Some questions

[Terzo]

So I started stronglifts with a friend, and once we got into it I found I was enjoying myself. However, there are two things that bother me.

1. How are you supposed to spot the overhead press and barbell row? I haven't been able to figure anything out.

2. Is it normal to suck at half the exercises? So far, I'm feel confident when we tackle the squats, benches, deadlifts, and dips. But every time I struggle with pull/chin ups, overheads, and rows. For what it's worth, our last set of overhead/rows was 80 pounds total, whereas we're at 110 total for the bench.

 

[scootermaster]

Originally posted by: Terzo
So I started stronglifts with a friend, and once we got into it I found I was enjoying myself. However, there are two things that bother me.

1. How are you supposed to spot the overhead press and barbell row? I haven't been able to figure anything out.

You don't. The point isn't to consistently go to failure anyway, so you should be doing a weight that allows you to finish your sets (give or take). Even if you do miss a rep, you just miss it; there is not spotting for those two.

2. Is it normal to suck at half the exercises? So far, I'm feel confident when we tackle the squats, benches, deadlifts, and dips. But every time I struggle with pull/chin ups, overheads, and rows. For what it's worth, our last set of overhead/rows was 80 pounds total, whereas we're at 110 total for the bench.

No. There are no "good" exercises and no "sucky" exercises. There's only work. So if something is a struggle, that probably means you're doing it correctly. Don't worry about it, that's how it's supposed to be.

 

[GenHoth]

Think I will expand on scootermaster's response. For the over head press the resting position is the same as the rack. You should never be dropping the weight or really getting help from someone else (use a push press to finish a last rep if need be) With a row, if you can make the rep you just drop it. No biggie.

 

[brikis98]

Terzo - all the questions you've asked are answered in Rippetoe's Starging Strength book. I highly recommend you buy it and read it through as it is the ultimate resource for barbell exercises.

Originally posted by: Terzo
1. How are you supposed to spot the overhead press and barbell row? I haven't been able to figure anything out.

You don't. Proper spotting technique is very important to understand for your own safety, so at the risk of repeating what you may know, here are some general tips:

* The ONLY role of a spotter is to ensure the safety of the lifter.
* Therefore, a spotter is only allowed/necessary for exercises where being unable to finish a rep puts the lifter in danger.
* A spotter should ONLY help with a rep if it is clear that the lifter cannot complete that rep by himself. The typical indication is that the bar has stopped moving or started moving in the wrong direction.
* Once a spotter has helped, the set is over. Don't try another rep.
* Any reps a spotter helped with don't count. After all, the lifter didn't actual lift that weight himself.
* Use only ONE spotter, never two. No matter how much they try, two people can never work in perfect unison, so someone will end up tilting the weight, which only makes matters worse. The only exception is if you are a professional power lifter putting up weights that exceed one person's ability to spot, but I doubt that applies to you

Let me reiterate the key point: the spotter ONLY helps out if the lifter clearly cannot complete the rep. Once the spotter intervenes, that set is finished. The spotter does NOT help the lifter on every rep like some guys do at the gym. All too often you see one guy doing bench press and his "spotter" doing shrugs. You'd be amazed at the weight two people can lift together that way...

Here is a break down by exercise:

* Squat: if you are squatting in a power rack with safety bars, no spotter is necessary. Set the safety bars at the appropriate height before starting the set and if the lifter can't get a rep up, the lifter should just squat all the way back down and let the weight fall onto the safety bars. If you are using bumper plates, you can also just let the weight fall to the floor (make sure no one is nearby!). Practice this with light weight so you know how to do it before you get in trouble.

If neither of these options is possible, then ONE person can provide a spot to help finish the rep. It is quite tricky to do properly, so the power cage or bumper plates are definitely the best option. The spotter should stand behind the lifter, and if the lifter can't finish a rep, the spotter should place his hands on the bar just outside the lifter's hands and, as much as possible, try to lift some of the weight up with the lifter. Remember, you spot the bar, not the lifter, so don't grab him around the waist like some people do.

* Bench press: this is the only lift where a spotter is truly necessary. The spotter can help the lifter unrack the weight (called a "lift") at the beginning of a set, but afterwards, the spotter moves out of the way. If the spotter sees that the lifter can't finish a rep (the weight is standing still or coming back down), he can come in, place both hands on the bar in between the lifter's hands and help get the weight back up. Make sure to pull the weight UP first (ie, have the lifter properly lock out the rep) and only then rack it. If you try to pull the bar onto the pins immediately, you may pull back too much and end up with the bar UNDER the pins, which isn't good.

