some scary info here

[oldman420]

Amy Goodman interviews Professor Alfred McCoy
talking about the us torture scandal

http://play.rbn.com/?url=demnow/demnow/...dnB20060217a.rm&proto=rtsp&start=29:38

The manual

http://www.parascope.com/articles/0397/kubark06.htm


I am just ashamed that we do this kind of thing. why cant we be outraged by these things?

 

[GoPackGo]

Did you look at the "manual"

Its from 1963 and page 93 even states pain may not work.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Did you look at the "manual"

Its from 1963 and page 93 even states pain may not work.

Indeed. The only usefulness here may be in convincing some people that "24" is not a documentary of effective intelligence work.

 

[GoPackGo]

and this part at the beginning of the Coercive section:

A. Restrictions

The purpose of this part of the handbook is to present basic information about coercive techniques available for use in the interrogation situation. It is vital that this discussion not be misconstrued as constituting authorization for the use of coercion at field discretion . As was noted earlier, there is no such blanket authorization.

[approx. 10 lines deleted]

For both ethical and pragmatic reasons no interrogator may take upon himself the unilateral responsibility for using coercive methods. Concealing from the interrogator's superiors an intent to resort to coercion, or its unapproved employment, does not protect them. It places them, and KUBARK, in unconsidered jeopardy.

 

[oldman420]

it is indeed old but watch the interview and you will see it is indeed not discarded by the government as useless.

heck they even added stuff

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: oldman420
it is indeed old but watch the interview and you will see it is indeed not discarded by the government as useless.

heck they even added stuff

Im watching the video...10 mins and its boring...

bags over the head as "Torture"??? come on.

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: oldman420
it is indeed old but watch the interview and you will see it is indeed not discarded by the government as useless.

heck they even added stuff

Im watching the video...10 mins and its boring...

bags over the head as "Torture"??? come on.

The CIA must be pretty ineffective if they couldn't kill this guy.
The CIA must be pretty ineffective if he still has been able to publish his books.

 

[aidanjm]

are people aware that salon has obtained the full set of pics from Abu Graib? they are publishing some of them, which haven't been seen before, on their web site:
http://salon.com/news/feature/2006/02/16/abu_ghraib/

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: aidanjm
are people aware that salon has obtained the full set of pics from Abu Graib? they are publishing some of them, which haven't been seen before, on their web site:
http://salon.com/news/feature/2006/02/16/abu_ghraib/

One has to ask, how long these guys were naked and really, why did they take pictures?

Prisoners are usually strip searched...even here in the US.

I feel bad for the soldiers, who were probably just following the orders of the CIA.

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: aidanjm
are people aware that salon has obtained the full set of pics from Abu Graib? they are publishing some of them, which haven't been seen before, on their web site:
http://salon.com/news/feature/2006/02/16/abu_ghraib/

One has to ask, how long these guys were naked and really, why did they take pictures?

Prisoners are usually strip searched...even here in the US.

I feel bad for the soldiers, who were probably just following the orders of the CIA.

I am curious.. What COLOR/RACE are you?

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: aidanjm
are people aware that salon has obtained the full set of pics from Abu Graib? they are publishing some of them, which haven't been seen before, on their web site:
http://salon.com/news/feature/2006/02/16/abu_ghraib/

One has to ask, how long these guys were naked and really, why did they take pictures?

Prisoners are usually strip searched...even here in the US.

I feel bad for the soldiers, who were probably just following the orders of the CIA.

it's pretty humilating to be stripped naked in a concrete cell, then posed in abnormal positions or tied up with a bag over your head, and then have pics taken.

also, some of the prisoners were sodomized and murdered, which is utterly unacceptable.

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: aidanjm
are people aware that salon has obtained the full set of pics from Abu Graib? they are publishing some of them, which haven't been seen before, on their web site:
http://salon.com/news/feature/2006/02/16/abu_ghraib/

One has to ask, how long these guys were naked and really, why did they take pictures?

Prisoners are usually strip searched...even here in the US.

I feel bad for the soldiers, who were probably just following the orders of the CIA.

it's pretty humilating to be stripped naked in a concrete cell, then posed in abnormal positions or tied up with a bag over your head, and then have pics taken.

also, some of the prisoners were sodomized and murdered, which is utterly unacceptable.

