Some Democrats Are Sensing Missed Opportunities

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Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
I actually agree with you....to a point JRenz. The message is there, if you do the legwork to find it. However, it isn't at the one place where it should be. I went to DNC.org so that I could just link you to their platform stances/talking points on topics and lo and behold, their "Agenda" page sux. It was a paragraph or two blurb on each hot-button topic, which isn't exactly a bad thing, with a "Read more about this topic" link at the end of each section.

I clicked the links and all there was, were press releases and stories that generally related to the topics. Now, I would have liked (and actually expected) to either have a .pdf open up or be taken to a page that elaborated on the "teaser". This was not the case. I know, being a left-leaning independant for 15+ years what the agenda is. Someone like you, however, that is out there researching, arguing a point or just trying to find which of the two major parties that they more closely can associate with, would have very little clue except what they get from the media. Which isn't very flattering, IMHO.

I went to the RNC.org site and checked the same info and it was arranged so that any dunce could see what the talking points or stances on the issues were. They did it the right way.
I think this is largely due to the different styles, or perhaps cultures, of the two parties. The Republicans have a much more authoritarian, tow-the-line culture where the party leadership decides the message and all members are expected to adopt it verbatim. The Democrats have a more collaborative and consensus-driven approach, where individuals have their own positions and priorities, then work together to achieve a compromise. This creates a less uniform, i.e., more muddled message, and is more work for potential voters since they have to find out what the candidates stand for individually. They cannot just take the party platform as a one-stop shop. Unfortunately, when you have an inattentive and easily-manipulated electorate, the Republican approach is far more effective.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: jlmadyson
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: jlmadyson
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: jlmadyson
I don't think it is a question of respect, but a question of substance or lack thereof.
I think the Bush administration has conclusively proved substance is irrelevant to duping American voters. The entire campaign was based on innuendo, character assassination, empty rhetoric, blatant fear-mongering, and outright disinformation. I don't remember who coined the word "truthiness" (Stephen Colbert?), but he nailed it right on the head. The Bush administration has developed truthiness to a highly-refined science of manipulation.
That is the whole thing. I think this is where I believe the American people called BS in 2004, but yet we have these same old arguments.
Huh? My point is that the American people did not require substance to be duped into supporting Bush. Your "rebuttal" is they weren't duped because they said they weren't duped? Aside from diverting from my point, that's circular reasoning.
No, what I am saying though is that we have heard from the Democrat side of the aisle that we were all lied to time and time again, but yet why is that a majority of voters didn?t buy into this argument about lies in 2004? Because they were duped by the BushCos? [ Yes! ] They didn't buy it then and they are not going to buy into in November. They haven't been duped at all by the Democrat party they can see right through it.
They weren't duped by BushCo because they don't think they were duped? Again, circular reasoning. Once you know you were duped, by definition you are no longer duped.


Once again what are the real answers that the Democrats are proposing? What is their message on Iran going to be? Still haven't heard any real substance just "lies". Consequently, this is the very reason why Democrats have fumbled and the very reason they will be the minority party again come November.

As jrenz points out where are the solutions? I have yet to hear any.
That's because you aren't listening either.
 

jlmadyson

Platinum Member
Aug 13, 2004
2,201
0
0
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: jlmadyson
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: jlmadyson
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: jlmadyson
I don't think it is a question of respect, but a question of substance or lack thereof.
I think the Bush administration has conclusively proved substance is irrelevant to duping American voters. The entire campaign was based on innuendo, character assassination, empty rhetoric, blatant fear-mongering, and outright disinformation. I don't remember who coined the word "truthiness" (Stephen Colbert?), but he nailed it right on the head. The Bush administration has developed truthiness to a highly-refined science of manipulation.
That is the whole thing. I think this is where I believe the American people called BS in 2004, but yet we have these same old arguments.
Huh? My point is that the American people did not require substance to be duped into supporting Bush. Your "rebuttal" is they weren't duped because they said they weren't duped? Aside from diverting from my point, that's circular reasoning.
No, what I am saying though is that we have heard from the Democrat side of the aisle that we were all lied to time and time again, but yet why is that a majority of voters didn?t buy into this argument about lies in 2004? Because they were duped by the BushCos? [ Yes! ] They didn't buy it then and they are not going to buy into in November. They haven't been duped at all by the Democrat party they can see right through it.

They weren't duped by BushCo because they don't think they were duped? Again, circular reasoning. Once you know you were duped, by definition you are no longer duped.


Once again what are the real answers that the Democrats are proposing? What is their message on Iran going to be? Still haven't heard any real substance just "lies". Consequently, this is the very reason why Democrats have fumbled and the very reason they will be the minority party again come November.

As jrenz points out where are the solutions? I have yet to hear any.
That's because you aren't listening either.

Funny, because not one solution or proposal for that matter had been offered to the questions I asked. Who isn't listening now. Now you may want to listen to this you can provide all the talking points you want but the fact is the article is right on point.