* Overhead press: no spotting is allowed. If the lifter can't finish the rep, he should either drop the weight to the floor (if you have bumper plates) or just rack it on his shoulders and then lower it back down. Practice this with light weight before you do heavy weight so you know what to do if you get in trouble. Attempting to spot this overhead press is dangerous, as missed reps are sometimes dropped, and the spotter may put himself and the lifter in danger by being in the way.

* Deadlift, barbell row, power clean, pull-up, dip, and everything else: no spotting is allowed or needed. If you can't finish the rep just put the weight down or drop it if you are using bumper plates. There is no danger involved so no spotter is necessary.

Originally posted by: Terzo
2. Is it normal to suck at half the exercises? So far, I'm feel confident when we tackle the squats, benches, deadlifts, and dips. But every time I struggle with pull/chin ups, overheads, and rows. For what it's worth, our last set of overhead/rows was 80 pounds total, whereas we're at 110 total for the bench.

For the average trained lifter, the core lifts, from strongest to weakest will usually be:

deadlift > squat > bench > power clean > press

The barbell row will usually be between bench and power cleans. Obviously, this can vary depending on your training, but this order will apply to most people. You will not do the same weight for every exercise, and you shouldn't expect to. If you check out the weightlifting performance standards, for example, a typical 165lbs novice is expected to deadlift 254, squat 204, bench press 152, clean 147, and overhead press 102.

So, you benching 110 and doing 80 for overhead press and rows seems pretty normal.

 

[Deeko]

Originally posted by: brikis98
Terzo - all the questions you've asked are answered in Rippetoe's Starging Strength book. I highly recommend you buy it and read it through as it is the ultimate resource for barbell exercises.

Originally posted by: Terzo
1. How are you supposed to spot the overhead press and barbell row? I haven't been able to figure anything out.

* Any reps a spotter helped with don't count. After all, the lifter didn't actual lift that weight himself.

I understand this is pulled from SS, but, I never fully understood the logic behind this. Doesn't "count"? Meaning, like, I can't say "oh I did 5 reps" when I really did 4? If you're lifting for the sake of getting stronger, which is what SS is all about, it still "counts" because the lifter DID perform work to lift the weight. It counts in that you worked the muscle to complete failure.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: Deeko
I understand this is pulled from SS, but, I never fully understood the logic behind this. Doesn't "count"? Meaning, like, I can't say "oh I did 5 reps" when I really did 4? If you're lifting for the sake of getting stronger, which is what SS is all about, it still "counts" because the lifter DID perform work to lift the weight. It counts in that you worked the muscle to complete failure.

I think saying it doesn't "count" if the spotter helped has several purposes:

1. It helps to prevent the bad habit of the spotter helping on every rep. As I mentioned earlier, the bench press should not be a team lift
2. It helps with deciding what to do on the next workout: for example, if you have the mentality that the 5th rep didn't count because the spotter helped, then perhaps you shouldn't go up in weight for the next workout. In other words, it can prevent people from letting their ego get in the way and jumping up in weight way too quickly.
3. Of a lesser concern for most people, but still worth mentioning: in actual weight lifting competitions, the rep actually doesn't count if a spotter helped.

 

[scootermaster]

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: brikis98
Terzo - all the questions you've asked are answered in Rippetoe's Starging Strength book. I highly recommend you buy it and read it through as it is the ultimate resource for barbell exercises.

Originally posted by: Terzo
1. How are you supposed to spot the overhead press and barbell row? I haven't been able to figure anything out.

* Any reps a spotter helped with don't count. After all, the lifter didn't actual lift that weight himself.

I understand this is pulled from SS, but, I never fully understood the logic behind this. Doesn't "count"? Meaning, like, I can't say "oh I did 5 reps" when I really did 4? If you're lifting for the sake of getting stronger, which is what SS is all about, it still "counts" because the lifter DID perform work to lift the weight. It counts in that you worked the muscle to complete failure.

You're missing the point. Sure, it counts in terms of work, but it doesn't count in terms of programming, which is probably more important anyway. For example, if you're supposed to move up when you've finished 3 sets of 10 (or whatever) and you're spotted on the last rep of the last two sets, you haven't done 3 x 10, you've done 1x10, 2x9, so you can't move up.

 

[Deeko]

Yea, that all makes sense - it just goes contrary to some other things I've read. For example, if you read Arnold's Encyclopedia of Bodybuilding (which actually has a lot of really good information in it, it's not just about bodybuilding), he says you should never stop lifting at an arbitrary number - you should lift to failure every set, and the only way to truly lift to failure is by going until you need your spotter's help.

Seeing as I generally lift alone and don't have a spotter, it's a moot point to me, I just find the differences in philosophy interesting.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: Deeko
Yea, that all makes sense - it just goes contrary to some other things I've read. For example, if you read Arnold's Encyclopedia of Bodybuilding (which actually has a lot of really good information in it, it's not just about bodybuilding), he says you should never stop lifting at an arbitrary number - you should lift to failure every set, and the only way to truly lift to failure is by going until you need your spotter's help.