On the sodomy I 100 % agree with you. As far as the murder if a prisoner some how managed to get a weapon or was dangerous by some other means I can see how they might have been killed, but thats it.

I do think they should not have been left naked, posed naked, and had their pictures taken.

But think of if this way...we have been told for years about how great and powerful the CIA is. Now the CIA comes to some lower ranking soldiers and gives them orders. You expect the soldiers to not follow them? That is what the chain of command gets you.

 

[Darkhawk28]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: aidanjm
are people aware that salon has obtained the full set of pics from Abu Graib? they are publishing some of them, which haven't been seen before, on their web site:
http://salon.com/news/feature/2006/02/16/abu_ghraib/

One has to ask, how long these guys were naked and really, why did they take pictures?

Prisoners are usually strip searched...even here in the US.

I feel bad for the soldiers, who were probably just following the orders of the CIA.

it's pretty humilating to be stripped naked in a concrete cell, then posed in abnormal positions or tied up with a bag over your head, and then have pics taken.

also, some of the prisoners were sodomized and murdered, which is utterly unacceptable.

On the sodomy I 100 % agree with you. As far as the murder if a prisoner some how managed to get a weapon or was dangerous by some other means I can see how they might have been killed, but thats it.

I do think they should not have been left naked, posed naked, and had their pictures taken.

But think of if this way...we have been told for years about how great and powerful the CIA is. Now the CIA comes to some lower ranking soldiers and gives them orders. You expect the soldiers to not follow them? That is what the chain of command gets you.

Right, the lower ranking soldiers will do as they are told, no doubt. But, another sad thing about all of this is, it's only the lower ranking soldiers that are facing the music for all of this. This sort of institutionalized torture starts at the top... the very top.

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: dahunan

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: aidanjm
are people aware that salon has obtained the full set of pics from Abu Graib? they are publishing some of them, which haven't been seen before, on their web site:
http://salon.com/news/feature/2006/02/16/abu_ghraib/

One has to ask, how long these guys were naked and really, why did they take pictures?

Prisoners are usually strip searched...even here in the US.

I feel bad for the soldiers, who were probably just following the orders of the CIA.

I am curious.. What COLOR/RACE are you?

It doesn't matter. All we have here are the shock value of the pictures. There is no context.

Knowing what actually happened as opposed to what the pictures show will tell us the extent of the wrong doing and who really should be charged.

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: aidanjm
are people aware that salon has obtained the full set of pics from Abu Graib? they are publishing some of them, which haven't been seen before, on their web site:
http://salon.com/news/feature/2006/02/16/abu_ghraib/

One has to ask, how long these guys were naked and really, why did they take pictures?

Prisoners are usually strip searched...even here in the US.

I feel bad for the soldiers, who were probably just following the orders of the CIA.

it's pretty humilating to be stripped naked in a concrete cell, then posed in abnormal positions or tied up with a bag over your head, and then have pics taken.

also, some of the prisoners were sodomized and murdered, which is utterly unacceptable.

On the sodomy I 100 % agree with you. As far as the murder if a prisoner some how managed to get a weapon or was dangerous by some other means I can see how they might have been killed, but thats it.

I do think they should not have been left naked, posed naked, and had their pictures taken.

But think of if this way...we have been told for years about how great and powerful the CIA is. Now the CIA comes to some lower ranking soldiers and gives them orders. You expect the soldiers to not follow them? That is what the chain of command gets you.

Right, the lower ranking soldiers will do as they are told, no doubt. But, another sad thing about all of this is, it's only the lower ranking soldiers that are facing the music for all of this. This sort of institutionalized torture starts at the top... the very top.

Exactly. That is why I said I feel sorry for the soldiers. Don't think for a minute, unless they are sociopaths, that they will have some long term guilt over this as well.

 

[Darkhawk28]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: aidanjm
are people aware that salon has obtained the full set of pics from Abu Graib? they are publishing some of them, which haven't been seen before, on their web site:
http://salon.com/news/feature/2006/02/16/abu_ghraib/

One has to ask, how long these guys were naked and really, why did they take pictures?

Prisoners are usually strip searched...even here in the US.