 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
Originally posted by: jlmadyson
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: jlmadyson
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: jlmadyson
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: jlmadyson
I don't think it is a question of respect, but a question of substance or lack thereof.
I think the Bush administration has conclusively proved substance is irrelevant to duping American voters. The entire campaign was based on innuendo, character assassination, empty rhetoric, blatant fear-mongering, and outright disinformation. I don't remember who coined the word "truthiness" (Stephen Colbert?), but he nailed it right on the head. The Bush administration has developed truthiness to a highly-refined science of manipulation.
That is the whole thing. I think this is where I believe the American people called BS in 2004, but yet we have these same old arguments.
Huh? My point is that the American people did not require substance to be duped into supporting Bush. Your "rebuttal" is they weren't duped because they said they weren't duped? Aside from diverting from my point, that's circular reasoning.
No, what I am saying though is that we have heard from the Democrat side of the aisle that we were all lied to time and time again, but yet why is that a majority of voters didn?t buy into this argument about lies in 2004? Because they were duped by the BushCos? [ Yes! ] They didn't buy it then and they are not going to buy into in November. They haven't been duped at all by the Democrat party they can see right through it.

They weren't duped by BushCo because they don't think they were duped? Again, circular reasoning. Once you know you were duped, by definition you are no longer duped.


Once again what are the real answers that the Democrats are proposing? What is their message on Iran going to be? Still haven't heard any real substance just "lies". Consequently, this is the very reason why Democrats have fumbled and the very reason they will be the minority party again come November.

As jrenz points out where are the solutions? I have yet to hear any.
That's because you aren't listening either.

Funny, because not one solution or proposal for that matter had been offered to the questions I asked. Who isn't listening now. Now you may want to listen to this you can provide all the talking points you want but the fact is the article is right on point.

Once again.....the answers are there for those that seek them out.

Senator seeks to stop gasoline exports to Iran

I also found this post on another site that I would like for you to reply to. The poster makes some very valid point WRT Iran. I don't agree with all of the comments, but I have bolded a couple that I would like you to respond to and to also clearly define what your position or that of the Bush administration is. I haven't heard anything from them except for Iraq-like hyperbole and really don't have a clue as to what they are proposing be done.

An article I saw today specifically states that both the Republicans and the Democrats are "fractured" over the Iran issue, devolving into four camps: the "hawks", the "appeasers", the "negotiators", and the "realists".

Let me lay out the FACTS again:

1) Nothing Iran is doing is illegal under its obligations to the NPT.

2) Even if Iran began enriching unanium for the purpose of producing a nuclear weapon, it would STILL be FIVE TO TEN YEARS before they can even produce ONE single gun-model nuclear weapon - let alone one that can be DELIVERED by any missile they currently have in their inventory or are developing.

3) The Iranians have gone FAR beyond their obligations under the NPT to attempt to satisfy the Europeans and the IAEA that their intentions are peaceful. (I'm not saying they DON'T want a nuclear weapon, even if THEY say that. I'm assuming they DO. But NOTHING they've done publicly indicates that they are currently pursuing such.)

4) The Iranians already HAVE the ultimate nuclear weapon - the oil bourse denominated in Euros which goes into operation in March of this year. The Iranian nuclear program is just a SMOKESCREEN for the REAL threat to the United States - and the neocons know this. This article here lays it all out:

http://www.countercurrents.org/us-petrov200106.htm

5) Any argument based on the current President Ahmadinejad's hyperbolic comments about Israel and the Holocaust is IRRELEVANT to the discussion. These comments are propaganda on a par with Bush's proclamations about "spreading democracy" everywhere. It's ruminant evacuation and has nothing to do with actual government policies in Iran.

6) As long as Israel has nuclear weapons and the US - also a possessor of nuclear weapons - is willing to threaten non-nuclear states with nuclear weapons - as we have EXPLICITLY done - then EVERY country in the Middle East will want nuclear weapons. Remove the threat - remove the proliferation. It's that fraggin' simple, folks! Force Israel to unilaterally diasrm ALL of its nuclear weapons. Granted, every state is fascist by definition, and all of them will continue to want to be the Big Kahuna in the region, so many of them might still want to obtain such weapons. But it will be a lot easier to negotiate to restrain them in the face of the fact that there are no weapons already in the region than it will be to do so with Israel sitting there with 100-400 weapons, including nuclear cruise missiles on submarines in the Gulf - owned by a state whose Zionist idealogue leaders have repeatedly stated their intention to dominate the entire Middle East from the Nile to the Euphrates.

7) There is NO incentive for anybody dealing with Iran - Russia, China, Europe - to pressure Iran not to go nuclear - and certainly no incentive to impose sanctions on Iran. Iran is a major trading partner with Russia (albeit an oil competitor). China needs Iran's oil. India and Pakistan are planning to building pipelines from Iran into India. None of these countries are in any threat from a nuclear-armed Iran (with the possible exception of Pakistan, and that is still unlikely.)

8) Therefore, sanctions and embargoes are not going to work. Iran is not Libya. Iran is not Iraq. The situations are sufficiently different that it is very unlikely sanctions - which were ineffective in Iraq except to kill millions of children - are likely to work well. One should also question the use of sanctions against ANY country - considering the effects on Iraq. Do we want to starve another half million children just to pressure another government? Do the people on this site want to say with Madeleine Allbright, "Well, we think it's worth it?"

