach in logic."

I can't believe these forums have forced me to defend unions. I've worked in the hospitality industry for a very long time and the only folks who have less business being in my industry besides unions are corporations.

 

[Lemon law]

Fucking communist. Get out if my country.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your first problem spideyo7 is that I don't believe in communism, but I do believe in the government's role to balance the interests of labor and capitalism which is an ever moving target.

Look at history spidey07, those governments that pander to only the wealthy seldom last very long. Face the facts spidey07, America is steadily moving to a Haitian style economy.

In short, such an economy may not be communist, but spidey07, even you will want to leave that type of an economy.

As it is, its my country too, and I don't want idiots like you ruining it with your shortsighted ignorance.

 

[Matt1970]

There are some good unions out there but there are also some worthless unions. More times than not Unions will help employees differences with some middle to lower management.

 

[readyrover]

Labor Unions are on a pendulum swing now. Imagine the far left of the swing being the child labor..sweat shops, etc. The far right of the swing is where they have so much influence and political capitol that they ruin industry of the entire nation in a myopic demand for more more more more money..power..control and fuck us all if we go broke in the process and permanently injure our nation's ability to manufacture more goods than we have people on the government employees roster. In the beginning they were "Givers" of quality of life in the workplace. Now, they are becoming "Takers" from the quality of life of the entire nation. Just my two cents...worth about 2 cents less than that.

Also, the comment regarding the electorate is right on. We've allowed ourselves to be painted into such tight corners..republicans call their opposition evil...democrats call their opposition evil..the independents say both of them are wrong...fractured and fragile with 51 percent of the vote considered "A LANDSLIDE"...then back to each party following the party line. This is how we are training the watching future electorate, our kids and grandkids. The politics of division. What's the saying about the house divided against itself again? It cannot stand. And yet we have trillions in debt that should have been dealt with years ago that we cannot get enough of a consensus to trim but a meager few billion bucks. Asleep indeed. At least in Washington. Here at home I'm screaming at the TV! When the change has to come from the top down (because the bottom is split over 2 opposing strategies) and the "top" is more divisive, more shadowy, less experienced than your average small business owner, seemingly "tuned out" to any alternate opinions...well...here we go sinking a little further down. Maybe what we really deserve is an attention getting depression. Hope not. Hope and Change only go so far without actions to back up the words.

 

[alkemyst]

Unions were formed in the gangland times of America. Gangs even to this day run the country...except they get relabeled.

Personally I feel labor unions are VERY anti-capitalism.

I also feel all workers deserve a fair wage though as well.

In the end if the guy paying the worker didn't start playing games, the worker wouldn't have either.

 

[CallMeJoe]

Fucking communist. Get out if my country.

All about the Constitution, eh, spidey?



...except, of course, for that worthless First Amendment...