I feel bad for the soldiers, who were probably just following the orders of the CIA.

it's pretty humilating to be stripped naked in a concrete cell, then posed in abnormal positions or tied up with a bag over your head, and then have pics taken.

also, some of the prisoners were sodomized and murdered, which is utterly unacceptable.

On the sodomy I 100 % agree with you. As far as the murder if a prisoner some how managed to get a weapon or was dangerous by some other means I can see how they might have been killed, but thats it.

I do think they should not have been left naked, posed naked, and had their pictures taken.

But think of if this way...we have been told for years about how great and powerful the CIA is. Now the CIA comes to some lower ranking soldiers and gives them orders. You expect the soldiers to not follow them? That is what the chain of command gets you.

Right, the lower ranking soldiers will do as they are told, no doubt. But, another sad thing about all of this is, it's only the lower ranking soldiers that are facing the music for all of this. This sort of institutionalized torture starts at the top... the very top.

Exactly. That is why I said I feel sorry for the soldiers. Don't think for a minute, unless they are sociopaths, that they will have some long term guilt over this as well.

Some of the soldiers they picked for these posts had histories of abuse at detention facilities here in the states, so to some degree, some of them are/were sociopaths, but I suspect even that number is relatively low.

As General Karpinski has stated, they would throw her and her staff out at night and then would have their men come in and do these things. They knew who could be trusted to do these sort of things, could be cajoled into doing these things and those who couldn't be.

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Some of the soldiers they picked for these posts had histories of abuse at detention facilities here in the states, so to some degree, some of them are/were sociopaths, but I suspect even that number is relatively low.

As General Karpinski has stated, they would throw her and her staff out at night and then would have their men come in and do these things. They knew who could be trusted to do these sort of things, could be cajoled into doing these things and those who couldn't be.

You would think a General would have a bit more say. But I guess if the CIA's orders are coming from Rummy or the Dubya, what can you do?

 

[Wheezer]

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: aidanjm
are people aware that salon has obtained the full set of pics from Abu Graib? they are publishing some of them, which haven't been seen before, on their web site:
http://salon.com/news/feature/2006/02/16/abu_ghraib/

One has to ask, how long these guys were naked and really, why did they take pictures?

Prisoners are usually strip searched...even here in the US.

I feel bad for the soldiers, who were probably just following the orders of the CIA.

it's pretty humilating to be stripped naked in a concrete cell, then posed in abnormal positions or tied up with a bag over your head, and then have pics taken.

also, some of the prisoners were sodomized and murdered, which is utterly unacceptable.

Humilitation IS NOT torture...it it was then every college frat needs to be shut down, and all school children need to be reprimanded not to toture thier classmates.

As for the sodomy and other physical abuses I will agree.

 

[Darkhawk28]

Originally posted by: Wheezer

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: aidanjm
are people aware that salon has obtained the full set of pics from Abu Graib? they are publishing some of them, which haven't been seen before, on their web site:
http://salon.com/news/feature/2006/02/16/abu_ghraib/

One has to ask, how long these guys were naked and really, why did they take pictures?

Prisoners are usually strip searched...even here in the US.

I feel bad for the soldiers, who were probably just following the orders of the CIA.

it's pretty humilating to be stripped naked in a concrete cell, then posed in abnormal positions or tied up with a bag over your head, and then have pics taken.

also, some of the prisoners were sodomized and murdered, which is utterly unacceptable.

Humilitation IS NOT torture...it it was then every college frat needs to be shut down, and all school children need to be reprimanded not to toture thier classmates.

As for the sodomy and other physical abuses I will agree.

But it IS against the Geneva Conventions.

 

[Darkhawk28]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Some of the soldiers they picked for these posts had histories of abuse at detention facilities here in the states, so to some degree, some of them are/were sociopaths, but I suspect even that number is relatively low.

As General Karpinski has stated, they would throw her and her staff out at night and then would have their men come in and do these things. They knew who could be trusted to do these sort of things, could be cajoled into doing these things and those who couldn't be.

You would think a General would have a bit more say. But I guess if the CIA's orders are coming from Rummy or the Dubya, what can you do?

Exactly.

 

[daveymark]

WHOA - those abu ghraib pics NSFW