9) The article recommends policy change, rather than regime change. Yes, this is a very good idea. And how do you expect the Bush administration to implement it, when you have Christian neocon fanatics like John Bolton at the helm at the UN? When you have Zionist fanatics like Benjamin Netanyahu in Israel urging military strikes on Iran with or without the support of the US military?
 

jlmadyson

Platinum Member
Aug 13, 2004
2,201
0
0
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: jlmadyson
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: jlmadyson
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: jlmadyson
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: jlmadyson
I don't think it is a question of respect, but a question of substance or lack thereof.
I think the Bush administration has conclusively proved substance is irrelevant to duping American voters. The entire campaign was based on innuendo, character assassination, empty rhetoric, blatant fear-mongering, and outright disinformation. I don't remember who coined the word "truthiness" (Stephen Colbert?), but he nailed it right on the head. The Bush administration has developed truthiness to a highly-refined science of manipulation.
That is the whole thing. I think this is where I believe the American people called BS in 2004, but yet we have these same old arguments.
Huh? My point is that the American people did not require substance to be duped into supporting Bush. Your "rebuttal" is they weren't duped because they said they weren't duped? Aside from diverting from my point, that's circular reasoning.
No, what I am saying though is that we have heard from the Democrat side of the aisle that we were all lied to time and time again, but yet why is that a majority of voters didn?t buy into this argument about lies in 2004? Because they were duped by the BushCos? [ Yes! ] They didn't buy it then and they are not going to buy into in November. They haven't been duped at all by the Democrat party they can see right through it.

They weren't duped by BushCo because they don't think they were duped? Again, circular reasoning. Once you know you were duped, by definition you are no longer duped.


Once again what are the real answers that the Democrats are proposing? What is their message on Iran going to be? Still haven't heard any real substance just "lies". Consequently, this is the very reason why Democrats have fumbled and the very reason they will be the minority party again come November.

As jrenz points out where are the solutions? I have yet to hear any.
That's because you aren't listening either.

Funny, because not one solution or proposal for that matter had been offered to the questions I asked. Who isn't listening now. Now you may want to listen to this you can provide all the talking points you want but the fact is the article is right on point.

Once again.....the answers are there for those that seek them out.

Senator seeks to stop gasoline exports to Iran

I also found this post on another site that I would like for you to reply to. The poster makes some very valid point WRT Iran. I don't agree with all of the comments, but I have bolded a couple that I would like you to respond to and to also clearly define what your position or that of the Bush administration is. I haven't heard anything from them except for Iraq-like hyperbole and really don't have a clue as to what they are proposing be done.

An article I saw today specifically states that both the Republicans and the Democrats are "fractured" over the Iran issue, devolving into four camps: the "hawks", the "appeasers", the "negotiators", and the "realists".

Let me lay out the FACTS again:

1) Nothing Iran is doing is illegal under its obligations to the NPT.

2) Even if Iran began enriching unanium for the purpose of producing a nuclear weapon, it would STILL be FIVE TO TEN YEARS before they can even produce ONE single gun-model nuclear weapon - let alone one that can be DELIVERED by any missile they currently have in their inventory or are developing.

3) The Iranians have gone FAR beyond their obligations under the NPT to attempt to satisfy the Europeans and the IAEA that their intentions are peaceful. (I'm not saying they DON'T want a nuclear weapon, even if THEY say that. I'm assuming they DO. But NOTHING they've done publicly indicates that they are currently pursuing such.)

4) The Iranians already HAVE the ultimate nuclear weapon - the oil bourse denominated in Euros which goes into operation in March of this year. The Iranian nuclear program is just a SMOKESCREEN for the REAL threat to the United States - and the neocons know this. This article here lays it all out:

http://www.countercurrents.org/us-petrov200106.htm

5) Any argument based on the current President Ahmadinejad's hyperbolic comments about Israel and the Holocaust is IRRELEVANT to the discussion. These comments are propaganda on a par with Bush's proclamations about "spreading democracy" everywhere. It's ruminant evacuation and has nothing to do with actual government policies in Iran.

6) As long as Israel has nuclear weapons and the US - also a possessor of nuclear weapons - is willing to threaten non-nuclear states with nuclear weapons - as we have EXPLICITLY done - then EVERY country in the Middle East will want nuclear weapons. Remove the threat - remove the proliferation. It's that fraggin' simple, folks! Force Israel to unilaterally diasrm ALL of its nuclear weapons. Granted, every state is fascist by definition, and all of them will continue to want to be the Big Kahuna in the region, so many of them might still want to obtain such weapons. But it will be a lot easier to negotiate to restrain them in the face of the fact that there are no weapons already in the region than it will be to do so with Israel sitting there with 100-400 weapons, including nuclear cruise missiles on submarines in the Gulf - owned by a state whose Zionist idealogue leaders have repeatedly stated their intention to dominate the entire Middle East from the Nile to the Euphrates.

7) There is NO incentive for anybody dealing with Iran - Russia, China, Europe - to pressure Iran not to go nuclear - and certainly no incentive to impose sanctions on Iran. Iran is a major trading partner with Russia (albeit an oil competitor). China needs Iran's oil. India and Pakistan are planning to building pipelines from Iran into India. None of these countries are in any threat from a nuclear-armed Iran (with the possible exception of Pakistan, and that is still unlikely.)

8) Therefore, sanctions and embargoes are not going to work. Iran is not Libya. Iran is not Iraq. The situations are sufficiently different that it is very unlikely sanctions - which were ineffective in Iraq except to kill millions of children - are likely to work well. One should also question the use of sanctions against ANY country - considering the effects on Iraq. Do we want to starve another half million children just to pressure another government? Do the people on this site want to say with Madeleine Allbright, "Well, we think it's worth it?"