Seeing as I generally lift alone and don't have a spotter, it's a moot point to me, I just find the differences in philosophy interesting.

Although lifting to failure every now and then probably has nice benefits - perhaps more hypertrophy and a whole lot of muscle "pump" (which arnold loved) - doing it every time is probably a very quick road to overtraining. Of course, if you're doing steroids and have insane genetics like arnie, I'm sure it'll work wonders

 

[presidentender]

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: Deeko
Yea, that all makes sense - it just goes contrary to some other things I've read. For example, if you read Arnold's Encyclopedia of Bodybuilding (which actually has a lot of really good information in it, it's not just about bodybuilding), he says you should never stop lifting at an arbitrary number - you should lift to failure every set, and the only way to truly lift to failure is by going until you need your spotter's help.

Seeing as I generally lift alone and don't have a spotter, it's a moot point to me, I just find the differences in philosophy interesting.

Although lifting to failure every now and then probably has nice benefits - perhaps more hypertrophy and a whole lot of muscle "pump" (which arnold loved) - doing it every time is probably a very quick road to overtraining. Of course, if you're doing steroids and have insane genetics like arnie, I'm sure it'll work wonders

In some cases, incredible amounts of protein (with freeform aminos if you can afford them) can let you get away with what would be overtraining on a different diet.

 

[Terzo]

Thanks for the responses. In regards to spotting, we haven't had to assist each other yet. I was just wondering what to do when that time comes.

Also, brikis98, you recommend Starting Strength. Does that book cover what to do when (this is what I'm told) you "out grow" the strong lifts program?

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: Terzo
Thanks for the responses. In regards to spotting, we haven't had to assist each other yet. I was just wondering what to do when that time comes.

Also, brikis98, you recommend Starting Strength. Does that book cover what to do when (this is what I'm told) you "out grow" the strong lifts program?

The first thing to note is that Starting Strength is primarily an instruction manual that teaches you how to do the lifts and why you do them. It is not focused on "programming" - that is, figuring out what routine you should do. Having said that, it does outline a beginner's routine and explains that you do it until all your lifts stall and several resets don't help. When that happens, you are no longer a beginner and need an intermediate program, which is not covered in the book.

For intermediate routines, you may want to consider Rippetoe's Practical Programming book, although I haven't read it myself, so I can't comment. You can also take a look at the Bill Starr 5x5 routine which follows the same principles as SL 5x5 and SS, but is tailored towards the intermediate lifter.

It is worth mentioning that you still have a *LONG* way to go before you will "out grow" SS or SL 5x5. An "intermediate lifter" is usually defined as someone with a good 2 years of experience of consistent weight lifting. If you follow these beginner routines properly and supplement them with a good diet, 2 years is a pretty good guess for how long you'll be able to make progress with them before switching to an intermediate routine.

 

[Terzo]

Will they really last 2 years?

Just looking at squats, and assuming you start with the bar, you increase weight by 60 pounds every month. I know that eventually you'll fail, and have to perform soft/hard deloads, but even then I feel like you'll be lifting a ridiculous amount within two years.
Just wondering.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: Terzo
Will they really last 2 years?

Just looking at squats, and assuming you start with the bar, you increase weight by 60 pounds every month. I know that eventually you'll fail, and have to perform soft/hard deloads, but even then I feel like you'll be lifting a ridiculous amount within two years.
Just wondering.

Just out of curiosity, where did you get the 60 pounds per month figure from? In general, everyone makes huge gains when they start, but these naturally slow down no matter what program you do. However, as long as you're still making reasonable progress - even adding, ~2.5lbs per week to your deadlift and squat - you should keep at it. It may not seem like much, but 2.5lbs per week is around 120lbs per year, which is some terrific progress.

I had done other workout routines before SS, so I'm not a good case study, but I worked out with two guys that more or less did SS as their first intro to weightlifting. They were squatting ~115x5 when they began and after a year, they are up to ~205x5, despite a piss poor diet and missing plenty of workouts. That's a 90lbs increase in 1 year and they are nowhere near plateauing. I'd estimate they could go another year, and get their squat up to ~250x5+ before they'd need an intermediate program.

Obviously, YMMV. How long SS works for you will depend on where you started, your genetics, your dedication, your diet, your form, etc. However, I just don't want people having the notion that the first time they stall, they are all of a sudden an intermediate and should move on to a different program. One reasonable standard that may be worth looking at for reference are the Strength Standards which define expected 1RM performance for lifters of varying experience. For example, a 165lbs male is considered an "intermediate" lifter when he can deadlift 293, squat 250, bench 187, clean 180 and press 129. If you get to these numbers and begin to stall, and can't break through the plateau after a few resets, then you know it's time for a new program.