9) The article recommends policy change, rather than regime change. Yes, this is a very good idea. And how do you expect the Bush administration to implement it, when you have Christian neocon fanatics like John Bolton at the helm at the UN? When you have Zionist fanatics like Benjamin Netanyahu in Israel urging military strikes on Iran with or without the support of the US military?

The only thing I can say about the points you bolded is if Iran were doing there part to meet the obligations of the IAEA why did they refer them to the council?

But more importantly which is the correct approach? Bayh's take or the points you bolded? Further, will the Democrat party get behind Bayh's amendment because the points you bolded and Bayh's view seem quite at opposite ends.

"To forestall the need for nuclear force, we need tough action now, including economic sanctions, cultural sanctions, cutting off their supply of gasoline, (arms) sales, those kind of things, to convince the radical leaders of Iran that nuclear weapons are something they just cannot have," Bayh said on Fox News Channel's "Fox and Friends" morning program.

Also there is the question of how will the Democrats take the House and Senate in 06?
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: jlmadyson
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: jlmadyson
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: jlmadyson
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: jlmadyson
I don't think it is a question of respect, but a question of substance or lack thereof.
I think the Bush administration has conclusively proved substance is irrelevant to duping American voters. The entire campaign was based on innuendo, character assassination, empty rhetoric, blatant fear-mongering, and outright disinformation. I don't remember who coined the word "truthiness" (Stephen Colbert?), but he nailed it right on the head. The Bush administration has developed truthiness to a highly-refined science of manipulation.
That is the whole thing. I think this is where I believe the American people called BS in 2004, but yet we have these same old arguments.
Huh? My point is that the American people did not require substance to be duped into supporting Bush. Your "rebuttal" is they weren't duped because they said they weren't duped? Aside from diverting from my point, that's circular reasoning.
No, what I am saying though is that we have heard from the Democrat side of the aisle that we were all lied to time and time again, but yet why is that a majority of voters didn?t buy into this argument about lies in 2004? Because they were duped by the BushCos? [ Yes! ] They didn't buy it then and they are not going to buy into in November. They haven't been duped at all by the Democrat party they can see right through it.
They weren't duped by BushCo because they don't think they were duped? Again, circular reasoning. Once you know you were duped, by definition you are no longer duped.


Once again what are the real answers that the Democrats are proposing? What is their message on Iran going to be? Still haven't heard any real substance just "lies". Consequently, this is the very reason why Democrats have fumbled and the very reason they will be the minority party again come November.

As jrenz points out where are the solutions? I have yet to hear any.
That's because you aren't listening either.
Funny, because not one solution or proposal for that matter had been offered to the questions I asked. Who isn't listening now. Now you may want to listen to this you can provide all the talking points you want but the fact is the article is right on point.
You're growing tiring. You continue to spin and evade without ever addressing points raised. Very dishonest, and it suggests you don't really believe your own rhetoric, or at least you've never thought about it enough to be able to support it. Let's review:
  1. I don't know what the Democrats' proposals are on Iran because I'm not a Democrat, nor do I receive any of their mailings, nor do I consider Iran that pressing compared to other issues, no matter how much the Bush propaganda machine beats their war drums.

    More to the point, you are creating a straw man to attack instead of responding to actual arguments. The Dems' position on Iran specifically is irrelevant to the original claim that the Dems have "no possible solutions to our major problems, such as SS". That is simply false. The Democrats did propose a number of alternatives to "fixing" Social Security, but the Bush camp dismissed all of them without consideration. (And as a side note, the whole premise of that example is a joke since Bush's plan did absolutely NOTHING to "fix" Social Security. It started dismantling it while handing a windfall to Wall Street.) Various Democrats have offered proposals to our other major problems, but again, the Bush camp consistently ignores them. If you aren't aware of them, that's because you get your (dis)information from Limbaugh and other Bush parrots instead of actually looking for nonpartisan sources of factual information.
  2. You have also diverted from your original assertion that the Democrats lack substance, apparently suggesting Republicans in general and Bush specifically did offer substance. As I said, the Bush 2004 campaign was based on innuendo, character assassination, empty rhetoric, blatant fear-mongering, and outright disinformation. You offered nothing to refute this, instead repeating your circular argument that Bush supporters weren't duped because they don't recognize they were duped. Irrational and irrelevant.
  3. You are in no position to accuse others of spouting talking points when you've repeatedly admitted (in other threads) that you ignore anything you disagree with.
  4. The "fact" is your opinion about the article is an opinion, NOT a fact. That said, your comment is another straw man. Kindly show us where I said the article is wrong.

 

jlmadyson

Platinum Member
Aug 13, 2004
2,201
0
0
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: jlmadyson
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: jlmadyson
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: jlmadyson
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: jlmadyson
I don't think it is a question of respect, but a question of substance or lack thereof.
I think the Bush administration has conclusively proved substance is irrelevant to duping American voters. The entire campaign was based on innuendo, character assassination, empty rhetoric, blatant fear-mongering, and outright disinformation. I don't remember who coined the word "truthiness" (Stephen Colbert?), but he nailed it right on the head. The Bush administration has developed truthiness to a highly-refined science of manipulation.
That is the whole thing. I think this is where I believe the American people called BS in 2004, but yet we have these same old arguments.
Huh? My point is that the American people did not require substance to be duped into supporting Bush. Your "rebuttal" is they weren't duped because they said they weren't duped? Aside from diverting from my point, that's circular reasoning.
No, what I am saying though is that we have heard from the Democrat side of the aisle that we were all lied to time and time again, but yet why is that a majority of voters didn?t buy into this argument about lies in 2004? Because they were duped by the BushCos? [ Yes! ] They didn't buy it then and they are not going to buy into in November. They haven't been duped at all by the Democrat party they can see right through it.
They weren't duped by BushCo because they don't think they were duped? Again, circular reasoning. Once you know you were duped, by definition you are no longer duped.


Once again what are the real answers that the Democrats are proposing? What is their message on Iran going to be? Still haven't heard any real substance just "lies". Consequently, this is the very reason why Democrats have fumbled and the very reason they will be the minority party again come November.

As jrenz points out where are the solutions? I have yet to hear any.
That's because you aren't listening either.
Funny, because not one solution or proposal for that matter had been offered to the questions I asked. Who isn't listening now. Now you may want to listen to this you can provide all the talking points you want but the fact is the article is right on point.
You're growing tiring. You continue to spin and evade without ever addressing points raised. Very dishonest, and it suggests you don't really believe your own rhetoric, or at least you've never thought about it enough to be able to support it. Let's review:
  1. I don't know what the Democrats' proposals are on Iran because I'm not a Democrat, nor do I receive any of their mailings, nor do I consider Iran that pressing compared to other issues, no matter how much the Bush propaganda machine beats their war drums.

    More to the point, you are creating a straw man to attack instead of responding to actual arguments. The Dems' position on Iran specifically is irrelevant to the original claim that the Dems have "no possible solutions to our major problems, such as SS". That is simply false. The Democrats did propose a number of alternatives to "fixing" Social Security, but the Bush camp dismissed all of them without consideration. (And as a side note, the whole premise of that example is a joke since Bush's plan did absolutely NOTHING to "fix" Social Security. It started dismantling it while handing a windfall to Wall Street.) Various Democrats have offered proposals to our other major problems, but again, the Bush camp consistently ignores them. If you aren't aware of them, that's because you get your (dis)information from Limbaugh and other Bush parrots instead of actually looking for nonpartisan sources of factual information.
  2. You have also diverted from your original assertion that the Democrats lack substance, apparently suggesting Republicans in general and Bush specifically did offer substance. As I said, the Bush 2004 campaign was based on innuendo, character assassination, empty rhetoric, blatant fear-mongering, and outright disinformation. You offered nothing to refute this, instead repeating your circular argument that Bush supporters weren't duped because they don't recognize they were duped. Irrational and irrelevant.
  3. You are in no position to accuse others of spouting talking points when you've repeatedly admitted (in other threads) that you ignore anything you disagree with.
  4. The "fact" is your opinion about the article is an opinion, NOT a fact. That said, your comment is another straw man. Kindly show us where I said the article is wrong.

1. That was the question I posed in the OP if you have no insight then why are you here.

2. Are you joking, you believe they were duped I do not. Is that a tautology no in fact it isn't.

3. Try to keep to the OP instead of just spouting off other threads.

4. Yes, quite true it is my opinion but I've heard only weak arguments to in fact state that the article is anything but true.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: jlmadyson
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
You're growing tiring. You continue to spin and evade without ever addressing points raised. Very dishonest, and it suggests you don't really believe your own rhetoric, or at least you've never thought about it enough to be able to support it. Let's review:
  1. I don't know what the Democrats' proposals are on Iran because I'm not a Democrat, nor do I receive any of their mailings, nor do I consider Iran that pressing compared to other issues, no matter how much the Bush propaganda machine beats their war drums.

    More to the point, you are creating a straw man to attack instead of responding to actual arguments. The Dems' position on Iran specifically is irrelevant to the original claim that the Dems have "no possible solutions to our major problems, such as SS". That is simply false. The Democrats did propose a number of alternatives to "fixing" Social Security, but the Bush camp dismissed all of them without consideration. (And as a side note, the whole premise of that example is a joke since Bush's plan did absolutely NOTHING to "fix" Social Security. It started dismantling it while handing a windfall to Wall Street.) Various Democrats have offered proposals to our other major problems, but again, the Bush camp consistently ignores them. If you aren't aware of them, that's because you get your (dis)information from Limbaugh and other Bush parrots instead of actually looking for nonpartisan sources of factual information.
  2. You have also diverted from your original assertion that the Democrats lack substance, apparently suggesting Republicans in general and Bush specifically did offer substance. As I said, the Bush 2004 campaign was based on innuendo, character assassination, empty rhetoric, blatant fear-mongering, and outright disinformation. You offered nothing to refute this, instead repeating your circular argument that Bush supporters weren't duped because they don't recognize they were duped. Irrational and irrelevant.
  3. You are in no position to accuse others of spouting talking points when you've repeatedly admitted (in other threads) that you ignore anything you disagree with.
  4. The "fact" is your opinion about the article is an opinion, NOT a fact. That said, your comment is another straw man. Kindly show us where I said the article is wrong.
1. That was the question I posed in the OP if you have no insight then why are you here.
If that single sentence was the only point of your OP, why did you waste so much bandwidth and so much of our time with hundreds of words of unformatted text? Nice dodge, however, once again ignoring everything I said. I'll assume you're conceding you have no answers.