 

[Terzo]

I got the 60 pounds a month from strong lifts. It has you squatting 3 times a week, each time increasing weight by 5 pounds if you don't fail. 3 times a week by 4 weeks in a month by 5 pounds each workout is 60 pounds a month. If you want to reference:
http://stronglifts.com/strongl...ngth-training-program/

 

[MegaVovaN]

Originally posted by: Terzo
I got the 60 pounds a month from strong lifts. It has you squatting 3 times a week, each time increasing weight by 5 pounds if you don't fail. 3 times a week by 4 weeks in a month by 5 pounds each workout is 60 pounds a month. If you want to reference:
http://stronglifts.com/strongl...ngth-training-program/

Then this is best-case scenario. It assumes that
-you don't fail (can add each workout)
-don't skip a single workout

In reality, s**t happens and you end up skipping a few workouts, not being able to add weight on others (to work on form...never add if your form is bad).

Still, SS is impressive. I went from 100 lb squats to 175 lb in like a month and a half, maybe 2 months...

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: Terzo
I got the 60 pounds a month from strong lifts. It has you squatting 3 times a week, each time increasing weight by 5 pounds if you don't fail. 3 times a week by 4 weeks in a month by 5 pounds each workout is 60 pounds a month. If you want to reference:
http://stronglifts.com/strongl...ngth-training-program/

From the Stronglifts website:

Stalling

You won?t be able to add weight every workout indefinitely. You?ll stall on the Overhead Press first. Next the Bench Press. Then the Squat. And finally the Deadlift. There are the 3 scenario?s for stalling:

1. You didn?t achieve 5×5. Retry up to 3 times. Bad days happen.
2. You didn?t achieve 5×5 for 3 workouts. Perform a soft deload.
3. Achieved reps regress as workouts go by. Fatigue sets in. Hard deload.

After 2 hard deloads on the Squat, you?re past the beginner stage. Switch to the Beginner Strength Training Program II.

You'll be able to add 5lbs per workout when you first start, but you can't keep that up for long. As the weight gets heavier, you'll frequently have a workout where you don't quite get the 5x5, and you might have to try it again for a few workouts. On average, this will slow your progress from 5lbs per workout to 5lbs per week. After a while, if you stall, you'll have to do various deloads - moving down in weight before moving back up - which reduces the average weight you add per week even more. But even if it cuts the average in half - down to 2.5lbs per week - that's still a good 120lbs per year.

That's just the way it works - the early gains are really quick, the later ones get harder and harder. Eventually, making gains with a linear beginner's program becomes just too difficult, and it's time to switch, but as I've said before, that can take a long time.

 

[GenHoth]

Originally posted by: brikis98

One reasonable standard that may be worth looking at for reference are the Strength Standards which define expected 1RM performance for lifters of varying experience. For example, a 165lbs male is considered an "intermediate" lifter when he can deadlift 293, squat 250, bench 187, clean 180 and press 129. If you get to these numbers and begin to stall, and can't break through the plateau after a few resets, then you know it's time for a new program.

IMO being an intermediate lifter has more to it that the lifts you can perform. Before I got sick I was past all of those, but I think that knowledge, patients and time under the bar is a much better indicator. Perhaps even adding dedication, in a couple months I moved my squat from just the bar back to 205 because I dedicated myself and didn't miss workouts! I feel much more sound now with much more experience and hope to soon reach an intermediate level again. (another month, maybe two)

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: GenHoth

Originally posted by: brikis98

One reasonable standard that may be worth looking at for reference are the Strength Standards which define expected 1RM performance for lifters of varying experience. For example, a 165lbs male is considered an "intermediate" lifter when he can deadlift 293, squat 250, bench 187, clean 180 and press 129. If you get to these numbers and begin to stall, and can't break through the plateau after a few resets, then you know it's time for a new program.

IMO being an intermediate lifter has more to it that the lifts you can perform. Before I got sick I was past all of those, but I think that knowledge, patients and time under the bar is a much better indicator. Perhaps even adding dedication, in a couple months I moved my squat from just the bar back to 205 because I dedicated myself and didn't miss workouts! I feel much more sound now with much more experience and hope to soon reach an intermediate level again. (another month, maybe two)

That's why I clearly wrote that the strength standards are "worth looking at for reference". In other words, those strength standards are a reasonable indication of your weight lifting level so you can somewhat gauge where you stand. However, they are no more than a useful guide. The actual decision of whether you should switch to an intermediate level workout should only happen if the linear progression of a beginner program stops working for you after multiple resets.