2. Are you joking, you believe they were duped I do not. Is that a tautology no in fact it isn't.
That's fine, as long as we're clear you're offering an unsupported opinion. Your claim that the Democrats have no substance is itself without substance. We'll consider it withdrawn.


3. Try to keep to the OP instead of just spouting off other threads.
Take your own advice. I was responding directly to your comment about talking points.


4. Yes, quite true it is my opinion but I've heard only weak arguments to in fact state that the article is anything but true.
"That said, your comment is another straw man. Kindly show us where I said the article is wrong."
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
Originally posted by: jlmadyson
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: jlmadyson

Funny, because not one solution or proposal for that matter had been offered to the questions I asked. Who isn't listening now. Now you may want to listen to this you can provide all the talking points you want but the fact is the article is right on point.

Once again.....the answers are there for those that seek them out.

Senator seeks to stop gasoline exports to Iran

I also found this post on another site that I would like for you to reply to. The poster makes some very valid point WRT Iran. I don't agree with all of the comments, but I have bolded a couple that I would like you to respond to and to also clearly define what your position or that of the Bush administration is. I haven't heard anything from them except for Iraq-like hyperbole and really don't have a clue as to what they are proposing be done.

An article I saw today specifically states that both the Republicans and the Democrats are "fractured" over the Iran issue, devolving into four camps: the "hawks", the "appeasers", the "negotiators", and the "realists".

Let me lay out the FACTS again:

1) Nothing Iran is doing is illegal under its obligations to the NPT.

2) Even if Iran began enriching unanium for the purpose of producing a nuclear weapon, it would STILL be FIVE TO TEN YEARS before they can even produce ONE single gun-model nuclear weapon - let alone one that can be DELIVERED by any missile they currently have in their inventory or are developing.

3) The Iranians have gone FAR beyond their obligations under the NPT to attempt to satisfy the Europeans and the IAEA that their intentions are peaceful. (I'm not saying they DON'T want a nuclear weapon, even if THEY say that. I'm assuming they DO. But NOTHING they've done publicly indicates that they are currently pursuing such.)

4) The Iranians already HAVE the ultimate nuclear weapon - the oil bourse denominated in Euros which goes into operation in March of this year. The Iranian nuclear program is just a SMOKESCREEN for the REAL threat to the United States - and the neocons know this. This article here lays it all out:

http://www.countercurrents.org/us-petrov200106.htm

5) Any argument based on the current President Ahmadinejad's hyperbolic comments about Israel and the Holocaust is IRRELEVANT to the discussion. These comments are propaganda on a par with Bush's proclamations about "spreading democracy" everywhere. It's ruminant evacuation and has nothing to do with actual government policies in Iran.

6) As long as Israel has nuclear weapons and the US - also a possessor of nuclear weapons - is willing to threaten non-nuclear states with nuclear weapons - as we have EXPLICITLY done - then EVERY country in the Middle East will want nuclear weapons. Remove the threat - remove the proliferation. It's that fraggin' simple, folks! Force Israel to unilaterally diasrm ALL of its nuclear weapons. Granted, every state is fascist by definition, and all of them will continue to want to be the Big Kahuna in the region, so many of them might still want to obtain such weapons. But it will be a lot easier to negotiate to restrain them in the face of the fact that there are no weapons already in the region than it will be to do so with Israel sitting there with 100-400 weapons, including nuclear cruise missiles on submarines in the Gulf - owned by a state whose Zionist idealogue leaders have repeatedly stated their intention to dominate the entire Middle East from the Nile to the Euphrates.

7) There is NO incentive for anybody dealing with Iran - Russia, China, Europe - to pressure Iran not to go nuclear - and certainly no incentive to impose sanctions on Iran. Iran is a major trading partner with Russia (albeit an oil competitor). China needs Iran's oil. India and Pakistan are planning to building pipelines from Iran into India. None of these countries are in any threat from a nuclear-armed Iran (with the possible exception of Pakistan, and that is still unlikely.)

8) Therefore, sanctions and embargoes are not going to work. Iran is not Libya. Iran is not Iraq. The situations are sufficiently different that it is very unlikely sanctions - which were ineffective in Iraq except to kill millions of children - are likely to work well. One should also question the use of sanctions against ANY country - considering the effects on Iraq. Do we want to starve another half million children just to pressure another government? Do the people on this site want to say with Madeleine Allbright, "Well, we think it's worth it?"

9) The article recommends policy change, rather than regime change. Yes, this is a very good idea. And how do you expect the Bush administration to implement it, when you have Christian neocon fanatics like John Bolton at the helm at the UN? When you have Zionist fanatics like Benjamin Netanyahu in Israel urging military strikes on Iran with or without the support of the US military?

The only thing I can say about the points you bolded is if Iran were doing there part to meet the obligations of the IAEA why did they refer them to the council?

But more importantly which is the correct approach? Bayh's take or the points you bolded? Further, will the Democrat party get behind Bayh's amendment because the points you bolded and Bayh's view seem quite at opposite ends.

"To forestall the need for nuclear force, we need tough action now, including economic sanctions, cultural sanctions, cutting off their supply of gasoline, (arms) sales, those kind of things, to convince the radical leaders of Iran that nuclear weapons are something they just cannot have," Bayh said on Fox News Channel's "Fox and Friends" morning program.

Also there is the question of how will the Democrats take the House and Senate in 06?

Iran was recommened to the council b/c of concealment violations related to their nuclear program prior to 2003. As you can see here on the IAEA's site, there is a .pdf with their most recent findings (starting on page 23) which seem to point towards full disclosure. The recommendation was/is a way to force Iran to sign a new agreement pertaining to their nuclear activities.

As for the correct approach....that remains to be seen. I think that there is something to be said for Obama's suggested approach of exploring possible sanctions while possibly keeping precision missile strikes on the table. It worked in helping to disarm Saddam (although we went into Iraq anyway). It could work in Iran as well.

As for retaking the House and Senate, I think that that is the easiest of things to address. The Dems would need to simply put out a clear, concise message as to what the party platform (on a broad scale) is for and them make sure that the Repubs recent past and current scandals are still brought to light in a way that isn't whiney or like some of their own weren't aren't just as capable or even culpable.
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
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I think the most telling aspect of the failure of the Dems to take advantage of GOP missteps is the message told after the SOTU. The Dems message was "There is a better way"

and that says NOTHING! what is the better way? its weak! Its wishywashy

its time for the Dems to stop being wishwashy
 

jlmadyson

Platinum Member
Aug 13, 2004
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Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: jlmadyson
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
You're growing tiring. You continue to spin and evade without ever addressing points raised. Very dishonest, and it suggests you don't really believe your own rhetoric, or at least you've never thought about it enough to be able to support it. Let's review:
  1. I don't know what the Democrats' proposals are on Iran because I'm not a Democrat, nor do I receive any of their mailings, nor do I consider Iran that pressing compared to other issues, no matter how much the Bush propaganda machine beats their war drums.

    More to the point, you are creating a straw man to attack instead of responding to actual arguments. The Dems' position on Iran specifically is irrelevant to the original claim that the Dems have "no possible solutions to our major problems, such as SS". That is simply false. The Democrats did propose a number of alternatives to "fixing" Social Security, but the Bush camp dismissed all of them without consideration. (And as a side note, the whole premise of that example is a joke since Bush's plan did absolutely NOTHING to "fix" Social Security. It started dismantling it while handing a windfall to Wall Street.) Various Democrats have offered proposals to our other major problems, but again, the Bush camp consistently ignores them. If you aren't aware of them, that's because you get your (dis)information from Limbaugh and other Bush parrots instead of actually looking for nonpartisan sources of factual information.
  2. You have also diverted from your original assertion that the Democrats lack substance, apparently suggesting Republicans in general and Bush specifically did offer substance. As I said, the Bush 2004 campaign was based on innuendo, character assassination, empty rhetoric, blatant fear-mongering, and outright disinformation. You offered nothing to refute this, instead repeating your circular argument that Bush supporters weren't duped because they don't recognize they were duped. Irrational and irrelevant.
  3. You are in no position to accuse others of spouting talking points when you've repeatedly admitted (in other threads) that you ignore anything you disagree with.
  4. The "fact" is your opinion about the article is an opinion, NOT a fact. That said, your comment is another straw man. Kindly show us where I said the article is wrong.
1. That was the question I posed in the OP if you have no insight then why are you here.
If that single sentence was the only point of your OP, why did you waste so much bandwidth and so much of our time with hundreds of words of unformatted text? Nice dodge, however, once again ignoring everything I said. I'll assume you're conceding you have no answers.


2. Are you joking, you believe they were duped I do not. Is that a tautology no in fact it isn't.
That's fine, as long as we're clear you're offering an unsupported opinion. Your claim that the Democrats have no substance is itself without substance. We'll consider it withdrawn.


3. Try to keep to the OP instead of just spouting off other threads.
Take your own advice. I was reponding directly to your comment about talking points.


4. Yes, quite true it is my opinion but I've heard only weak arguments to in fact state that the article is anything but true.
"That said, your comment is another straw man. Kindly show us where I said the article is wrong."

The trolling continues and offers nothing of substance point made.
 

jlmadyson

Platinum Member
Aug 13, 2004
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Originally posted by: OrByte
I think the most telling aspect of the failure of the Dems to take advantage of GOP missteps is the message told after the SOTU. The Dems message was "There is a better way"

and that says NOTHING! what is the better way? its weak! Its wishywashy

its time for the Dems to stop being wishwashy

I totally agree.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
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Originally posted by: jlmadyson
The trolling continues and offers nothing of substance point made.
If you don't want me to address your duhversions, stop making them. Show us you're capable of something besides parroting BushCo propaganda points. I directly addressed each of your "points". Try it sometime. You continue to dodge most of mine, just like you have in every other thread.
 

jlmadyson

Platinum Member
Aug 13, 2004
2,201
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Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: jlmadyson
The trolling continues and offers nothing of substance point made.
If you don't want me to address your duhversions, stop making them. Show us you're capable of something besides parroting BushCo propaganda points. I directly addressed each of your "points". Try it sometime. You continue to dodge most of mine, just like you have in every other thread.

How about you attempt to answer the main question of this post, the OP.

How will the Dems take back the Senate and House in 06? Too complex?
 

Aisengard

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2005
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If you actually listened BEYOND "there is a better way," they offered EXAMPLES of the better ways!

The real message of the Democratic response was, that partisan politics solves nothing, and when Republicans and Democrats work together, great things can be done. For example the 90s, with a Republican Congress and a Democratic President.

I think the problem is that people like yourselves are simply too lazy to think about what is being said. You simpletons need strong, action words like "freedom" and "victory" and "terror" to get you motivated into agreeing. It's funny, because Bush offers so little substance in his rhetoric, and when the Democrats do offer substance, you stop listening, because you don't hear interesting action words. It's like the listening comprehension of a third-grader.

 

jlmadyson

Platinum Member
Aug 13, 2004
2,201
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Originally posted by: Aisengard
If you actually listened BEYOND "there is a better way," they offered EXAMPLES of the better ways!

The real message of the Democratic response was, that partisan politics solves nothing, and when Republicans and Democrats work together, great things can be done. For example the 90s, with a Republican Congress and a Democratic President.

I think the problem is that people like yourselves are simply too lazy to think about what is being said. You simpletons need strong, action words like "freedom" and "victory" and "terror" to get you motivated into agreeing. It's funny, because Bush offers so little substance in his rhetoric, and when the Democrats do offer substance, you stop listening, because you don't hear interesting action words. It's like the listening comprehension of a third-grader.

Interesting point, but in fact as someone posted on the Iran issue I believe Senator Bayh's amendment is a good idea and I hope the Dem caucus gets behind it. As Senator Obama puts it;

We have been in a reactive posture for too long. I think we have been very good at saying no, but not good enough at saying yes."
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,303
144
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Originally posted by: Aisengard
If you actually listened BEYOND "there is a better way," they offered EXAMPLES of the better ways!

The real message of the Democratic response was, that partisan politics solves nothing, and when Republicans and Democrats work together, great things can be done. For example the 90s, with a Republican Congress and a Democratic President.
I think the problem is that people like yourselves are simply too lazy to think about what is being said. You simpletons need strong, action words like "freedom" and "victory" and "terror" to get you motivated into agreeing. It's funny, because Bush offers so little substance in his rhetoric, and when the Democrats do offer substance, you stop listening, because you don't hear interesting action words. It's like the listening comprehension of a third-grader.
Wow who pissed in your wheaties smart guy? the "real message" you stated above says NOTHING. Yes I totally need to hear words like Civil Liberties, Warantless Wiretaps, Health AND Protection. You think the american sheeple are going to blindly follow a message that says, "There is a better way.." HELL NO, people will lose interest and move on. The brilliant thing about the GOP message is that it is clear, people want security, and people want an end to terror.

What is the Dems response? "There is a better way"

thats just pathetic.

Rainsford outlines a perfectly acceptable alternative and that means making pointed statements on civil liberties, and on Bush's and the GOPs power grabbing. Take the kiddie gloves off for chrissakes the opportunities arent going to get any better.

When was the last time you heard about Delay? or Libby? or Rove? or all the other troubles the GOP are in right now. The Dems need to step it up, sheeple's attention span is way to short.

 

Aisengard

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2005
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Originally posted by: OrByte
Originally posted by: Aisengard
If you actually listened BEYOND "there is a better way," they offered EXAMPLES of the better ways!

The real message of the Democratic response was, that partisan politics solves nothing, and when Republicans and Democrats work together, great things can be done. For example the 90s, with a Republican Congress and a Democratic President.
I think the problem is that people like yourselves are simply too lazy to think about what is being said. You simpletons need strong, action words like "freedom" and "victory" and "terror" to get you motivated into agreeing. It's funny, because Bush offers so little substance in his rhetoric, and when the Democrats do offer substance, you stop listening, because you don't hear interesting action words. It's like the listening comprehension of a third-grader.
Wow who pissed in your wheaties smart guy? the "real message" you stated above says NOTHING. Yes I totally need to hear words like Civil Liberties, Warantless Wiretaps, Health AND Protection. You think the american sheeple are going to blindly follow a message that says, "There is a better way.." HELL NO, people will lose interest and move on. The brilliant thing about the GOP message is that it is clear, people want security, and people want an end to terror.

What is the Dems response? "There is a better way"

thats just pathetic.

Rainsford outlines a perfectly acceptable alternative and that means making pointed statements on civil liberties, and on Bush's and the GOPs power grabbing. Take the kiddie gloves off for chrissakes the opportunities arent going to get any better.

When was the last time you heard about Delay? or Libby? or Rove? or all the other troubles the GOP are in right now. The Dems need to step it up, sheeple's attention span is way to short.

Are you saying that the Democrats have a message, but aren't saying it as clearly as they should, or that they don't have a message at all? Your post confused me.
 
Oct 30, 2004
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Perhaps if the Democrats would come out and advocate economic policies that would benefit the American middle class and lower-middle class, voters might get excited. How about a reduction in legal immigration (aka mass immigration) and the elimination of illegal immigration along with the immediate deportation of all illegal aliens? How about advocating an end to the economic destruction caused by the economic force of global labor wage arbitrage? How about enacting tarrifs to combat foreign outsourcing (arbitrage)? How about ending the H-1B and L-1 visa programs and requiring that all foreigners working in the U.S. with those visas must leave the country within 90 days? (Can you say job creation for Americans?)

But the Dem's are pussies and altruists, and they don't have a sense of rational national economic selfish interest. They can't oppose immigration because that goes against being an altruist and they would fear being labelled as racists by their own alleged supporters. So, instead, all they can really do is say, "We need more social welfare programs," and "We are not the Republicans, so vote for us."

Both parties are god-awful and traitorous, and almost all of their members should be booted out of Congress by the electorate.